Orthodox preterism/amillenialism

[Bible2]

jduck1986 said in post 29:

Someone like Gary DeMar believes Matthew 24 is entirely about AD 70.

Just as the highly detailed tribulation events of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 find no historical fulfillment, so the tribulation events of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 find no historical fulfillment. For example, Luke 21:24 refers to the same future treading down of Jerusalem by the Gentiles as Revelation 11:2b, during the Antichrist's future, literal 42-month worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), the details of which time period are shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13). The myriad details of these chapters have never been fulfilled. Similarly, Jesus' 2nd coming and the church's gathering together (rapture) in Matthew 24:30-31 (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) have never been fulfilled, but must occur "immediately after" the future tribulation of Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).

Also, the end of the 2nd temple building (also called Herod's temple building) in 70 AD didn't fulfill Matthew 24:2. For the stones of the 2nd temple's Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall) still stand today one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus spoke that prophecy. Matthew 24:2 included the Wailing Wall, for Matthew 24:2 wasn't referring only to the single, 2nd temple building which stood in the center of the Temple Mount and which contained the holy place and the most holy place, but was referring to "all these things", all the plural "buildings"/structures/oikodome (G3619) of the entire 2nd temple complex (Matthew 24:1). Indeed, Matthew 24:2 could even have been spoken just to the north and west of the Wailing Wall. For it was spoken just after Jesus had departed from the temple complex (Matthew 24:1), and one of the main temple complex exits (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) was just to the north of the Wailing Wall, and at the same level as the top of the Temple Mount (see the temple-complex map-insert in the December, 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine).

Also, in Matthew 24:2, the "here" can include not just the entire 2nd temple complex, but every structure throughout Jerusalem. For the similar statement in Luke 19:44 applied to the whole city (Luke 19:41-44). Matthew 24:2 and Luke 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before and at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

 

[Bible2]

jduck1986 said in post 29:

Someone like Gary DeMar believes Matthew 24 is entirely about AD 70.

Preterism (whether full or partial), as well as historicism (in its various modern forms), and pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, could all be animated by the same spirit of fear: that the church alive today throughout the world would otherwise have to physically suffer through the future, almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For these 5 views of preterism, historicism, pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, in their different ways, each gives a mistaken assurance to the church alive today that it won't have to physically suffer through that tribulation.

Preterism says that the tribulation happened in 70 AD (or a few years before and including 70 AD). Historicism says that it happened over a long period in history (e.g. during the rise and height of the RCC's power in Europe during the Middle Ages and after, or during the rise and spread of Islam in the Middle East and elsewhere during the Middle Ages and after). Pre-tribulation rapturism says that Jesus will return and rapture the church into the 3rd heaven before the tribulation begins. Symbolicism says that the tribulation is only symbolic of theological themes which those in the church have always had to struggle with (e.g. Matthew 6:24), and is symbolic of only-local physical persecutions which some in the church have always had to face, and are still facing today in some places. And spiritualism says that the tribulation is only spiritual events which go on only within the hearts of individuals.

But when the almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 begins in our future, the shaky doctrinal wall which (in their different ways) these 5 views have each tried to build up between the church and the tribulation, will be completely shattered (Ezekiel 13:10-12) as the church worldwide begins to physically suffer through the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-31, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). These 5 views may have left some in the church unprepared mentally to undergo this physical suffering, to where these 5 views could even contribute to some in the church ultimately losing their salvation because of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12) during the tribulation, when they become "offended" that God is making them and their little ones physically suffer through it (Matthew 24:9-12, Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22, Luke 8:13).

Even though the church today throughout the world will have to physically suffer through the future tribulation, the church need not fear this (cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13, Revelation 2:10). For even though many in the church will suffer and die during that time (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), this will be to their gain, as it will bring their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8; see also 2 Corinthians 4:17-18; 2 Timothy 2:12), and it won't rob them of the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

 

[BABerean2]

Note that Revelation 19:19-21 on the one hand, and Revelation 20:7-9 and Ezekiel chapters 38-39 on the other, are 2 different events, separated by over 1,000 years (Revelation 19:19 to 20:9). After the first event, Satan will be bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3), while after the 2nd event, he will be cast into the lake of fire to suffer forever (Revelation 20:10).

Revelation 19:19-21 is the battle at Jesus' 2nd coming, which Zechariah 14:2-5 shows will occur at Jerusalem. After that battle will occur Jesus' physical reign on the earth (Zechariah 14:9-21) with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). It won't be until after the 1,000 years that the Gog/Magog rebellion will occur (Revelation 20:7-9, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).



Actually, mountains can be destroyed more than one time. For God can miraculously raise mountains up (Isaiah 2:2-3).

Brother B2,


Did you actually read all of the article in the link or did you pass judgment on the post based on your prior viewpoint?

If you carefully examined the information and gave an opinion based on the information in the article, then I can understand your response.

The guy who wrote the article is actually premill.


Scripture clearly states that the evil angles are bound now.


2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Jud_1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.



The beast ascends out of the pit in Revelation chapter 11.
So where is he now?


Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.



Will these evil angels who are bound now, be released prior to Armageddon and then be bound again by Christ at his Second Coming to be released again 1,000 years after His Second Coming?




Is the Gog Magog War the Battle of Armageddon ?
Gog of Magog - Here a little, there a little - Prophecy


.

 

[ebedmelech]

BABerean2, Bible2 normally (and in some cases smartly), responds with the same cut and paste answers.

Don't expect to engage him on what he believes based on his understanding of eschatology. He will simply post the same thing over and over. Compare his response above to this link from a response posted 3 November 2013:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7784721-3/

That's is how Bible2 works it.

 

[Notrash]

You can pick up lots of info on various perspectives from all angles at preterist archive .org

 

[ron4shua]

Thank you brother Japsah , thank you for your astute observation and keen assertional take of my comment to the thread entitled “ Orthodox preterism/amillenialism . “


Brother Jduck 1986 , asked for “ … websites or books on amillenialism and orthodox preterism … “ . Had I included your comment “ …. "futurism" "dispensationalism", or any similar rubbish mentioned in Scripture …. “ couldn't it have been construed by the liberal MODs here at
CF as a posting violation ?
Your liberty of the written English word is an eye opener for this one ; a : physically harmful or destructive to living beings <noxious waste>. b : constituting a harmful influence on mind or behavior; especially : morally corrupting ...
Dictionary and Thesaurus | Merriam-Webster.com
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/noxious


Those &#8220; hand-wrought doctrines &#8220; you injected into your post , is another eye opener for me .
I'm astounded a Believer in Jesus 'YAHshua' with over 6,000 posts thinks &#8220; Christian Doctrines &#8220; are dreamed up by &#8220; handwriting them on paper or any other material . Doctrines , even DOGMA comes from the human intellect ;(Latin intelligere &#8212; inter and legere &#8212; to choose between, to discern; Greek nous; German Vernunft, Verstand; French intellect; Italian intelletto). The faculty of ...
NEW ADVENT: Home
www.newadvent.org/cathen/08066a.htm


Had I wished to do a Mexican hat dance on CF rules , I'd have added . &#8220; Above all after not trusting any word not in original early MSS , keep in understanding none of the early manuscripts sported ANY punctuation & to this day , do not . That was left up to the translators & the POWERS that paid the bills . Miss translated words are many , be on the alert for the blatant ones like &#8220; cross &#8220; ;
Topic: Cross, Crucify
&ltA-1,Noun,4716,stauros>
denotes, primarily, "an upright pale or stake." On such malefactors were nailed for execution. Both the noun and the verb stauroo, "to fasten to a stake or pale," are originally to be distinguished from the ecclesiastical form of a two beamed "cross." The shape of the latter had its origin in ancient Chaldea, and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz (being in the shape of the mystic Tau, the initial of his name) in that country and in adjacent lands, including Egypt. By the middle of the 3rd cent. A.D. the churches had either departed from, or had travestied, certain doctrines of the Christian faith. In order to increase the prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols. Hence the Tau or T, in its most frequent form, with the cross-piece lowered, was adopted to stand for the "cross" of Christ.
As for the Chi, or X, which Constantine declared he had seen in a vision leading him to champion the Christian faith, that letter was the initial of the word "Christ" and had nothing to do with "the Cross" (for xulon, "a timber beam, a tree," as used for the stauros, see under TREE).
The method of execution was borrowed by the Greeks and Romans from the Phoenicians. The stauros denotes (a) "the cross, or stake itself," e.g., Matt. 27:32; (b) "the crucifixion suffered," e.g., 1 Cor. 1:17,18, where "the word of the cross," RV, stands for the Gospel; Gal. 5:11, where crucifixion is metaphorically used of the renunciation of the world, that characterizes the true Christian life; Gal. 6:12,14; Eph. 2:16; Phil. 3:18.
The judicial custom by which the condemned person carried his stake to the place of execution, was applied by the Lord to those sufferings by which His faithful followers were to express their fellowship with Him, e.g., Matt. 10:38.
&ltB-1,Verb,4717,stauroo>
signifies (a) "the act of crucifixion," e.g., Matt. 20:19; (b) metaphorically, "the putting off of the flesh with its passions and lusts," a condition fulfilled in the case of those who are "of Christ Jesus," Gal. 5:24, RV; so of the relationship between the believer and the world, Gal. 6:14.
&ltB-2,Verb,4957,sustauroo>
"to crucify with" (su, "for," sun, "with"), is used (a) of actual "crucifixion" in company with another, Matt. 27:44; Mark 15:32; John 19:32 (b) metaphorically, of spiritual identification with Christ in His death, Rom. 6:6; Gal. 2:20.
&ltB-3,Verb,388,anastauroo>
(ana, again) is used in Heb. 6:6 of Hebrew apostates, who as merely nominal Christians, in turning back to Judaism, were thereby virtually guilty of "crucifying" Christ again.
&ltB-4,Verb,4362,prospegnumi>
"to fix or fasten to anything" (pros, "to," pegnumi, "to fix"), is used of the "crucifixion" of Christ, Acts 2:23.
Vines Topical Bible



If any truth seeker has some expendable time , do a word hunt for , 4716,stauros # two and 4716,stauros # three . All you'll find is &#8220; THE &#8220; 4716,stauros ! The &#8220; act of crucifixion , was , in our Master's case , &#8220; hand ON hand &#8220; , read it for yourself . It's there in many languages .



Usage Problem Totally or offensively conspicuous or obtrusive: a blatant lie. 2. Unpleasantly loud and noisy: "There are those who find the trombones blatant ...
www.thefreedictionary.com
www.thefreedictionary.com/blatant


I'm elated you got a &#8220; <Laugh> &#8220; from my honest offerings , which tells me someone is reading my attempts of levity . Be assured my post was not in &#8220; lack of appropriate seriousness or earnestness &#8220; . Just thread guided & incomplete as you have kindly added , thanks .


I do take issue with your signature , my brother .


Mark 13:35&#8220;Watch therefore, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming &#8211; in the evening or at midnight, or at the crowing of the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], or in the morning,
36lest, coming suddenly, he should find you sleeping.
37&#8220;And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch!&#8221; (ISR)
&#8220; .. for you .. &#8220;, &#8221;... find you &#8230; &#8220;, ... to you &#8230; &#8220;, &#8220; &#8230; I say to ALL : Watch !&#8221; Dose this ( your signature ) sound , in English as a single mass fly away or &#8220; rapture &#8220; ? Color me a hairy-tick if YOUR verse doesn't sounds akin to &#8220; each in their own time &#8220; ! In your &#8220; about me &#8220; you claim &#8220;
Preterist, Amillennialism &#8220; , words you point to as &#8220; I don't see "futurism" "dispensationalism", or any similar rubbish mentioned in Scripture, either, so I guess that wraps it up for those noxious, hand-wrought doctrines. &#8220; , &#8220; similar rubbish &#8220; ? Are you implying , those doctrines because not in &#8220; Scripture &#8220; are in your words &#8220; rubbish ?


I only scratched a few pages in my Google for your &#8220; Brother Buford &#8220;, with zero findings .
If I were you I'd hold the Brother suspect . Why your thinking ? Your signature or you miss quoted him , thinks there is &#8220; THE Bible &#8220; . The word Bible in translation is a pagan word meaning &#8220; pagan manuscript &#8220; . Scripture is correct in , I believe your , Brother Buford intent . There are hundreds of Scripture translated &#8220; VERSIONS &#8220; .
Many are incorrectly called &#8220; THE Bible &#8220; meaning the one & only , not true .

Yes it does matter to many of us &#8220; truth seekers &#8220;.


John 4:23&#8220;But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father also does seek such to worship Him.
24&#8220;Elohim is Spirit, and those who worship Him need to worship in spirit and truth.&#8221;


http://www.menfak.no/bibelprog/vines?word=%AFt0002504


Bible starts with a &#8220;B&#8221; ? ; Vines Topical Bible
Can you , my brother find bible on this link ?


Anglican ? Is this your denomination ? The Diocese of the South,<br>The Southern Episcopal Church


I think I know what you disbelieve , I was trying to find some common Terra Firma , we , you & I may see eye to eye . Are you truly a &#8220; deacon (jipsah) &#8220; in an assemble like this group , I can't find you ?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Episcopal_Diocese_of_Tennessee


Live long , and prosper , my Brother in Messiah .

 

[Straightshot]

I am curious ron

What movement or sect is your source for the above posting?

I see a Catholic/Jewish slant which is a strange combination

Please clarify

 

[ron4shua]

Greetings Brother Straightshot , I'm going to assume you are asking what flavor religious fanatic & with what spice is used composing a statement as is post # 46 . Thank you for asking , my Brother .
I believe were is no assemble with all our Elohim's truth . No assemble that doesn't have some of our Elohim's truth . If one group had a lock on all the Wisdom of Elohim YAH , that group would quickly buy & sell it to those groups that didn't have it by enslaving then , lording over them .


The 50,000 denominational thing is a two fold test by our Elohim's infinite Wisdom . The testing is for all those folks that know what the &#8220; Good News &#8220; message is & has obeyed it's Jesus, YAHshua given commanded dictates .
The A part of the A & B testing , Love ALL , Love your Elohim with all your heart , mind ,etc etc , and your neighbor as you love yourself . Including the Masters words , your enemies & those that hate & would love to kill you .
The B part , 1&#8220;Do not judge, lest you be judged.
2&#8220;For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged. And with the same measure you use, it shall be measured to you. (ISR)

Part B is a bear , Elohim loving & fearing folks read this and agree . In their next breath point a bony finger at a different group of believers , announcing &#8220; those poor fools are going to burn in &#8220; hell&#8221; forever & ever , poor people .
In reality , they just pronounced judgment upon themselves . Judgment is complete , &#8220; the books will be opened and read &#8220; .
I hold a believer in the Hebrew Elohim , must learn first testament Hebrew practices . I love a charismatic Pentecostal you know a pew jumping charismatic tambourine playing dancing in the aisles like King David did . Multiracial assembles , representatives of all Elohim's children . I don't attend organized religious services regularly , in fact very infrequently .
Our Brother Japash , isn't an adolescent , he chose Jesus 47 years ago . That alone commands respect . He may have forgotten more than I claim I understand . I take no pleasure in that post . Believe it or not I struggled composing it in love , just to rattle his cage for I know he's a lot bigger man than some of his posts on this thread . No matter what his response to my cage shaking , I'll love him as our Masters instructions commands .
Your Brother in Messiah , ron .

 

[Jipsah]

Could be, I reckon. Report it and see.

Your liberty of the written English word is an eye opener for this one ; a : physically harmful or destructive to living beings <noxious waste>. b : constituting a harmful influence on mind or behavior; especially : morally corrupting ...

Def B was the one I was after.

I'm astounded a Believer in Jesus 'YAHshua' with over 6,000 posts thinks “ Christian Doctrines “ are dreamed up by “ handwriting them on paper or any other material .

Some certainly are. Dispensational Futurism is one such.

Doctrines , even DOGMA comes from the human intellect

Some moreso than others, wouldn't you agree?

Miss translated words are many , be on the alert for the blatant ones like “ cross “ ;

Sounds like a bit of JW doctrine there, the whole "torture stake" thing of theirs. Bogus.

The shape of the latter had its origin in ancient Chaldea, and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz (being in the shape of the mystic Tau, the initial of his name)

Pseudo-historical baloney.

 

[Jipsah]

And taking back up where I left off.

In your “ about me “ you claim “Preterist, Amillennialism “ , words you point to as don't see "futurism" "dispensationalism", or any similar rubbish mentioned in Scripture, either, so I guess that wraps it up for those noxious, hand-wrought doctrines. “ , “ similar rubbish “ ? Are you implying , those doctrines because not in “ Scripture “ are in your words “ rubbish ?

No implication there, I'm saying it plainly. Futurism (except for the future physical return of our Lord) is rubbish. Dispensationalism is also rubbish. Neither can be derived from Scripture except by wholesale eisegesis, wildly "spiritualizing" or literalizing" Scriptures, and completely ignoring historical fact. It's the sort of arglebargle you get when you begin with an assumption, and then set about to find "evidence" to "prove" it with little or no regard for the truth.

I only scratched a few pages in my Google for your “ Brother Buford “, with zero findings .

That's a shame, BB deserves to be better known. He's probably not among the world's great theologians, but he has a gift for cutting through religious flapdoodle and conveying what's actually being said.

If I were you I'd hold the Brother suspect . Why your thinking ? Your signature or you miss quoted him , thinks there is “ THE Bible “ . The word Bible in translation is a pagan word meaning “ pagan manuscript “ .

Sorry, that's the sort of gibberish that would have Buford giving you the horselaugh. "Bible" actually goes back to the Greek word for "books", and that's all it means. Now the ancient Greeks were pagans, but so were most of the folks who created the words that we use.

]Anglican ? Is this your denomination ? The Diocese of the South,<br>The Southern Episcopal Church

Nope, but I've attended mass at the Southern Episcopal church in Nashville before. I'm a member of Song Shin Episcopal Church, which is, at least nominally, under the authority of the ECUSA/TEC (whichever you prefer). I say nominally, because it's a Korean congregation, and as the old saying runs, "Brittania rules the waves, but Koreans waive the rules." For the most art, the diocese doesn't bother us and we don't bother them.

I think I know what you disbelieve , I was trying to find some common Terra Firma

Just from this post I doubt that there is any.

. Are you truly a “ deacon (jipsah) “ in an assemble like this group , I can't find you ?

It's unlikely that a search for "jipsah" is gpnna find me, since a lot of people hold that title, but when it's written in Roman (Pagan!) letters it's generally translated to "deacon" so as to make sense. Same if you look up another of my titles, "seonsaengnim" (which is not how I Romanize it, but nobody asked me). You unlikely to find me by googling it because in would simply be written as "teacher".

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You might be further ahead not wasting your time on this, since they are based on fantasy.

Preterist checking in...........

An apt title for this board........

.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You can pick up lots of info on various perspectives from all angles at preterist archive .org

I favor Luke 21:20 so I found this topic interesting......[Actually, Luke is my favorite Gospel over all, next to the Gospel of John]

https://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/p/pella-flight.html

Luke 21:20-22 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies.. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it; for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written." RSV


Remember Pella | Matthew 24:16 | Did Jerusalem Christians Flee to Pella? | Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War | The Jewish Revolt Against the Romans | Map of Ancient Israel | Audio Sermon : The Flight (of the Christians) To Pella | Symeon and the Flight to Pella - The Secret Legacy of Jesus:
"this centuries-old underground stream of Christ’s original teachings remained alive and surfaced again in Colonial America, where the Founding Fathers used teachings to establish what they believed would be a “New Jerusalem.” With the rise of a fundamentalist Christianity, this potent spiritual vision was lost, but it can be recovered and used to bring about the reconciliation of Christians, Jews, and Muslims."

Eusebius: "The members of the Jerusalem church by means of an oracle, given by revelation to acceptable persons there, were ordered to leave the city before the war began and settle in a town in Peraea called Pella." Book III, 5:4

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I am curious ron
What movement or sect is your source for the above posting?
I see a Catholic/Jewish slant which is a strange combination

Please clarify

The Pope and Jews both wear the same kind of head caps..........

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Orthodox preterism/amillenialism

You can pick up lots of info on various perspectives from all angles at preterist archive .org

Yes. Great site!

The Preterist Archive of Realized Eschatology

Partial Preterism at PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterism

Amillennialism Study Archive

William Vincent: Propositions of Preterist-Amillennialism (2017)

1.) The two major New Testament prophecies, the Olivet prophecy (Matt 24, Luke 21 & Mark 13) and the Revelation of St. John have, as a primary chronological focus, the events leading up to and including the fall of Jerusalem 70AD. The fall of Jerusalem is a necessary eschatological event. It bears witness to the Kingship of Christ as His enemies are made His footstool (Ps 110:1).
It demonstrates that the old Mosaic system, like the manna of the wilderness left to the next day, is full of worms. It finishes every legal aspect of the Old Covenant, therefore finishing it utterly.

Thus, all that was good and blessed in the Old Covenant is full and complete in the Church through Christ, and all that was judgment was finished when Jerusalem fell.
===============