Orthodox perspective on self-defense

[Dietrich Johnson]

Is there an official Orthodox stance on "self-defense"?

 

[ArmyMatt]

sinful but sometimes necessary in our fallen state.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I can't remember the resource but I recall it saying that the Orthodox Church understands the necessity to fight either on the offensive or defensive if the conflict is justified. But even in a justified conflict the effects of war still have a detrimental spiritual effect on us. Even in the case of victory in a justified conflict it only reinforces our brokenness.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I can't remember the resource but I recall it saying that the Orthodox Church understands the necessity to fight either on the offensive or defensive if the conflict is justified. But even in a justified conflict the effects of war still have a detrimental spiritual effect on us. Even in the case of victory in a justified conflict it only reinforces our brokenness.

yep

 

[Dietrich Johnson]

yep

What about in non-war situations. I'm thinking of personal, practical situations. Someone breaks into a home, does the Orthodox Church have a stance on whether it is ok to use deadly force to defend oneself in that kind of home invasion scenario?

 

[ArmyMatt]

What about in non-war situations. I'm thinking of personal, practical situations. Someone breaks into a home, does the Orthodox Church have a stance on whether it is ok to use deadly force to defend oneself in that kind of home invasion scenario?

same as I said before. it’s still sinful and needs to be repented of even if necessary considering our fallen state.

 

[Dietrich Johnson]

same as I said before. it’s still sinful and needs to be repented of even if necessary considering our fallen state.

IF it's considered sinful by the Orthodox church to kill someone (even in self-defense), then wouldn't it follow that one should refrain from using deadly force in self-defense in order to avoid sinning?

 

[Aldebaran]

IF it's considered sinful by the Orthodox church to kill someone (even in self-defense), then wouldn't it follow that one should refrain from using deadly force in self-defense in order to avoid sinning?

I was thinking the same thing. If it's considered a sin to defend oneself with deadly force, then the Orthodox Church stance would seem to be that self defense killing is wrong and not to be done.

 

[ArmyMatt]

IF it's considered sinful by the Orthodox church to kill someone (even in self-defense), then wouldn't it follow that one should refrain from using deadly force in self-defense in order to avoid sinning?

yes, but sometimes it’d allow a greater sin if not done

 

[Lukaris]

This is always a fuzzy issue although the Lord must have permitted the disciples to defend themselves.


See Luke 22:35-36

 

[Aldebaran]

This is always a fuzzy issue although the Lord must have permitted the disciples to defend themselves.


See Luke 22:35-36

Most people point to events in the Bible where Christians were persecuted or martyred for their faith, and didn't defend themselves. But it never (AFAIK) addresses instances (at least in the NT) where someone was attacked for their belongings, or gang initiations, or seemingly no reason at all and defended themselves with deadly force. So today, if a gang of thugs kicks open your front door and ties up your wife and daughter and then go searching the house while you're in the bedroom with a pistol, which Bible verse applies? The one about the person who doesn't provide for his own family comes to mind.

 

[Dietrich Johnson]

yes, but sometimes it’d allow a greater sin if not done

Can you give an example? Are you speaking of, for example, the home invasion situation where armed thugs tie up family members and one is hiding in the closet with a pistol?

 

[Andrei D]

I was thinking the same thing. If it's considered a sin to defend oneself with deadly force, then the Orthodox Church stance would seem to be that self defense killing is wrong and not to be done.

Not really. There are very few actions that - in abstract - can be "vouched for" to be sin free. Perhaps NO actions can be "cleared" this way. It all depends on mind state, intent, context, consequences and no man can truly fully judge the action of another, not from the outside, and certainly not in the hypothetical ("what if I had to defend myself and..."). And there are no actions (perhaps, except suicide) that the Church would classify as irredeemable.

"Eastern Christianity does not regard morality in fundamentally juridical / legalistic terms or in the context of abstract philosophy, like the West, but rather everything is subsidiary to theosis, the struggle towards participation by grace in the eternal life of the Holy Trinity."

The Church rarely views things in "black and white" - least of all an act that has so many complex contradictions attached to it like killing in the defense of self or others.

And she never "classifies" people by how sinful they are. She is here for the sick, not for the healthy. We all need healing anyway, and the common worldly view of "deeds" does not equate in a generalizable way, there's no " sin parity".

And the instruments of healing are the mysteries such as penance, perhaps unction, followed at the appropriate time by re-establishing communion. Even that temporary separation from communion is not a "punishment" but a corrective and preventative measure. Penance is individual and dealt with individually, again from the perspective of healing and perfecting oneself towards the ultimate goal. The Lord's forgiveness depends on the Lord's justice and mercy, and not on our reasoning and argumentation (or on our excuses and justifications, either). We don't know how we are forgiven, we can't know that, we don't pretend to know that. What the church does isn't granting permission or giving forgiveness. Penance is not about making up or about coming to terms or about achieving justice. It is about healing. And that healing is personal and, after all is said and done, it IS a mystery.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Can you give an example? Are you speaking of, for example, the home invasion situation where armed thugs tie up family members and one is hiding in the closet with a pistol?

not only tie up, but are threatening to kill the family members.

 

[Daniel Hoseini]

@Dietrich Johnson @Aldebaran The problem with the concept of self-defence is that people understand it differently. If the self-defence was praised by the church, then most people would allow themselves not only to defend their life and health, but also their honor and pride and by doing so they would fight in the same evil spirit of aggression and revenge as their evildoers.

In order for the person to have a moral right for self-defence and possessions of guns, he must be always peaceful and not provoke anyone to aggression. Christian must not violently defend himself from (public) humiliation, but he has a good reason to save his own life, health and possessions from the danger of evildoers. The best thing is to flee and call the police, but alas it is not always possible. Sometimes the situation forces him to fight or shoot back. For example, if some gays or pedophiles want to rape his small boys. Who would not fight back in this case?

Do you have to repent after your self-defence? Yes, but the repentance does not consists in the firm promise of not applying self-defence in the future. It consists in humbling oneself before God and purifying one's own heart from the spirit of pride, anger, rancour and all other negative emotions that can traumatize you for the rest of your life. It is because these emotions are inevitable after a successful self-defence. Especially the delusion or nice feeling of being invincible is very dangerous and if you won't humble yourself, the Lord might humble you by allowing others to beat and humiliate you. And in repentance we also repent of our sinfulness of the past, because of which the Lord probably allowed others to attack us in order to teach us a lesson through suffering.

All this is my opinion, I don't declare God's viewpoint.

May God bless you!

 

[Andrew.H]

I was thinking about this topic the other day when I read about st alexander peresvet, a monk that died in single combat on the battlefield. It didn't quite square with my understandings of the use of violence in reference to Orthodoxy.

I hate to be the one posting meme videos, but I'm also reminded of this incident in Lebanon where a priest and his neighborhood were attacked by Muslims throwing rocks:

https://youtube.com/shorts/wnmQMei-ZKU?feature=share

 

[Daniel Hoseini]

I was thinking about this topic the other day when I read about st alexander peresvet, a monk that died in single combat on the battlefield. It didn't quite square with my understandings of the use of violence in reference to Orthodoxy.

I believed this too. But later I heard the critics say that this story is not mentioned in the original life story of St Sergius of Radonezh, but is written in later documents. Likewise the early sources don't mention the story of St Nickolas of Myrrha slapping Arius in the face. So most probably this kind of stories were made up to influence the mob in a certain direction. And this is not fair.

 

[Daniel Hoseini]

I hate to be the one posting meme videos, but I'm also reminded of this incident in Lebanon where a priest and his neighborhood were attacked by Muslims throwing rocks:

https://youtube.com/shorts/wnmQMei-ZKU?feature=share

This is very bad example. I am ashamed of it. Not only Sermon on the Mount, but also the later canons (rules of the church) forbid it. But may God be his Judge.

 

[Andrew.H]

This is very bad example. I am ashamed of it. Not only Sermon on the Mount, but also the later canons (rules of the church) forbid it. But may God be his Judge.

Yeah that's what I was wondering about as well as the reference about St Nickolas.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I believed this too. But later I heard the critics say that this story is not mentioned in the original life story of St Sergius of Radonezh, but is written in later documents. Likewise the early sources don't mention the story of St Nickolas of Myrrha slapping Arius in the face. So most probably this kind of stories were made up to influence the mob in a certain direction. And this is not fair.

I remember reading about an event where a group of clergy took up arms to defend a town from pagans (who would have slaughtered the town), and a council didn’t defrock them.

could be just a legend, also, as it’s not something historical that I have read all over the place.