Origins of the Universe and Science investigated

[Colter]

I would like to Discuss your observation at a later stage Colter.
However, you are not staying on track with what I am showing you about the origins of the Universe.
What does the extermination of baal worshipers who burned their children alive to Molech, who wanted to destroy Israel when God Himself was present in their midst, have to do with the description of the origins of the Universe.

On the point of the violence of the Old Testament, I would like you to open another tread when we are done here, so I can give you the answers you dont understand.
You forget that we all die, or go sick or feel sorrow.
Why dont you accuse God of that too?

I am really worried about your agenda for it is the umpteenth time I find that you are using Atheistic arguments when posting on these forums. I dont have a problem with this for if you are a sheep in wolfs clothing, it is a welcomed event where I can have the opinion of the Bible and God presented to you.
I anyway like your criticism, but I hope you observe that even Christians with very little scientific experience, understands the nebular theory, and guess what?
They will continue to delve into what I found, and will eventually outgrow any Atheistic argument.
Glory To Jesus Christ, My Creator and Yours.

Where the Atheists are right about science you should acknowledge them and alter your understanding instead of using contorted apologetics which are an embarrassment to spirituality.

I provided a paper on radiometric dating but you balked and made excuses to avoid the facts presented therein lest it prove your pet theories wrong.

 

[Piet Strydom]

Anyhow, lets continue with the Nebular theory!
What was the reason why the Earth changed from a loosely collection of Water, matter and Gas, into a sphere and then into an earth with land and water, as so nicely explained by...
GirdYourLoins...
Gravity!
Think about it for a while.
God spread matter throughout the universe, then He laid the foundations of the planets, and stars and accretion started to develop into proto planets.
In an environment of minus 200 deg Celsius, or lower, these Icy space dust would collect and create an Earth that was Wet and cool. Again the Bible is correct to say that everything was wet in the beginning.
I know there will be someone thinking, where does it say that God laid the foundations of the heavenly bodies, and where did he spread out the Nebular theory.
Follow 2 facts.
one.
The following verses.

• Zechariah 12:1 …, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, …
• Isaiah 51:13 And forgettest the LORD thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth; …

• Isaiah 48:13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: [when] I call unto them, they stand up together.

God created many universes and they appeared when He instructed them to do so. This was done when the foundation of the Earth was laid. Here God even say that the Universe is older than the Earth!

• Isaiah 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; …
• Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, …, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
• Isaiah 45:12 … I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
• Jeremiah 10:12 He hath … and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.
• Jeremiah 51:15 He hath … and hath stretched out the heaven by his understanding.
• Job 9:8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, …

And the description that Gravity compressed the Earth from a wet collection into an earth...

 

[Piet Strydom]

 

[Piet Strydom]

next we will investigate what the Light before day 1 was, and what happened on day 4 with the greater and Smaller Light

 

[Tom 1]

I've gotten to know God by distinguishing truth from error, by following the true voice of the shepherd. Scriptures always have, and always will, reflect the intellectual, moral, and spiritual status of those who create them. The Old Testiment books reflect the thinking of the ages, both enlightened and uninlightened. The Jews just naturally evolved away from the barbarity of the laws that their ansestors created. The doctrine of the inspiration of the scripture leaves the otherwise faithful in the terrible position of having to justify outdated beliefs and practices by outrageing their own sense of justice.

Isn’t that just using current thinking to decide what is true or not? I don’t think that’s an intellectually honest way to approach the scriptures. There’s nothing particularly enlightened about modern western thinking - as in any other period it is dependent on social norms, which will change again depending on what the future brings. God is not subject to our changing opinions or attempts to make him fit into what we might consider to be acceptable.

 

[Piet Strydom]

I provided a paper on radiometric dating but you balked and made excuses to avoid the facts presented therein lest it prove your pet theories wrong.

First, Atheists are not correct and the Bible wrong.
That is an assumption.
Second, I am showing you what the nebular theory is, and not what some scientists are theorizing.
Thirdly, Once I am done, You will realize that every preconceived notion made against the Bible, is so flimsy that the average Christian Bible Believer will run circles around any radio isometric claim against the Bible, and will turn it into evidence in support of the God of the Bible.

 

[Derek Meyer]

Hey, what's your take on the geologists who first hypothesised on Rodenia?

 

[Tom 1]

Could an omnipotent, all-powerful God have created everything He said He did when He said He created it?

He didn’t say what your are implying, i.e a literal, 6 24hr day creative act. To understand what God is teaching through Genesis, you have to understand the symbolic language, the importance of numbers as symbols, the chaistic structures, and the cultural context. Those provide the way in for us to understand what it meant to the people it was originally presented to. Without that understanding, you are simply creating your own meaning based on your interpretation of the English translation, read by you in the 21st C

 

[Colter]

Isn’t that just using current thinking to decide what is true or not? I don’t think that’s an intellectually honest way to approach the scriptures. There’s nothing particularly enlightened about modern western thinking - as in any other period it is dependent on social norms, which will change again depending on what the future brings. God is not subject to our changing opinions or attempts to make him fit into what we might consider to be acceptable.

No, actually its the thinking of Jesus long ago "My sheep listen to My voice; I know them, and they follow Me."

*Recall that that the common people heard Jesus gladly, it was the elite religious priest class who rejected him. The institutional church men have always been the enemy of enlightenment.

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling! Look, your house is left to you desolate!"

The Bible was written and rewritten by holy men, some more holy than others. A false sense of sacredness prevent the Bible from being safeguarded by common sense.

The Bible books are themselves an example of changes in belief over the ages.

 

[Derek Meyer]

First, Atheists are not correct and the Bible wrong.
That is an assumption.
Second, I am showing you what the nebular theory is, and not what some scientists are theorizing.
Thirdly, Once I am done, You will realize that every preconceived notion made against the Bible, is so flimsy that the average Christian Bible Believer will run circles around any radio isometric claim against the Bible, and will turn it into evidence in support of the God of the Bible.

Oh and what's your take on the superconinent named Columbia?

 

[Colter]

First, Atheists are not correct and the Bible wrong.
That is an assumption.
Second, I am showing you what the nebular theory is, and not what some scientists are theorizing.
Thirdly, Once I am done, You will realize that every preconceived notion made against the Bible, is so flimsy that the average Christian Bible Believer will run circles around any radio isometric claim against the Bible, and will turn it into evidence in support of the God of the Bible.

The war you are fighting was already lost long ago. YEC was the belief of those who lived in an enchanted age, they didn't know any better. They had faith, I don't fault them on some of what they believed because they were ignorant of the facts.

 

[Piet Strydom]

Hey, what's your take on the geologists who first hypothesised on Rodenia?

I am not fully informed on the latest, but do understand the argument on the development of Pangea model.
I really do not have a problem with any scientific models and proposals, and on the surface I agree with the fact that there was one continent originally.
My position in any scientific model remains as such.
When I tried to evaluate the claims made by both scientists for and against an young earth, I found too many inconsistencies on the side of the Scientific dating with the use of Interpretations.
Both Young Earth and Old Earth professions are highly debatable, and Quite frankly, I am still in awe with what Kant, Stenno, and Newton found.
From my point of view, after discovering that the Bible should be treated with much more scientific respect, I doubt any Atheistic point of view and investigate it before even considering it as true.
Normally their so called evidence is in support of the Nebulae theory.

I see you live around the corner from me.

 

[Tom 1]

No, actually its the thinking of Jesus long ago "My sheep listen to My voice; I know them, and they follow Me."

*Recall that that the common people heard Jesus gladly, it was the elite religious priest class who rejected him. The institutional church men have always been the enemy of enlightenment.

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling! Look, your house is left to you desolate!"

The Bible was written and rewritten by holy men, some more holy than others. A false sense of sacredness prevent the Bible from being safeguarded by common sense.

The Bible books are themselves an example of changes in belief over the ages.

I understand what you are saying,although I don’t think that the sharp disagreements Jesus had with some religious leaders should be used to tar all religious leaders.
Getting back to the original point, I think it’s a useful thought exercise to go through methodically what you would have done, in practical terms, to keep Israel pure (to the extent that this was in god’s hands) and a beacon and opportunity to other peoples. Bearing in mind the layers of context among other nations and the volatility of the ANE how would that be done in some other way?

 

[Colter]

I understand what you are saying,although I don’t think that the sharp disagreements Jesus had with some religious leaders should be used to tar all religious leaders.
Getting back to the original point, I think it’s a useful thought exercise to go through methodically what you would have done, in practical terms, to keep Israel pure (to the extent that this was in god’s hands) and a beacon and opportunity to other peoples. Bearing in mind the layers of context among other nations and the volatility of the ANE how would that be done in some other way?

I don't tar all religious leaders, but the claim that man is constantly imperfect, even sinful, with the acceptation of those who write scripture and run institutional religion, is ridiculous! The Bible books are as imperfect as we should expect them to be! You sound reasonable enough to realize that the church is perfectly capable of having it's own stubborn pride!?

Keep Israel pure? Being selected went to the heads of the so called Israelites. The Babylonian captivity was too much! From that vantage point they recast their history, in doing so the priestly writers sealed the confusion and settled the false expectations of a Jewish Messiah. Any figure that did not fit their expectations could never be the Jewish Messiah! The Son of Man realized that he was not, could not, fit the rigid mold of the concept of a material Messiah that the Jews hoped for.

God did indeed work with the descendants of Abraham as promised, but they stumbled over their own expectations, speculation, conjecture and chosen people delusion.

 

[Tom 1]

I don't tar all religious leaders, but the claim that man is constantly imperfect, even sinful, with the acceptation of those who write scripture and run institutional religion, is ridiculous! The Bible books are as imperfect as we should expect them to be! You sound reasonable enough to realize that the church is perfectly capable of having it's own stubborn pride!?

Keep Israel pure? Being selected went to the heads of the so called Israelites. The Babylonian captivity was too much! From that vantage point they recast their history, in doing so the priestly writers sealed the confusion and settled the false expectations of a Jewish Messiah. Any figure that did not fit their expectations could never be the Jewish Messiah! The Son of Man realized that he was not, could not, fit the rigid mold of the concept of a material Messiah that the Jews hoped for.

God did indeed work with the descendants of Abraham as promised, but they stumbled over their own expectations, speculation, conjecture and chosen people delusion.

I don’t disagree with you necessarily but our little convo within this thread seems to have gone off on tangents. What I was getting at originally is the objection to violence in the OT as in your list - I know these are things a lot of people find difficult, I know I certainly did initially. My question is how else could the continuity of the people of God, however imperfect, have been maintained? How would you have done it, for example?

 

[Derek Meyer]

I am not fully informed on the latest, but do understand the argument on the development of Pangea model.
I really do not have a problem with any scientific models and proposals, and on the surface I agree with the fact that there was one continent originally.
My position in any scientific model remains as such.
When I tried to evaluate the claims made by both scientists for and against an young earth, I found too many inconsistencies on the side of the Scientific dating with the use of Interpretations.
Both Young Earth and Old Earth professions are highly debatable, and Quite frankly, I am still in awe with what Kant, Stenno, and Newton found.
From my point of view, after discovering that the Bible should be treated with much more scientific respect, I doubt any Atheistic point of view and investigate it before even considering it as true.
Normally their so called evidence is in support of the Nebulae theory.

I see you live around the corner from me.

 

[Derek Meyer]

I am not fully informed on the latest, but do understand the argument on the development of Pangea model.
I really do not have a problem with any scientific models and proposals, and on the surface I agree with the fact that there was one continent originally.
My position in any scientific model remains as such.
When I tried to evaluate the claims made by both scientists for and against an young earth, I found too many inconsistencies on the side of the Scientific dating with the use of Interpretations.
Both Young Earth and Old Earth professions are highly debatable, and Quite frankly, I am still in awe with what Kant, Stenno, and Newton found.
From my point of view, after discovering that the Bible should be treated with much more scientific respect, I doubt any Atheistic point of view and investigate it before even considering it as true.
Normally their so called evidence is in support of the Nebulae theory.

I see you live around the corner from me.

 

[Piet Strydom]

I will start the weekend with the last picture for the week.
But, lets first see what we found so far.
1. Matter was strewn throughout the Solar system
2. Gravitational points started to collect at positions where the planets and moons will shape from a "foundations laid by God" into accretion of proto-planets.
3. One of these planets was a shapeless collection of Water, matter and Gas, and due to gravity changed into a sphere, and then into a mud ball on its turn developed a Land and ocean.
4.Time started to develop when light shone onto the earth.

Now that we have this description we can go over to the next step of understanding Genesis.
A. Whatever happened with the Earth also happened with all the other heavenly bodies.
B. This will include the Sun.
C. The Earth was in an area within the nebular cloud where water, Matter and Gas existed, but there was another larger proto-planet right in the middle of this baby Proto-solar system. The Sun.
Due to it situated in the centre of the nebular cloud, it collected much more matter than all the other planets, 99% of it all.
D. This proto-star was at first only one gigantic dust ball but eventually collected such a lot of whatever there was, that it started to fall into its own gravity and nuclear fusion kicked off!
E. The sun made light in the Solar system for the first time. "God said, LET THERE BE LIGHT!
F. at this time the solar system was still very "dirty" with residue of dust not collected by the Sun and other planets and only shone with a dim red glow.
G. the Bible describes 3 more days, and then says:

[1:14] And God said, "Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years,
[1:15] and let them be lights in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth." And it was so.
[1:16] God made the two great lights - the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night - and the stars.
[1:17] God set them in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth,
[1:18] to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good.

And this is what happened on the 4th day!
1. The Sun blasted out in full nuclear fusion and lit up the Solar System, shining into the Earth's atmosphere, reflecting sunlight from the Moon, and from all the Planets we call stars.
2. The Solar System cleared its dust particles due to the Sun's radiation, and the stars from the Milky way galaxy, and other Galaxies also shined into the Atmosphere of the Earth!
3. This firmament of the heaven is the end of our atmosphere, and not outer space, and the Greater and Lesser lights are not the Sun and Moon and Stars that was placed within the Atmosphere, but the LIGHT OF THE SUN AND MOON AND PLANETS AND STARS that shone INTO THE ATMOSPHERE!
4. The Bible is very clear in this regard, because in stead of calling it the Sun, Moon and Stars, it uses the words Luminaries, and Greater light and Lesser light.
5. Some people will say, But it says:[1:16] God made the two great lights - the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night, He made the Stars also.
6. That is only due to poor translation. The words are ..."God made the two great lights - the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night, the Stars also." which clearly show that the Stars was not made on the 4th day, but together with the Sun and Moon also shined at night with the Moon.

here is a picture taken from Nigel Henbests book, The origins of the Solar System.

I took the liberty to place the Biblical words in his atheist description and love the fact that Atheists' artistic representations can be placed in the KJV!
Enjoy your weekend.

 

[Derek Meyer]

I will start the weekend with the last picture for the week.
But, lets first see what we found so far.
1. Matter was strewn throughout the Solar system
2. Gravitational points started to collect at positions where the planets and moons will shape from a "foundations laid by God" into accretion of proto-planets.
3. One of these planets was a shapeless collection of Water, matter and Gas, and due to gravity changed into a sphere, and then into a mud ball on its turn developed a Land and ocean.
4.Time started to develop when light shone onto the earth.

Now that we have this description we can go over to the next step of understanding Genesis.
A. Whatever happened with the Earth also happened with all the other heavenly bodies.
B. This will include the Sun.
C. The Earth was in an area within the nebular cloud where water, Matter and Gas existed, but there was another larger proto-planet right in the middle of this baby Proto-solar system. The Sun.
Due to it situated in the centre of the nebular cloud, it collected much more matter than all the other planets, 99% of it all.
D. This proto-star was at first only one gigantic dust ball but eventually collected such a lot of whatever there was, that it started to fall into its own gravity and nuclear fusion kicked off!
E. The sun made light in the Solar system for the first time. "God said, LET THERE BE LIGHT!
F. at this time the solar system was still very "dirty" with residue of dust not collected by the Sun and other planets and only shone with a dim red glow.
G. the Bible describes 3 more days, and then says:




And this is what happened on the 4th day!
1. The Sun blasted out in full nuclear fusion and lit up the Solar System, shining into the Earth's atmosphere, reflecting sunlight from the Moon, and from all the Planets we call stars.
2. The Solar System cleared its dust particles due to the Sun's radiation, and the stars from the Milky way galaxy, and other Galaxies also shined into the Atmosphere of the Earth!
3. This firmament of the heaven is the end of our atmosphere, and not outer space, and the Greater and Lesser lights are not the Sun and Moon and Stars that was placed within the Atmosphere, but the LIGHT OF THE SUN AND MOON AND PLANETS AND STARS that shone INTO THE ATMOSPHERE!
4. The Bible is very clear in this regard, because in stead of calling it the Sun, Moon and Stars, it uses the words Luminaries, and Greater light and Lesser light.
5. Some people will say, But it says:[1:16] God made the two great lights - the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night, He made the Stars also.
6. That is only due to poor translation. The words are ..."God made the two great lights - the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night, the Stars also." which clearly show that the Stars was not made on the 4th day, but together with the Sun and Moon also shined at night with the Moon.

here is a picture taken from Nigel Henbests book, The origins of the Solar System.
View attachment 218602

I took the liberty to place the Biblical words in his atheist description and love the fact that Atheists' artistic representations can be placed in the KJV!
Enjoy your weekend.

 

[Derek Meyer]

I will start the weekend with the last picture for the week.
But, lets first see what we found so far.
1. Matter was strewn throughout the Solar system
2. Gravitational points started to collect at positions where the planets and moons will shape from a "foundations laid by God" into accretion of proto-planets.
3. One of these planets was a shapeless collection of Water, matter and Gas, and due to gravity changed into a sphere, and then into a mud ball on its turn developed a Land and ocean.
4.Time started to develop when light shone onto the earth.

Now that we have this description we can go over to the next step of understanding Genesis.
A. Whatever happened with the Earth also happened with all the other heavenly bodies.
B. This will include the Sun.
C. The Earth was in an area within the nebular cloud where water, Matter and Gas existed, but there was another larger proto-planet right in the middle of this baby Proto-solar system. The Sun.
Due to it situated in the centre of the nebular cloud, it collected much more matter than all the other planets, 99% of it all.
D. This proto-star was at first only one gigantic dust ball but eventually collected such a lot of whatever there was, that it started to fall into its own gravity and nuclear fusion kicked off!
E. The sun made light in the Solar system for the first time. "God said, LET THERE BE LIGHT!
F. at this time the solar system was still very "dirty" with residue of dust not collected by the Sun and other planets and only shone with a dim red glow.
G. the Bible describes 3 more days, and then says:




And this is what happened on the 4th day!
1. The Sun blasted out in full nuclear fusion and lit up the Solar System, shining into the Earth's atmosphere, reflecting sunlight from the Moon, and from all the Planets we call stars.
2. The Solar System cleared its dust particles due to the Sun's radiation, and the stars from the Milky way galaxy, and other Galaxies also shined into the Atmosphere of the Earth!
3. This firmament of the heaven is the end of our atmosphere, and not outer space, and the Greater and Lesser lights are not the Sun and Moon and Stars that was placed within the Atmosphere, but the LIGHT OF THE SUN AND MOON AND PLANETS AND STARS that shone INTO THE ATMOSPHERE!
4. The Bible is very clear in this regard, because in stead of calling it the Sun, Moon and Stars, it uses the words Luminaries, and Greater light and Lesser light.
5. Some people will say, But it says:[1:16] God made the two great lights - the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night, He made the Stars also.
6. That is only due to poor translation. The words are ..."God made the two great lights - the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night, the Stars also." which clearly show that the Stars was not made on the 4th day, but together with the Sun and Moon also shined at night with the Moon.

here is a picture taken from Nigel Henbests book, The origins of the Solar System.
View attachment 218602

I took the liberty to place the Biblical words in his atheist description and love the fact that Atheists' artistic representations can be placed in the KJV!
Enjoy your weekend.