Original vs. Ancestral Sin

[com7fy8]

If Jesus was "sin-incapable" then His being tempted and refusing to give in to that temptation would have no meaning.

I think the main meaning of Hebrews 4:15 is how Jesus went through things we go through, so that now He can feel for us and minister to us His grace which made Him able to do so well in this life.

This grace is almighty . . . for how to love . . . while incapable of sin.

A couple of things to consider >

If Jesus is capable of sinning, He can not be God who is incapable of sinning > James 1:13.

So, what can be the meaning of Jesus not giving in to temptation, while He was in the flesh? His physical flesh did not have power over Him to make Him capable of sinning.

One thing is this scripture means God's own Son cares for us so, that He came and went through things we go through, here, so now He can feel for us out of His own experience . . . except that in His case His experience was "without sin", since Jesus has no sin. But He has shared with us as much as He could while still being God.

Another thing > it does have the meaning . . . how God's grace made Jesus able to do so well > since God's grace is almighty and unable to sin. And this grace can have us succeeding without bleeding, going through anything.

It is not about "Jesus kept Himself from sinning, and so we can, too." Because we can't . . . unless we are living in His grace with His almighty power and creativity for loving, instead.

That's another thing > Jesus did not just avoid sinning, but He did all the good, instead. And in us He shares His ability, so we are not depending on ourselves.

 

[BobRyan]

But Adam was a creature.

True. and that is also the point of "incarnation".

Jesus is God's own Son, with the nature of our Creator who is incapable of evil > James 1:13. So, I offer how Jesus was not only sinless, but sin-incapable.

No text says humans are incapable of sin. God the Son became human -- that is the definition of "incarnation".

God does not get thirsty - Christ said "I thirst"
God does not get tired - Christ slept
God is all powerful - Christ fainted under the pressure of the cross
God does not get hungry - Christ ate.

Christ said "I do nothing of my own" in fact He said that even His words - were not His. When praying in Gethsemane "nevertheless not my will but thy will be done"

So while Christ was fully God- He was also fully human and had all the problems of a human being

 

[BobRyan]

I find it difficult to believe in original sin for the reasons you have just laid out , the innocent are guilty. I side with living in a fallen world that can drag a person into its clutches of sin which leads to the second death. Jesus Christ of Nazareth came and destroyed the second death for all who belive and receive His Holy Spirit. Blessings.

So then in your view - not all children of Adam need a Savior , no matter what Romans 5 says to the contrary?

 

[pescador]

"Therefore since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast to our confession. For we do not have a high priest incapable of sympathizing with our weaknesses, but one who has been tempted in every way just as we are, yet without sin. Therefore let us confidently approach the throne of grace to receive mercy and find grace whenever we need help." Hebrews 4:14-16

This clearly states that Jesus was tempted in every way just as we are. Also, in Matthew's gospel, we read this...

Matthew 4:1-11, "Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. After he fasted forty days and forty nights he was famished. The tempter came and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become bread.” But he answered, “It is written, ‘Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’” Then the devil took him to the holy city, had him stand on the highest point of the temple, and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down. For it is written, ‘He will command his angels concerning you’ and ‘with their hands they will lift you up, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’” Jesus said to him, “Once again it is written: ‘You are not to put the Lord your God to the test.’” Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their grandeur. And he said to him, “I will give you all these things if you throw yourself to the ground and worship me.” Then Jesus said to him, “Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘You are to worship the Lord your God and serve only him.’” Then the devil left him, and angels came and began ministering to his needs."

So clearly Jesus was tempted here by Satan, just as we are. Also it says...

"One of the criminals who was hanging there railed at him, saying, “Aren’t you the Christ? Save yourself and us!” Luke 23:39 So clearly Jesus was tempted on the cross. His ministry began with temptation and ended with temptation.

Hebrews 4:15 says, "For we do not have a high priest incapable of sympathizing with our weaknesses, but one who has been tempted in every way just as we are, yet without sin.

If Jesus came to earth as the all-powerful God who couldn't be tempted then His life on Earth was lived by a different set of rules. In other words, He had "an out". That wasn't the case. He overcame sin.

 

[chad kincham]

“If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.” 1 John 1:8-9

“No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.” 1 John 3:9-10

And the meaning of 1 John 3:9 is not that Christians never sin, if that was true there is no born again Christian at all.

It means one born of God does not live a life of continual sin as the unregenerate do, but when they do sin from time to time, they confess it so God will forgive the sin, per 1 John 1:9.

Here’s some scholarship on that:

Whoever abides in Him does not sin: Since sin is lawlessness, a disregard for God (1Jn 3:4), and since Jesus came to take away our sins (1Jn 3:5), and since in Jesus there is no sin (1Jn 3:5), then to abide in Him means to not sin.

i. It is very important to understand what the Bible means - and when it does not mean - when it says does not sin. According to the verb tense John uses, does not sin means does not live a life style of habitual sin. John has already told us in 1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. In 1Jn 1:8, the grammar indicates John is speaking about occasional acts of sin. The grammar of 1Jn 3:6 indicates that John is speaking of a settled, continued lifestyle of sin. John is not teaching here the possibility of sinless perfection.

ii. “The present tense in the Greek verb implied habit, continuity, unbroken sequence” (Stott); the NIV has the right idea when it translates these verbs with phrases such as keeps on sinning, continues to sin, and he cannot go on sinning.

b. Whoever abides in Him does not sin: John’s message is plain and consistent with the rest of the Scriptures. It tells us that a life style of habitual sin is inconsistent with a life of abiding in Jesus Christ. A true Christian can only be temporarily in a life style of sin.

i. Paul’s teaching in Romans 6 is a great example of this principle. He shows us that when a person comes to Jesus, when their sins are forgiven and God’s grace is extended to them, they are radically changed - the old man is dead, and the new man lives. So it is utterly incompatible for a new creation in Christ to be comfortable in habitual sin; such a place can only be temporary for the Christian.

ii. In some ways, the question is not “do you sin or not?” We each sin. The question is, “How do you react when you sin? Do you give into the pattern of sin, and let it dominate your lifestyle? Or do you humbly confess your sin, and do battle against it with the power Jesus can give?”

iii. This is why it is so grieving to see Christians make excuses for their sin, and not humbly confess them. Unless the sin is dealt with squarely, it will contribute to a pattern of sin that may soon become their lifestyle - perhaps a secret lifestyle, but a lifestyle nonetheless.

iv. What is important is that we never sign a “peace treaty” with sin. We never wink at its presence or excuse it by saying, “Everybody has their own sinful areas, and this is mine. Jesus understands.” This completely goes against everything we are in Jesus, and the work He has done in our life.

c. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him: To live a lifestyle of habitual sin is to demonstrate that you have not seen Him (in a present sense of the ultimate “seeing Him mentioned in 1Jn 3:2), and that you have not known Him. There are some people so great and so wonderful that seeing them or knowing them will change your life forever. Jesus is that kind of person.

 

[chad kincham]

So then in your view - not all children of Adam need a Savior , no matter what Romans 5 says to the contrary?

Original sin means being born guilty of Adams sin of eating forbidden fruit - which is false.
Scripture is clear we are judged for sins committed in our body. We are not judged for Adams sin.
We are born with a sin nature inherited from Adam, which is why we all sin and need a savior.

 

[chad kincham]

We inherit the sin: the abnormality, deviation, or disorder, of separation from God. Man was made for communion with God and yet we enter this world apart from Him, not even knowing Him, lacking the “knowledge of God”, lost, sick, dead without first being aware of it. And this disordered state must be resolved:
“Now this is eternal life: that they know you,the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” John 17:3

By knowing the true God we come to believe in, trust/hope in, and, finally and most importantly, to love Him. By this we are reconciled with God as we enter that partnership that constitutes the right and just order of things in creation. This reconciliation is why Jesus came.

No one is born lost or condemned.
Little children are innocent, not damned, in fact Jesus said you won’t see heaven unless you are converted and become as little children.
No one needs saved until they are of the age of accountability and have sinned - because they inherited a sinful nature from Adam.

Mat 18:2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Fervent]

Original sin means being born guilty of Adams sin of eating forbidden fruit - which is false.
Scripture is clear we are judged for sins committed in our body. We are not judged for Adams sin.
We are born with a sin nature inherited from Adam, which is why we all sin and need a savior.

Another point of separation between east and west, the sin nature. Eastern tradition is varied and there's not a systematic treatment to point to, but generally the consequences of the fall are seen as being born into a world in which sin is present, not a change in the human nature. Ultimately, humans are consigned to death from birth but not as a punishment but as a consequence of sins presence in the world. The ubiqutousness of sin in the world renders it inevitable that all will sin and bring guilt upon themselves, but the relationship with the first sin is the reality of being born into a fallen world not having a fallen human nature.

 

[chad kincham]

1 John 1 was written to unbelievers. Christians are considered sinless by God since we are in Christ.

"This is what we proclaim to you: what was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and our hands have touched (concerning the word of life— and the life was revealed, and we have seen and testify and announce to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us). What we have seen and heard we announce to you too, so that you may have fellowship with us (and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ). Thus we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete.

Now this is the gospel message we have heard from him and announce to you: God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all." 1 John 1:1-5

One would never write the emphasized parts to people who were already believers.

Absolutely wrong. It says if WE say we have no sin we lie, the apostle includes himself. It’s written to the brethren, it’s not to the unsaved at all.
When Paul was preaching salvation in Romans 10, he said if YOU confess with your mouth the lord Jesus - not, if WE confess with our mouth.
1 John 1 was not for the unsaved.

 

[chad kincham]

Another point of separation between east and west, the sin nature. Eastern tradition is varied and there's not a systematic treatment to point to, but generally the consequences of the fall are seen as being born into a world in which sin is present, not a change in the human nature. Ultimately, humans are consigned to death from birth but not as a punishment but as a consequence of sins presence in the world. The ubiqutousness of sin in the world renders it inevitable that all will sin and bring guilt upon themselves, but the relationship with the first sin is the reality of being born into a fallen world not having a fallen human nature.

Anyone who’s raised children knows that toddlers lie and disobey as soon as they can talk at all, without being exposed to the sinful world yet - we clearly have a sin nature driving us to sin, from the get go.

 

[Fervent]

Anyone who’s raised children knows that toddlers lie and disobey as soon as they can talk at all, without being exposed to the sinful world yet - we clearly have a sin nature driving us to sin, from the get go.

Babies are exposed to the sinful world the moment they're born and every day after.

 

[fhansen]

No one is born lost or condemned.

I don't think anyone's born condemned. But we're all born lost. We may go through the motions of life as if we know what we're doing here but in reality no one is born knowing where they came from, if anywhere, what they're here for, if for anything, and where they're going afterwards, if anywhere. For all we know, apart from faith, this world is nothing but a giant, meaningless, slaughterhouse at the end of the day That's the condition of being lost. Man was made for communion with God and can never feel truly at home until that union is fully realized. But we're born without the "knowledge of God", let alone a communion of love with Him. And that separation is a matter of injustice or disorder that leads to the sin and chaos we witness and participate in to one degree or another everyday in this world. And that separation is the essence of the state sometimes known as original sin.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If Jesus never went to the cross, then everyone would be condemned including babies. For if salvation could be attained some other way, why didn't God just kill His faithful ones as infants? There would be no need for God the Father to send His only begotten Son to suffer and die for us. This is why Jesus had to die on the cross for man's sins. All were condemned in Adam's sin. All die because they are condemned by Adam's sin. Jesus was born of the seed of the woman and He bypassed the imputed sin of Adam. For when Eve sinned, their eyes were not opened yet. It was only when Adam sinned that sin and death came into the world. It was not by Eve. So Jesus was without any taint of sin from Adam (Which can only be passed down by the male seed). This is why He was born of a virgin. Jesus was our spotless Lamb. No taint of sin was in Him. He had to be perfect and spotless in order to be our cleaning agent and substitute for sin. For anything dirty cannot make something clean. So the promise of Jesus reversed the curse of Adam on a spiritual level, but the physical effects of sin were still visible within this world. So men die physically for the sin of Adam, but by Christ they can be made spiritually alive. So if a baby dies at birth, they are saved by Christ's sacrifice. But if a baby grows up, they are held accountable to accept God's free love gift (i.e. Jesus Christ). If they reject Jesus, then they will die spiritually in addition to dying physically. As in Adam: All die, but in Christ all shall be made alive.

The door swings both ways. In Adam, we will die physically because of his sin. But in Jesus will live eternally physically. No Jesus. There is no salvation. No Adam, and there would be no sin leading to death. Adam set the ball of sin and condemnation into motion.

Many like the good news, but they are unwilling to face any kind of bad news. We need to own up to the fact that we die in Adam. Adam brought sin and death. Jesus is our one and only way of escape.

 

[Fervent]

If Jesus never went to the cross, then everyone would be condemned including babies. For if salvation could be attained some other way, why didn't God just kill His faithful ones as infants? There would be no need for God the Father to send His only begotten Son to suffer and die for us. This is why Jesus had to die on the cross for man's sins. All were condemned in Adam's sin. All die because they are condemned by Adam's sin. Jesus was born of the seed of the woman and He bypassed the imputed sin of Adam. For when Eve sinned, their eyes were not opened yet. It was only when Adam sinned that sin and death came into the world. It was not by Eve. So Jesus was without any taint of sin from Adam (Which can only be passed down by the male seed). This is why He was born of a virgin. Jesus was our spotless Lamb. No taint of sin was in Him. He had to be perfect and spotless in order to be our cleaning agent and substitute for sin. For anything dirty cannot make something clean. So the promise of Jesus reversed the curse of Adam on a spiritual level, but the physical effects of sin were still visible within this world. So men die physically for the sin of Adam, but by Christ they can be made spiritually alive. So if a baby dies at birth, they are saved by Christ's sacrifice. But if a baby grows up, they are held accountable to accept God's free love gift (i.e. Jesus Christ). If they reject Jesus, then they will die spiritually in addition to dying physically. As in Adam: All die, but in Christ all shall be made alive.

There's one major flaw in your whole statement. As Gregory of Nazianzus said "that which He had not assumed He has not healed," so if Jesus did not assume this supposed sin nature it could not have been united with the Godhead and thus was not healed/removed. As Hebrews tells us:
Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

So if we have this imputed sin, and Jesus' incarnation took care of it, Jesus had to have this imputed sin. Which we both know could not be the case because Jesus was without sin.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So if we have this imputed sin, and Jesus' incarnation took care of it, Jesus had to have this imputed sin. Which we both know could not be the case because Jesus was without sin.

No. Jesus did not need to have his imputed sin from Adam in order to pay the penalty for our sins. It's actually the exact opposite. Jesus could not have inherited Adam's sin because He had to be our spotless Lamb and sacrifice to die in our place. Something clean can only clean that which is dirty. Adam did not inherit the sin of Adam because he was born of the seed of the woman. The sin of Adam is only passed down by the male seed and not the seed of the woman. We know by the story of Adam in Genesis and by the book of Romans that death and sin only came through Adam even though Eve sinned first. This is why Jesus had to be born of a virgin.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@Fervent:

As for your other words:

It is written: “For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;” (Hebrews 7:26).

 

[Fervent]

No. Jesus did not need to have his imputed sin from Adam in order to pay the penalty for our sins. It's actually the exact opposite. Jesus could not have inherited Adam's sin because He had to be our spotless Lamb and sacrifice to die in our place. Something clean can only clean that which is dirty. Adam did not inherit the sin of Adam because he was born of the seed of the woman. The sin of Adam is only passed down by the male seed and not the seed of the woman. We know by the story of Adam in Genesis and by the book of Romans that death and sin only came through him even though Eve sinned first. This is why Jesus had to be born of a virgin.

You're adding a whole bunch of things that are not found in the Bible and are nothing more than theological speculation. The way the Bible presents it is we are saved by joining in His baptism, becoming united in His death. What you are presenting is a modern version of docetism in which Jesus only appeared to be fully human, but had a nature that was totally unlike us. Jesus could not be our representative if He did not share in our nature completely.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You're adding a whole bunch of things that are not found in the Bible and are nothing more than theological speculation. The way the Bible presents it is we are saved by joining in His baptism, becoming united in His death. What you are presenting is a modern version of docetism in which Jesus only appeared to be fully human, but had a nature that was totally unlike us. Jesus could not be our representative if He did not share in our nature completely.

I did not really say what I believe in regards to Christ's nature. You are merely making assumptions. I am not getting into the mechanics of Christ's nature with you. What I will say is that Jesus is fully God and fully human.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The actual main point of this thread is Original Sin vs. Ancestral Sin. I don't see how man is exempt from the guilt of Adam's sin. In Adam, all die. In Christ, all shall be made alive (1 Corinthians 15:22). This is why I reject Ancestral Sin. Ancestral Sin also sets up a problem with thinking that aborted babies and children can be saved without Christ's sacrifice. This means there is another way of salvation besides Jesus. This is an insult to what our Lord did for us.

 

[Fervent]

I did not really say what I believe in regards to Christ's nature. You are merely making assumptions. I am not getting into the mechanics of Christ's nature with you. What I will say is that Jesus is fully God and fully human.

Your doctrine forces a Christology that isn't fully human, though, because the sin nature is part of the human nature if it exists. Either Christ was fully human, just as we are, or His nature was different from ours in some critical way. Either, as the Bible says, Christ faced the same temptations men face(which would include being under the influence of a sin nature) or He didn't participate fully in the human experience. To say that we have a sin nature that Christ does not is to say Christ's nature is not like ours, and therefore not fully human.