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Original manuscripts and added.

Biblicist

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There's an Italian proverb that says "Traduttore, traditore", meaning "the translator is a traitor"; translation inevitably is an imperfect science and often more art than science. Since a perfect translation can't exist, the act of translation will always result in a betrayal of the original text because there are always shades of meaning that get lost. Thus a good translation is, at its best, always just an approximation.

-CryptoLutheran
It's interesting that you made reference to that proverb and if I had of gone back and quoted directly from Kohlenberger's introduction to the NIV Exhaustive Concordance instead of from memory then I would have also included it.

I remember reading the introduction to the original NIV Exhaustive Concordance back in 1990 where it was the first modern introduction that I had read where I found the insights into concordance making to be absolutely fascinating. As with probably most others, I started my Christian walk with a rather niave understanding of how the Scriptures were developed and it took me a few years to gain a better understanding of the complexities behind the transmission of the Biblical text down through the centuries.

__________________________
Introduction to the NIV Exhaustive Concordance (2015 edition):

"Bible Translating and Concordance Making

Traduttore traditore, “the translator is a traitor,” is an ancient proverb oft quoted in books about Bible translations. To a degree this proverb is true, for no translation can perfectly bring over all the meaning and nuances of one language into another. Because no two languages share identical grammar and an identical range of word meanings, not even the best-intentioned word-for-word translation can claim to perfectly represent the original.

If the translator is a traitor, the concordance maker must be a partner in crime. For no multilingual concordance can perfectly represent both the English translation and the biblical language texts it indexes. It can perfectly represent the vocabulary of the English text, for it needs only to list the location of each of its words. In this respect a concordance is either absolutely right or absolutely wrong. But when a concordance attempts to display the relationship between the English text and the biblical languages, it falls heir to the same difficulties that face the Bible translator.

Much of Bible translation involves one-to-one relationships. More often than not, אלהים is translated

“God,” Ίησοΰς “Jesus,” and άγαπάω “love.” This part of translating and concordance making is easy.

Often, however, more than one word is needed in English to render a word in the originals. For example, the Greek word τεκνίον is regularly translated “little children” in the KJV and NAS and “dear children” in the NIV. Conversely, one English word can translate several words from the originals. Thus the infamous number “666” of Revelation 13:18 translates three Greek words.

Sometimes, because of differences in idiom, it takes several English words to translate two or more words from the original languages. This is called “dynamic equivalence” or “functional equivalence.” For example, the famous KJV expletive “God forbid!” translates one word in Hebrew and two words in Greek—neither of which has either “God” or “forbid” as part of its “literal” meaning! Nevertheless, “God forbid!” is the functional equivalent of the Greek and Hebrew phrases.

Multilingual concordances of the past have tended to display the relationship between English and the original languages as if it were almost always one-to-one. Scan a few columns of Strong’s Concordance, and you see context after context presenting one indexed word followed by one number. Over the years, this has lent support to the misconception that the KJV is an absolutely “literal,” word-for-word translation. However, the original preface to the KJV stated, “We have not tied our selves to an uniformity of phrasing, or to an identity of words, as some peradventure would wish that we had done. . . .” Young’s Analytical Concordance, and more so Eerdmans ’Analytical Concordance to the RSV that followed it, attempt to show multiple-word translation by means of multiple-word headings. However, nothing within the context itself shows how the indexed word relates to the original Greek or Hebrew.

The NIVEBC, by means of three different typefaces in the context line and a more nuanced use of its entirely new numbering system, shows more fully than any previous concordance the interrelation of the English text and the biblical languages."​
 
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hedrick

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Translations aren't adding anything, they're translating. What you are likely referring to is when translators add marginal notes to explain that certain portions of the text aren't found in some of the earliest manuscripts.
There's a sense in which they are adding them. These passages aren't in the manuscripts that modern translations use for most of their text. They are added (with appropriate explanations) from later manuscripts because they are traditional, and readers will expect to see them. If they hadn't been present in the KJV and other traditional translations, I don't think modern translations would include them at all, except possibly in a footnote.
 
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Archie the Preacher

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I agree translations do not always perfectly correspond, one language to another. Reasons are both numerous and various.

However, as a Christian, I do believe God insures His Message, His intended information, His Will is 'preserved' in any translation when done in His service and for His glory.

The comments in the last few entries are generally correct, but don't ever get the idea God's Message is or has been lost simply due to translation.

Unless one wants to demonstrate Isaiah 55:11 is invalid in this matter?
 
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Radagast

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There's a sense in which they are adding them. These passages aren't in the manuscripts that modern translations use for most of their text. They are added (with appropriate explanations) from later manuscripts because they are traditional, and readers will expect to see them.

To be really picky, translators generally use a critical Greek text for the NT (like the one below). This has everything, including the disputed passages, but with very detailed footnotes. For most disputed passages a case can be made for inclusion, and the translators are typically letting the reader decide. So no, I don't think the translators are "adding them."

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Archie the Preacher

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Radagast said:
To be really picky, translators generally use a critical Greek text for the NT (like the one below). This has everything, including the disputed passages, but with very detailed footnotes. For most disputed passages a case can be made for inclusion, and the translators are typically letting the reader decide. So no, I don't think the translators are "adding them."
Radagast (do you wear brown, by the way?) your point should be made.

The 'added' passages may be subject to scholarly review and even argument (in the reasoned debate sense, not the waving arms and screaming sense) about originality; but they are not something obvious invented and inserted at a later time.

One also notes NONE of the 'added' passages - to my knowledge - either contradict, negate or add on to the essential message of the Lord God through the direct teaching of Jesus Christ or the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

For those purists who look at these passages askance, feel free to do so; but don't get the idea that inclusion of these passages somehow defile or poison the rest. If one feels that way, please submit reasons for holding such a view.
 
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hedrick

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The 'added' passages may be subject to scholarly review and even argument (in the reasoned debate sense, not the waving arms and screaming sense) about originality; but they are not something obvious invented and inserted at a later time.
It varies. The most flagrant example is 1 John 5:7-8. That was certainly invented and inserted later. Many of the insertions are simply material from other places that are duplicated. John 8:1-11 was surely added to John much later, although I'm inclined to think that it goes back to Jesus' time and originally circulated separately from any of the Gospels.
 
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Archie the Preacher

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hedrick said:
It varies. The most flagrant example is 1 John 5:7-8. That was certainly invented and inserted later.
Hedrick, I looked in a Bible with copious foot notes and a couple commentaries. No one mentioned any such thing about 1 John 5:7-8.

But it does credit the Trinity, doesn't it?
 
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Radagast

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hedrick

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Archie the Preacher

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hedrick said:
Yup. If none of his Bibles or commentaries mention the problems with this passages, he should reexamine his choice of reference material. This is a very well known issue.
Apparently only to those who are anti-Trinity.
 
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hedrick

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Apparently only to those who are anti-Trinity.
Even if you think it's authentic, it's a bit worrisome that none of your references would have at least alerted you that there was an issue.

Furthermore, this response is a classic ad hominem: assuming wrong motivation for people you disagree with. In fact i accept the Trinity. So do most of the textual scholars who reject this passage.

The Trinity most certainly does not rest on this passage. It can't, since the Trinity was established before this passage first appeared. Indeed Leo's Tome, on which Chalcedon is based, actually quotes this passage, but without the addition. Since the early Church established the Trinity without using this passage, rejecting it today does nothing to weaken the Trinity.
 
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Radagast

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Apparently only to those who are anti-Trinity.

Hardly. Let me pick some Bible translations popular in Evangelical circles and check the footnotes:

NIV: words not in text, footnote says: 1 John 5:8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)

ESV: words not in text, no footnote

NASB: words not in text, footnote says: 1 John 5:8 A few late mss add ...in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three that testify on earth, the Spirit

HCSB: words not in text, footnote says: 1 John 5:7 Other mss (Vg and a few late Gk mss) read testify in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are One. 8 And there are three who bear witness on earth:

Now these famous words are an obvious late addition, but they weren't inserted by the translators, which is why the NIV, NASB, and HCSB still have the words in a footnote.
 
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Archie the Preacher

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Archie said:
Apparently only to those (objecting to 1 John 5:8) who are anti-Trinity.
Radagast said:
Hardly. Let me pick some Bible translations popular in Evangelical circles and check the footnotes: (lists examples)...
Now these famous words are an obvious late addition, but they weren't inserted by the translators, which is why the NIV, NASB, and HCSB still have the words in a footnote.

Very well. My point is somewhat different. That 'insertion', those phrases very much support the Trinitarian view. Removing them, or condemning them, attacks the Trinitarian view.

Compare that to another 'famous' insertion into the text, after the originals, that of the latter part of Matthew 6:13 "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory forever. Amen"

I haven't checked to see how many versions still include it, but there is good reason to believe it is not in the original texts. Yet no one seems to object to it on grounds of 'contamination'. I presume because it 'fits' and does not contradict any other portion of either Old Testament or New Testament. Not to mention it is contained in the KJV, assumed by many to be correct.
 
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hedrick

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Very well. My point is somewhat different. That 'insertion', those phrases very much support the Trinitarian view. Removing them, or condemning them, attacks the Trinitarian view.
No, it is not an attack on the Trinity to reject fallacious arguments for it. There are several reasons:

* People who are examining the alternatives can reasonably be put off if they find that some of the arguments of it are fallacious.

* People that we are talking to about other issues can reasonably discount what we say if they realize we don’t care about the truth of what we say.

* While I’m pretty sure about the Trinity, it’s likely that some things I believe are wrong. How can I ever improve my beliefs if I don’t look at the evidence honestly.

* Now a more technical point: when it comes to the Trinity, there are differences in how people understand it. At least for Protestants we try to understand it by using Scripture. We don't want to include spurious verses when we're trying to formulate the doctrine, because it might tend to lead us in the wrong direction.

Thus I would argue that removing fallacious arguments actually strengthens the doctrine of the Trinity.

I think Christians are committed to tell the truth in most situations. Exceptions involve weird situations like we’re trying to hide Jews from the Nazis. That includes being honest with others, and even more importantly ourselves, about both the strengths and weaknesses of our beliefs.
 
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Radagast

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That 'insertion', those phrases very much support the Trinitarian view. Removing them, or condemning them, attacks the Trinitarian view.

As Hedrick points out, the doctrine of the Trinity doesn't need the support of a late addition to the text.

Compare that to another 'famous' insertion into the text, after the originals, that of the latter part of Matthew 6:13 "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory forever. Amen"

I haven't checked to see how many versions still include it, but there is good reason to believe it is not in the original texts. Yet no one seems to object to it on grounds of 'contamination'.

Many versions move it to a footnote. However, that doxology may well come from the Lord's Prayer as orally handed down. I can't off the top of my head remember which other writings include it.
 
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Radagast

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I think Christians are committed to tell the truth in most situations. ... That includes being honest with others, and even more importantly ourselves, about both the strengths and weaknesses of our beliefs.

"I would not snare even an orc with a falsehood."
 
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Archie the Preacher

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My question and objection stands: If one suspect passage is examined and challenged, why not the others?

I do not object to the substance of either of these two additions. The addition in the Lord's Prayer does come from the Old Testament, I seem to recall something of that nature at least. The triune witness is not fabricated nor fallacious in concept. But they are both seemingly added and possibly not the original text.
 
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Radagast

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My question and objection stands: If one suspect passage is examined and challenged, why not the others?

There's an escalating scale of translator responses, depending on how strong the case for inclusion is:

1) Keep in the text with no footnote.

2) Keep in the text with a footnote.

3) Move the words to a footnote.

4) Omit from text with no footnote.
 
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