Ordinances...

[Wrigley]

If we are saved, our names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life. This guarantees that we have eternal life. Eternal life is forever.

Everyone is judged according to their works.And what happens when we are judged by our works? The works of those who never came to Christ are worthless. By grace are we saved---not of works.

God's Grace motivates Christians to obedience. We are not trying to earn a higher position than another Christian. We are only doing what God motivates us to do. Our love for God comes from God.

1 John 4

19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Saving faith is a work of God not man.

1 Thessalonians 1
3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;


2 Thessalonians 1
11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

Why would men expect special positions or rewards in heaven when all their good works were motivated and empowered by God?

1 Corinthians 15
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

My thanks to Tony Warren for pointing this out to me.

I don't know how much more clearly you could have answered this Pheobe. Well done.

 

[Rescued One]

Just maybe the people you hang out with are as non-committal as you are.

Once more for the record: Do you believe in OSAS?

I told the readers of this thread that I believe in the eternal security of the believer. What does that mean to you? I do not believe as Arminians do that Once Saved, the rest depends on man. Do you? IOW, is salvation a work of God or a work of God and man?

For the record, I hear people say it all the time. There are many ECs I know that believe they can commit any sion they like but they're still going to Heaven.

I assume you mean sin, not sion. Could you please give us the reference to such a quote? Where can we see this?

 

[RufustheRed]

Just maybe the people you hang out with are as non-committal as you are.

Why the insult? Is it imperative to the topic of ordinances?

Once more for the record: Do you believe in OSAS?

The two letter "s" in that acronym signify "saved." What do you mean by "saved?"

For the record, I hear people say it all the time. There are many ECs I know that believe they can commit any sion they like but they're still going to Heaven. In fact, in the "other forum" we're discussing this right now...

Well, I tend not to claim a label, but if by "EC" you mean evangelical, I suppose I would belong in that camp. I do not ever remember hearing anyone saying that they could commit any sin and still be heaven bound. Have you ever heard the phrase "pursuing Holiness?" That's what I feel I try to do because the Holy Spirit in me guides me away from the temptations that I may succumb to. Truly, consider an LDS person who drinks, smokes, doesn't tithe and cheats on his/her spouse. Would you consider them LDS?

I suppose that comes down to semantics and how you define who is and who isn't a Christian. With the "Calvinistic Loophole" this is how it works.

And what is the LDS loophole?

Actually, it's quite different. We can know if someone has repented of a sin because:

1. They will confess it
2. The will forsake it
3. They will make restitution for it

Could you please tell me how a person can "make restitution" for rape or manslaughter?

Thanks for listening.

Mac

 

[jeffC]

If we are saved, our names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life. This guarantees that we have eternal life. Eternal life is forever.

What of those whose names are blotted out of the Book of Life?

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
​

Everyone is judged according to their works.And what happens when we are judged by our works? The works of those who never came to Christ are worthless. By grace are we saved---not of works.

I agree with the words you have written here. But where does what you have written contradict the notion that our works can condemn us?

Rev20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


Rev21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into [heaven] any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

​

 

[Havahope]

. . . . . . . . . Is God's grace dependent on man's performance?

Ex. 15: 26. And said, IF thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the Lord thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the Lord that healeth thee.

Ex. 19: 5. "Now therefore, IF ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, THEN ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:"

Ezek. 18:4. "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
5. But IF a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,
6. And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,
7. And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;
8. He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,
9. Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord God."

Jer. 18: 6. "O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
7. At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8. IF that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I WILL repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10. If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them."

Is. 1: 18. "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19. IF ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
20. But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it."

These scriptures are just for starters. There are many more scriptures, that in essence say, "If you will, I [God] will."

 

[Ran77]

I told the readers of this thread that I believe in the eternal security of the believer. What does that mean to you?

What it means to me is that you are giving us as loose an answer as possible. You are avoiding a simple yes or no - which would be sufficient - and I have to wonder why? The refusal to give a simple answer is suspicious.

As you present it, it sure sounds to me that I have eternal security. I am a believer. And as you have tried to point out - how long does eternal security last?

I do not believe as Arminians do that Once Saved, the rest depends on man. Do you? IOW, is salvation a work of God or a work of God and man?

Then, if you believe this, why would you want to try your trickery on us to discredit our beliefs. We don't believe the rest depends on man. I have already pointed out the fallacy of that argument.

I guess that what happens when the goal is to discredit a faith - no matter what they believe - instead of just objecting to those portions that are different than your own beliefs; you end up attacking views that are similar to your own and creating artificial distinctions to make their views "bad".

 

[Rescued One]

Ex. 15: 26 And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.

Do I have the diseases which God put upon the Egyptians?


Titus 3
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Rescued One]

What it means to me is that you are giving us as loose an answer as possible.

There is nothing loose about anything I said. Why do you make that accusation? Is it because I don't believe my salvation depends on me?

You are avoiding a simple yes or no - which would be sufficient - and I have to wonder why?

You have failed to tell us what you mean by OSAS. How do you define it?

The refusal to give a simple answer is suspicious.

The refusal to define what you are asking is suspicious.

how long does eternal security last?

What does eternal mean to you?

We don't believe the rest depends on man. I have already pointed out the fallacy of that argument.

Accordingly, eternal life is not a name that has reference only to the unending duration of a future life; immortality is to live forever in the resurrected state, and by the grace of God all men will gain this unending continuance of life. But only those who obey the fulness of the gospel law will inherit eternal life. (D. & C. 29:43-44.) Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 237

Immortality connotes life without end. Eternal life, on the other hand, connotes quality of life — exaltation, the highest type of immortality, the kind of life enjoyed by God himself. It is in the attainment of eternal life, which man must earn in mortality, that he reaches his full potentiality. (Marion G. Romney of the First Presidency, at General Conference, October 1978, Ensign, November, 1978, p. 14).

I guess that what happens when the goal is to discredit a faith - no matter what they believe - instead of just objecting to those portions that are different than your own beliefs; you end up attacking views that are similar to your own and creating artificial distinctions to make their views "bad".

You are wrong. I don't have to discredit Mormonism nor is it my goal. All I do is compare what Mormons teach to what the Bible says. If you or anyone else believes the Bible over the teachings of your leaders, that is not my doing. Nor is it my doing of you believe your leaders over the Bible. I am not making your views good or bad or neutral.

 

[gort]

I don't know how much more clearly you could have answered this Pheobe. Well done.

Yep.

I might add one more. The Father always listens to the prayers of the Son.

Joh 17:1 Jesus spoke these words and lifted up His eyes to Heaven and said, Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son so that Your Son also may glorify You,
Joh 17:2 even as You have given Him authority over all flesh so that He should give eternal life to all You have given Him.
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Joh 17:4 I have glorified You upon the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.
Joh 17:5 And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Joh 17:6 I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave to Me out of the world. They were Yours, and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
Joh 17:7 Now they have known that all things, whatever You have given Me, are from You.
Joh 17:8 For I have given to them the Words which You gave Me, and they have received them and have known surely that I came out from You. And they have believed that You sent Me.
Joh 17:9 I pray for them. I do not pray for the world, but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.
Joh 17:10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I am glorified in them.
Joh 17:11 And now I am in the world no longer, but these are in the world, and I come to You, Holy Father. Keep them in Your name, those whom You have given Me, so that they may be one as We are.
Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those that You have given Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
Joh 17:13 And now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world that they might have My joy fulfilled in them.
Joh 17:14 I have given them Your Word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh 17:15 I do not pray for You to take them out of the world, but for You to keep them from the evil.
Joh 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through Your truth. Your Word is truth.
Joh 17:18 As You have sent Me into the world, even so I have sent them into the world.
Joh 17:19 And I sanctify Myself for their sakes, so that they also might be sanctified in truth.
Joh 17:20 And I do not pray for these alone, but for those also who shall believe on Me through their word,
Joh 17:21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You, that they also may be one in Us, so that the world may believe that You have sent Me.
Joh 17:22 And I have given them the glory which You have given Me, that they may be one, even as We are one,
Joh 17:23 I in them, and You in Me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them as You have loved Me.
Joh 17:24 Father, I desire that those whom You have given Me, that they may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me, for You have loved Me before the foundation of the world.
Joh 17:25 O righteous Father, indeed the world has not known You; but I have known You, and these have known that You have sent me.
Joh 17:26 And I made known to them Your name, and will make it known, so that the love with which You have loved Me may be in them, and I in them.


We have eternal security, and we does have irresistable Grace the ever draws us to Him.

 

[Apex]

You have failed to tell us what you mean by OSAS. How do you define it?

Phoebe, is OSAS a LDS doctrine??? No! Therefore we do not define what it means. OSAS is a mainstream doctrine and is defined by mainstream-christians (for example....you) so you should be the one who needs to do any defining, not us. When we ask do you belive in OSAS, simply say yes or no, if you wish you can also (not only) give an explanation as to why.

You are wrong. I don't have to discredit Mormonism nor is it my goal. All I do is compare what Mormons teach to what the Bible says.

Theres a problem with this, the Bible can be interpreted in 100's of different ways. Simply saying yours is correct because you say so is not going to get you anywhere.

 

[Havahope]

Do I have the diseases which God put upon the Egyptians?

I don't know, because I don't know you, and I don't know what particular diseases were being referred to. But the point here is not whether you have their diseases, but whether or not God's grace was dispensed according to if they did right in in his sight, gave ear to His commandments, and kept all of His statutes.

Remember, God is sovereign and does not have to keep His end of the "bargain", even if we do. So it is still by His grace that He does keep His promise to us.

 

[Rescued One]

What of those whose names are blotted out of the Book of Life?

What is your reference for names being blotted out of the book of life?

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Who is he that overcomes? And what is the victory that overcomes?

1 John 5
4For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Everyone is judged according to their works.And what happens when we are judged by our works? The works of those who never came to Christ are worthless. By grace are we saved---not of works.

I agree with the words you have written here. But where does what you have written contradict the notion that our works can condemn us?

I don't know if I understand your question. But works that are done to earn God's favor are worthless. We cannot earn our own righteousness. Believers have eternal life; others are condemned.

Romans 4
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

I don't know anyone who can successfully pay his sin debt. None of us are lambs without spot or blemish. The law makes us guilty before God because we fail at keeping it. So the works of unbelievers condemn them.

Rev20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

The works of unbelievers are as filthy rags. What are the works of believers?

Titus 2
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

1 Corinthians 15
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Philippians 1
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Rev21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into [heaven] any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Philippians 3
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

1 John 1
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Revelation 20
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

This is important:

Revelation 20
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Ephesians 1:3-6

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

2 Timothy 1
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and Grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Revelation 17
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

 

[Wrigley]

Phoebe, is OSAS a LDS doctrine??? No! Therefore we do not define what it means. OSAS is a mainstream doctrine and is defined by mainstream-christians (for example....you) so you should be the one who needs to do any defining, not us. When we ask do you belive in OSAS, simply say yes or no, if you wish you can also (not only) give an explanation as to why.

Well he and the rest of the mormons are throwing the term around alot. It appears to me that y'all have an idea of what it is. Why not share it?

 

[ZealouS]

I want to ask about your fist two sentences.



What is the final written word and how do you know its final? I don't understand the second clause at all. What does: we have the spoken word, Christ that is beyond anything written mean? What are you saying here? If one does have the spoken word of Christ wouldn't that trump the Bible?

The final written word is the Bible, your church has that as do many others. True Christians have the Bible but they also have Jesus Christ personally interacting with them. I am not judging your status as a true Christian or not but I am making it known that true Christians have more then just scriptures, we have Jesus Christ.

Are these examples of loving one another:

"First off, I would like to add that this post if foolishness."

"On the other hand, Joseph Smith is portrayed as a lamb that went to the slaughter when in reality he shot and killed men before he himself was shot. Why the cover up? Why is your church ashamed to let the whole world know how he really died?"

"The fact of the matter is that your church brings judgement upon its head because it claims the blameless perfect lives of men such as Joseph Smith."

In an inter-faith dialogue where one wants to play the critic its problematic to then site the Second Great Commandment. See the above three examples of acrimony, untutored utterance and hyperbole.

Note: some may be tempted to say their criticism is their love of their neighbor, but such is rhetorically myopic that more often than not simply feeds a self righteousness. None are drawn closer or feel a kinship with their detractors or those who attack what they hold dear.

Am I to love that which I believe is false and the wrong path? Have I struck out and said a harshword to any person that I have interacted with? Not to my knowledge and I ask your forgiveness if I have.

To proclaim that I am not loving my neighbor because I said an article was foolishness is without merit. To claim that I am not loving my neighbor because I question the motives of a man whom shot other men is also without merit. To claim that I am not loving my neighbor because I used hyperbole to demonstrate the excessive regard and reverence a church has for a mere mortal human being is once again without merit. However, I can admit that I am not a perfect human being and sometimes I do act with other motives besides love. I wish it were not so but it is.

My goal isnt to draw people close to me or attack that which they hold dear. My goal is for people to truly test the things they believe, not with feelings alone but with the aid of the Holy Spirit, Prayer, and God's written word, the Bible. If you measure things in this manner and truly disregard the fears of what your family will say, what your friends will say, what your church leader(s) will say, etc. and you find that it is still true then hold onto it. God has lead you there for a purpose.

Christ guide us,
Jed

 

[Sherman]

Are these examples of loving one another:

"First off, I would like to add that this post if foolishness."

"On the other hand, Joseph Smith is portrayed as a lamb that went to the slaughter when in reality he shot and killed men before he himself was shot. Why the cover up? Why is your church ashamed to let the whole world know how he really died?"

"The fact of the matter is that your church brings judgement upon its head because it claims the blameless perfect lives of men such as Joseph Smith."

In an inter-faith dialogue where one wants to play the critic its problematic to then site the Second Great Commandment. See the above three examples of acrimony, untutored utterance and hyperbole.

Note: some may be tempted to say their criticism is their love of their neighbor, but such is rhetorically myopic that more often than not simply feeds a self righteousness. None are drawn closer or feel a kinship with their detractors or those who attack what they hold dear.

<snip>My goal isnt to draw people close to me or attack that which they hold dear. My goal is for people to truly test the things they believe, not with feelings alone but with the aid of the Holy Spirit, Prayer, and God's written word, the Bible. If you measure things in this manner and truly disregard the fears of what your family will say, what your friends will say, what your church leader(s) will say, etc. and you find that it is still true then hold onto it. God has lead you there for a purpose.

Christ guide us,
Jed

I think this applies:

"One hot summer&#8217;s day a fox was strolling through an orchard till he came to a bunch of Grapes just ripening on a vine which had been trained over a lofty branch. &#8220;Just the things to quench my thirst,&#8221; quoth he. Drawing back a few paces, he took a run and a jump, and just missed the bunch. Turning round again with a One, Two, Three, he jumped up, but with no greater success. Again and again he tried after the tempting morsel, but at last had to give it up, and walked away with his nose in the air, saying: &#8220;I am sure they are sour.&#8221;" &#8220;IT IS EASY TO DESPISE WHAT YOU CANNOT GET.&#8221;

 

[Rescued One]

Phoebe, is OSAS a LDS doctrine??? No! Therefore we do not define what it means. OSAS is a mainstream doctrine and is defined by mainstream-christians (for example....you) so you should be the one who needs to do any defining, not us. When we ask do you belive in OSAS, simply say yes or no, if you wish you can also (not only) give an explanation as to why.

I don't think people should ask questions if they don't know what they are asking. Does OSAS mean Once Resurrected, Always Resurrected or does it mean Once Exalted, Always Exalted?

Theres a problem with this, the Bible can be interpreted in 100's of different ways. Simply saying yours is correct because you say so is not going to get you anywhere.

And Mormons have the correct interpretation because...?

Personally, I've never said what I believe is correct just because I say so. The Holy Ghost tells those who are spiritually born again what the Bible means.

 

[Ran77]

I don't think people should ask questions if they don't know what they are asking. Does OSAS mean Once Resurrected, Always Resurrected or does it mean Once Exalted, Always Exalted?

Sounds like dodging to me.

And Mormons have the correct interpretation because...?

The Holy Ghost tells us what the Bible means, beasue we are born again.

 

[Rescued One]

Sounds like dodging to me.

Sounds like you are nitpicking.

The Holy Ghost tells us what the Bible means, beasue we are born again.

So are Mormons the only people who are born again?

 

[Apex]

I don't think peopleshould ask questions if they don't know what thwey are asking. Does OSAS mean Once Resurrected, Always Resurrected or does it mean Once Exalted, Always Exalted?

Oh you have got to be kidding me, if your going to be this childish Im done.

 

[Ran77]

The final written word is the Bible, your church has that My goal is for people to truly test the things they believe, not with feelings alone but with the aid of the Holy Spirit, Prayer, and God's written word, the Bible. If you measure things in this manner and truly disregard the fears of what your family will say, what your friends will say, what your church leader(s) will say, etc. and you find that it is still true then hold onto it. God has lead you there for a purpose.

This wasn't directed at me, but I would like to respond.

I do search out God's written word and receive aid from the Holy Spirit in understanding what He has said and what He wants me to do. There is no fear of what my family will say - I come from an extended family that has no use for any church. Only my brother and sister are active and they place no pressure on me to attend, believe, or anything else. Most of my friends are non-members and would probably be glad if I dropped the whole "God" thing.

The only thing that leads me in my quest is my desire to know the truth and serve God. I am not resistant to change in myself. I admit I am wrong often, because I would rather adopt the right view than vainly hold on to a lie to protect my pride.