Ordinances...

[Rescued One]

Do you believe once saved always saved?

If by salvation you mean eternal life, can you explain how something that is eternal can last only a week or only fifty years?

 

[randypamjohnson]

If by salvation you mean eternal life, can you explain how something that is eternal can last only a week or only fifty years?

Hi Phoebe,

I think Ran77 is just wanting a clear cut answer of what you believe on this.

Do you believe "once saved, always saved"?

No fair answering a question with a question!

 

[Rescued One]

Hi Phoebe,

I think Ran77 is just wanting a clear cut answer of what you believe on this.

Do you believe "once saved, always saved"?

No fair answering a question with a question!

I believe eternal life has no end. If one defines saved as having eternal life, I do believe it is forever rather than temporary.

 

[RufustheRed]

Acts 16:26And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one's bands were loosed. 27And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.
28But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.
29Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.



Please note that Paul and Silas didn't say be baptized (although they said it afterwards) receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, partake of the sacrament, receive a priesthood, go to the temple to get endowments, get sealed to his wife for eternity and be a savior on Mt. Zion for his dead ancestors and then would he be saved.

What he said was BELIEVE and not only would he, the jailor, be saved, but his whole household, too.



Praise be to God



Mac

 

[RufustheRed]

4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
(The Articles of Faith :4)

That's it? What are the second and third principles?

Mac

 

[RufustheRed]

In your opinion Ran, what is the diffrence between an ordinance and a commandment?

And why do you feel that the word ordinance is not used in the New Testament? (I ran a search and I didn't find the word so if you do happen to find it, point it out to me)

I'm not Ran, but the word ordinance appears in the King James New Testament nine times. Luke 1:6; Romans 13:2; I Corinthains 11:2; Ephesians 2:15; Colossians 2:14, 20; Hebrews 9:1, 10 and I Peter 2:13.

Mac

 

[Ran77]

If by salvation you mean eternal life, can you explain how something that is eternal can last only a week or only fifty years?

I don't recognize that as either a yes or a no. I don't know how I can make it any simpler than that. For someone that post so many setup questions against the LDS I think it only fair that you answer one once in a while. Are you afraid of the answer?

Yes, or no?

 

[jeffC]

Acts 16:26And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one's bands were loosed. 27And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.
28But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.
29Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.



Please note that Paul and Silas didn't say be baptized (although they said it afterwards) receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, partake of the sacrament, receive a priesthood, go to the temple to get endowments, get sealed to his wife for eternity and be a savior on Mt. Zion for his dead ancestors and then would he be saved.

What he said was BELIEVE and not only would he, the jailor, be saved, but his whole household, too.



Praise be to God



Mac

So, as a result of their belief, do you think they went and learned Jesus' teachings, accepted them fully and got baptised, or did they go their seperate ways and never think upon Jesus again?

 

[ZealouS]

I appreciate all your reponses in regards to the NT verses that contain the term ordinances. I was searching the NIV and it didnt come up because instead of the word ordinance, they use the word regulation.

I appreicate both Ran's and Swart's thorough answers. There are some topics I would like to quesiton you on further but I am busy now and that will have to wait.

For the record, I am a believer in once saved always saved. The only true purpose of works is to store up treasures in heaven and to also prove your belief in Christ Jesus. It is far too easy to say you believe without ever proving it by action. Lip service does not go very far with God. You must do the things he did to prove that you have a true belief in him and if you have that true belief you will never turn away and will not be put to shame on the day of judgement. Thus once you truly believe in Yeshua, you will be saved no matter how many times you stumble a long the way. Saved by Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ is The True Gospel of Christ.

I do not believe that regulations observed by men bring righteousness or salvation. If you are a faithful member of the LDS church, pay your tithing and attend the temple it won't matter if you do not give to the poor, have mercy and love for your fellow man etc. I am sure there are many LDS who do these good things but they will not be favored because of their baptism's for the dead but because of how they treat those whom are ALIVE and around them everday.

Furthermore, Christ did away with such regulations because men were observing them to the T but forgetting or over looking the idea behind them which is to Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself. This is the whole meaning of the collection of books known as the Bible. LOVE is all that matters and until people realize that, they will continue to spin their wheels.

There are so many things that were brought up that I would like to discuss in depth but they will have to wait til the weekend. In the meantime, please keep posting your views and beliefs. I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

Christ guide us,
Jed

 

[Rescued One]

Can someone have salvation and not have eternal life?


John 6
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

If a Mormon wants to discuss salvation, he needs to first define what he means by salvation. If he is speaking of eternal life, he either believes that it is for eternity or that it is for a shorter period of time.

I believe that those who are brought to Christ by the Father shall never hunger or thirst. These persons have eternal security.

 

[Swart]

He was a man of God who preached the gifts of the Holy Spirit were still in effect today and availble to all and also said he possesed these gifts and demonstrated such. He baptised and layed hands on people who he says then recieved the Holy Ghost in the manner your church calls 'as a constant compaion' with evidence of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Well, I don't know much about him. Perhaps you can point to some sources.

The HG is without law and the evidences of the HG will certainly be manifest wherever the HG is. If these things are manifest in the manner mandated by Ephesians and Galatians, then by definition it will be a manifestation of the HG.

I've stated many times, we don't have a monopoly on the HG. What we do have is the Priesthood authourity to act in the name of Christ. The HG can work His purposes with whomever He wishes to work. So I'm not claiming that someone outside of the CoJCoLDS cannot have the HG.

The reverse cannot be said. There are many who claim that Priesthood authourity is not important and then in the same breath, deny us the HG.

 

[Swart]

I believe eternal life has no end. If one defines saved as having eternal life, I do believe it is forever rather than temporary.

How about we put it this way: Do you believe in the Calvinistic Doctrine of 'Perserverance of the Saints'?

 

[Wrigley]

How about we put it this way: Do you believe in the Calvinistic Doctrine of 'Perserverance of the Saints'?

Would that be a problem if she did?

And, do you understand the idea?

From many of your posts, it appears that you don't.

 

[Wrigley]

Yes, that is essentially correct as I do believe that th LDS Church is Christ's church. I don't believe in once saved, always saved as it is commonly understood, so baptism or any other ordinance is not licence for disobediance. I would say that the priesthood authority to perform the ordinances is exclusive to the LDS church.

Since you named this outright, do you believe that "once saved, always saved" gives people license to sin? Do you believe that those who do actually go out and sin more? And, sin "worse" sins?

It's a sad thing when I read comments like yours above. It shows a total lack of understanding of just what eternal security is.

 

[Wrigley]

Hi Phoebe,

I think Ran77 is just wanting a clear cut answer of what you believe on this.

Do you believe "once saved, always saved"?

No fair answering a question with a question!

I couldn't answer that question. I don't know what you ~mean~ by "once saved, always saved."

Why don't you explain what you mean, then I may be able to comment.

 

[Apex]

I couldn't answer that question. I don't know what you ~mean~ by "once saved, always saved."

Why don't you explain what you mean, then I may be able to comment.

You dont know what he means by "once saved, always saved"..... Why am I having a hard time beliving this? This concept is the most contraversial one within mainstream-christianity itself. There has been a plethora of threas about this here at CF.

 

[Rescued One]

You dont know what he means by "once saved, always saved"..... Why am I having a hard time beliving this? This concept is the most contraversial one within mainstream-christianity itself. There has been a plethora of threas about this here at CF.

LDS use the word "saved" to mean different things. Is a person in the Telestial Kingdom saved forever or is he temporarily saved or is he damned?

 

[Tawhano]

So I'm not claiming that someone outside of the CoJCoLDS cannot have the HG

Yes I understand this but it isn’t having the Holy Spirit we are talking about it is the Gifts of the Holy Spirit which is only given by authority and the laying on of hands.

 

[Swart]

Would that be a problem if she did?

And, do you understand the idea?

From many of your posts, it appears that you don't.

That's okay. From your posts it appears you don't understand LDS doctrine.

I'm fully prepared to admit that my impression of Calvinism being about us as mere puppets on a string to a hedonistic god is an oversimplification of Calvinistic belief.

I'll even acknowledge that given a proper understanding I may find myself more tolerant of these beliefs. However, given the ample opportunity that the more prolific Calvinists here have had to expand my understanding of their beliefs and their seeming inability to do so, my stance remains unmolified.

I maintain that 5PC (particularly the concept of Limited Atonement) is an offence to God and diametrically opposed to the Gospel of Jesus Christ as taught in the Bible.

However, if someone wants to present information to me to change my opinion, I'm all ears.

My understanding of the CD od Perseverance of the Saints is that once a person truly turns to Christ they will never abandon Him or turn from the Christian path. This is based upon an erroneous interpretation of 1 Corinthians 15:58, John 5:24 and 2 Timothy 4:7-8. In fact, PS only appears to make sense if you accept the other four points of TULIP.

This is essentially OSAS - Once Saved Always Saved.

It's here that there appears to be a split and introduces what I have termed the "Calvinistic Loophole". One camp appears to admit that a Christian can commit any sin they like and it doesn't matter - they're saved. The other camp finds this to be abhorrent and says that no "true" Christians would ever commit a serious sin. Hence the Calvinistic loophole - if they do commit a serious sin, well they were never really a Christian in the first place.

To me this is cart before the horse stuff and totally contradictory. According to the CD of Total Depravity, all sin separates us from God and there really aren't any varying degrees of sin, so for PS part 2 to be correct, no Christian should ever be able to commit any sin at all.

Feel free to correct me on any point.

 

[Swart]

LDS use the word "saved" to mean different things. Is a person in the Telestial Kingdom saved forever or is he temporarily saved or is he damned?

Of course, it isn't just LDS that have different meanings for Salvation.

When you say Salvation, are you referring to:

1. Sanctification
2. Glorification
3. Justification

Which one?