Ordinances...

[Ran77]

I see that Swart already responded to this - which is great, except that he did so in his typical brilliant fashion and I feel like the act coming on stage after the winning performance. However, maybe I will cover the material in a manner different enough to be of some use.

In your opinion Ran, what is the diffrence between an ordinance and a commandment?

The obvious example would be the ten commandments - which are instructions that have been given to us from God. He expects everyone to obey them and there will be punishments for those that do not.

Then there are the ordinances. As Swart accurately pointed out, they are rituals that are performed by a person holding the correct priesthood authority.

In some cases, the ordinance is performed when a person has progressed spiritually and is willing to commit themselves to God. These types of ordinances could be looked at as contracts, where each side makes promises about what they will do in the relationship.

Baptism is the first ordinance of this type. The person being baptised promises to live his life according to the example of the Savior and do all that is asked of him by God. On God's side of the ordinance, the person is washed clean of his sins and the way is opened - through the weekly administring of the sacrament - for the continued cleansing of sins.

The laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost is tied to the promises of baptism. Since we have agreed to follow the Savior and do what is asked of us, the constant companion of the Holy Ghost will help us in that goal.

Receiving the Endowments and being Sealed to an Eternal Companion are also covenants in which the level of commitment to God is agreed to - at a higher level. I won't go into the details about these.

The ordinances which bestow the priesthood also fall into this category and definately require a greater committment to the person on whom it is performed.


As far as I can tell the remainder of the ordinances are performed for the benefit of the person and do not necessarily require a promise on both parts - except faith is always an important component. This should include: Healing of the Sick, Dedication of Graves, Father's Blessings, and (maybe) Baby Blessings.

Thank you for the information you have provided thus far. In your churches or even your personal opinion, does the Holy Spirit only comes after one is baptized? I assume the pupose of laying on of hands is to recieve the Holy Spirit so that is why I ask this question.

I know a lot of people want to claim this as our belief, but it isn't. The Holy Ghost can influence any person - that it choses to. A very large number of people, who are not LDS, receive such guidance because they are sincere in their quest to serve God.

It's just that after you receive the laying on of hands you can expect Him to be your constant companion. To rely on Him when he is needed - as long as you are living worthily.

It seems as if every fast Sunday I hear a story that probably relates to this. Such as: a person gets into a car and is driving along and feels a prompting to stop and miraculously avoids an accident that happens just ahead; or feels prompted to stop by and see someone and find that person in serious need of some help.

I'm sure the LDS are not the only ones that these events happen to, but I feel that they happen with a much greater frequency to those who have the Holy Ghost as their constant companion.

By the way, feel free to point out what you feel are the most important teachings as well. I would like to see what you feel are the most important teachings.

Oh, the Big Two. Love the Lord with all your heart, mind and sould. And the second is like unto it - love your neighbor as yourself.

As the scriptures point out, everything else is based on these two principles. And if a person were 100% committed (and successful) in following these two rules then there would be no need for any others.

 

[buddy mack]

I think that the sacrament (Eucharist for anyone not current on LDS lingo) is the most important ordinance. For LDS, the sacrament renews the covenants made during the ordinance of baptism, and also renews the blessings of baptism.

Ordinances are more than commandments, in my view. (Even thought they are themselves also commandments).

My fovorites are, don't water your lawn on Sundays, and never drink near-beer.

 

[jeffC]

So it would appear that your saying that commandments determine salvation while ordinances are not sufficient alone for salvation. However, ordinances are exclusive to the LDS church and show that that the LDS church is the true church. Correct?

Thank you,
Jed

Yes, that is essentially correct as I do believe that th LDS Church is Christ's church. I don't believe in once saved, always saved as it is commonly understood, so baptism or any other ordinance is not licence for disobediance. I would say that the priesthood authority to perform the ordinances is exclusive to the LDS church.

 

[Apex]

My fovorites are, don't water your lawn on Sundays, and never drink near-beer.

I must of been asleep in the Sacrament meeting that was anounced in....

 

[Rescued One]

Because it is LDS belief that man can be perfect in keeping the commandments, one would wonder why LDS aren't. And because they aren't, they should be punished.

James 2
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

All who do not keep every commandment deserve equal punishment. They do not deserve to be in separate degrees of glory; instead they deserve the punishment that is reserved for unbelievers.

"Eternal life hangs in the balance awaiting the works of men. This process toward eternal life is a matter of achieving perfection. Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation through the perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us... Being perfect means to triumph over sin. This is a mandate from the Lord. He is just and wise and kind. He would never require anything from his children which was not for their benefit and which was not attainable. Perfection therefore is an achievable goal." (Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, 208).

Moroni 10
32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.


1 Nephi 3
7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.

 

[buddy mack]

Because it is LDS belief that man can be perfect in keeping the commandments, one would wonder why LDS aren't. And because they aren't, they should be punished.

James 2
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

All who do not keep every commandment deserve equal punishment. They do not deserve to be in separate degrees of glory; instead they deserve the punishment that is reserved for unbelievers.

"Eternal life hangs in the balance awaiting the works of men. This process toward eternal life is a matter of achieving perfection. Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation through the perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us... Being perfect means to triumph over sin. This is a mandate from the Lord. He is just and wise and kind. He would never require anything from his children which was not for their benefit and which was not attainable. Perfection therefore is an achievable goal." (Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, 208).

Moroni 10
32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.


1 Nephi 3
7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.

I look into the mirror every morning and see a perfect work of art. me

 

[Rescued One]

I must of been asleep in the Sacrament meeting that was anounced in....

I believe it is time to wake up. If you can't say awake during Sacrament Meeting, at least read your Ensign.

"The Sabbath is a holy day in which to do worthy and holy things. Abstinence from work and recreation is important, but insufficient. The Sabbath calls for constructive thoughts and acts, and if one merely lounges about doing nothing on the Sabbath, he is breaking it. To observe it, one will be on his knees in prayer, preparing lessons, studying the gospel, meditating, visiting the ill and distressed, writing letters to missionaries, taking a nap, reading wholesome material, and attending all the meetings of that day at which he is expected." ("The Sabbath—A Delight," Ensign, Jan. 1978, p. 4.)

 

[buddy mack]

I believe it is time to wake up. If you can't say awake during Sacrament Meeting, at least read your Ensign.

"The Sabbath is a holy day in which to do worthy and holy things. Abstinence from work and recreation is important, but insufficient. The Sabbath calls for constructive thoughts and acts, and if one merely lounges about doing nothing on the Sabbath, he is breaking it. To observe it, one will be on his knees in prayer, preparing lessons, studying the gospel, meditating, visiting the ill and distressed, writing letters to missionaries, taking a nap, reading wholesome material, and attending all the meetings of that day at which he is expected." ("The Sabbath—A Delight," Ensign, Jan. 1978, p. 4.)

wine and less water at the sac meetings, can i get an amen?

 

[Theway]

I believe it is time to wake up. If you can't say awake during Sacrament Meeting, at least read your Ensign.

"The Sabbath is a holy day in which to do worthy and holy things. Abstinence from work and recreation is important, but insufficient. The Sabbath calls for constructive thoughts and acts, and if one merely lounges about doing nothing on the Sabbath, he is breaking it. To observe it, one will be on his knees in prayer, preparing lessons, studying the gospel, meditating, visiting the ill and distressed, writing letters to missionaries, taking a nap, reading wholesome material, and attending all the meetings of that day at which he is expected." ("The Sabbath—A Delight," Ensign, Jan. 1978, p. 4.)

I often try to combine taking a nap and attending my meetings, just to save time.

 

[Apex]

I often try to combine taking a nap and attending my meetings, just to save time.

I have alos found that to be useful.

 

[Ran77]

Because it is LDS belief that man can be perfect in keeping the commandments, one would wonder why LDS aren't. And because they aren't, they should be punished.

For some reason I expect a former member of the Church to be better at presenting our beliefs, but again here is the LDS faith with a twist. It goes hand in hand with the misrepresentation that the LDS believe that they save themselves and it is not through the atoning blood of the Savior.

Here is actually what the LDS believe. We work as hard as we can to follow the commandments of God. We fail. We are insufficient in our works to return to God. Only Christ will ever be perfect and able to accomplish this task.

When we fail, the grace that is afforded us by God comes into play. It makes up the difference of what we have done and what is required to be perfect. It is the grace that so many of the OC want to deny we believe in that makes us perfect - in the same way the OC views believe that it makes them acceptable to God. Same principle. Same thing.

So, unless you are stating that Christ's sacrifice is not capable of washing away our sins and grace is not the method by which we are made clean then you are incorrect. The LDS are perfect in keeping the commandments because grace makes up everything that we lack. We are Perfect in God. (IOW, We are Perfect because of God.)

All who do not keep every commandment deserve equal punishment. They do not deserve to be in separate degrees of glory; instead they deserve the punishment that is reserved for unbelievers.

Gosh, I guess we're all doomed. OC's included. Oh wait, there's that whole plan of salvation thing that states that Christ died on the cross so that we might receive forgiveness of our sins - so that they law no longer has a hold on us. Whew - I was worried there for a moment. . . NOT!!!

"Eternal life hangs in the balance awaiting the works of men. This process toward eternal life is a matter of achieving perfection. Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation through the perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us... Being perfect means to triumph over sin. This is a mandate from the Lord. He is just and wise and kind. He would never require anything from his children which was not for their benefit and which was not attainable. Perfection therefore is an achievable goal." (Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, 208).

You want to paint the picture that the LDS view is an impossibility, but even in the quote you choose to provide it speaks of it being attainable. Your presentation that the LDS believe we must not make any mistakes is just baloney. No one in the Church believes that is possible. Obviously, for the leaders to be claiming that what is being asked of God is attainable, they speak about the situation where we do all we can and God makes up the rest.

Its a shame that this view is being misrepresented on this forum.

Moroni 10
32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

Now what was it I was saying about this situation. . . oh yeah, that God's grace is what makes us perfect in Him and not our works. Thanks for providing the verses that prove my point.

1 Nephi 3
7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.

Since only Christ will ever be perfect in His actions and His works it is impossible for anyone else to be perfect. If the Lord gives no commandment lest he prepare a way for it to be accomplished then it must be that He does not expect that we will be perfect in our works.

And gosh, isn't that what has been said? His grace is the way He has prepared that allows us to be perfect.

Why try and spin this in some other light? We simply do not believe what you have presented. You have even given our scriptures as proof of it.

Yes, I think it is shocking that you would attempt to misrepresent our beliefs in this manner. Especially, when you have the nerve to post the verses that support what we have said about this in the past.

 

[Rescued One]

For some reason I expect a former member of the Church to be better at presenting our beliefs, but again here is the LDS faith with a twist. It goes hand in hand with the misrepresentation that the LDS believe that they save themselves and it is not through the atoning blood of the Savior.

It's interesting that LDS complain about being misrepresented when they themselves misrepresent. I have never in my life made the statement that LDS believe that they save themselves. What LDS have taught is that immortality outside the presence of God the Father is a type of salvation. Eternal life in the presence of the LDS Heavenly Father must be earned by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the LDS church.

Here is actually what the LDS believe.

You know what you believe. Not all LDS agree with you.

We work as hard as we can to follow the commandments of God. We fail. We are insufficient in our works to return to God. Only Christ will ever be perfect and able to accomplish this task.

"Immortality connotes life without end. Eternal life, on the other hand, connotes quality of life — exaltation, the highest type of immortality, the kind of life enjoyed by God himself. It is in the attainment of eternal life, which man must earn in mortality, that he reaches his full potentiality" (Marion G. Romney, of the First Presidency, at General Conference, October 1978, Ensign, November, 1978, p. 14).


“It is through the ordinances and covenants available in the temple that our Father in Heaven has provided the way for us to return to Him rejoicing. To these eternal truths I bear my testimony in the name of Jesus Christ, amen”
(Ardeth G. Kapp in Conference Report, Apr. 1992)Eternal Marriage Student Manual Published by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Salt Lake City, Utah,
© 2001, 2003 by Intellectual Reserve, Inc.

When we fail, the grace that is afforded us by God comes into play.

D&C 14:6-7 "Keep my commandments in all things. And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God."

D&C 42:59-60 "Thou shalt take the things which thou hast received, which have been given unto thee in my scriptures for a law, to be my law to govern my church; And he that doeth according to these things shall be saved, and he that doeth them not shall be damned if he so continue."


It makes up the difference of what we have done and what is required to be perfect. It is the grace that so many of the OC want to deny we believe in that makes us perfect - in the same way the OC views believe that it makes them acceptable to God. Same principle. Same thing.

So, unless you are stating that Christ's sacrifice is not capable of washing away our sins and grace is not the method by which we are made clean then you are incorrect....

D&C 18:46 "And after that you have received this, if you keep not my commandments you cannot be saved in the kingdom of my Father."

D&C 25:15 "Keep my commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt receive. And except thou do this, where I am you cannot come."

1 Nephi 3:7 "...for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them."

So, unless you are stating that Christ's sacrifice is not capable of washing away our sins and grace is not the method by which we are made clean then you are incorrect....

"But under certain circumstances there are some serious sins for which the cleansing of Christ does not operate, and the law of God is that men must then have their own blood shed to atone for their sins." Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 92

The LDS are perfect in keeping the commandments because grace makes up everything that we lack.

If that were official doctrine, all LDS would receive their promised exaltation and LDS scriptures would be in contradiction with your "official" teaching.

 

[Ran77]

It's interesting that LDS complain about being misrepresented when they themselves misrepresent. I have never in my life made the statement that LDS believe that they save themselves. What LDS have taught is that immortality outside the presence of God the Father is a type of salvation. Eternal life in the presence of the LDS Heavenly Father must be earned by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the LDS church.

Well, I know how this would go - unless I find an exact match for the words you used above it will be used to supposedly vindicate your point. I may look over the last grace versus works debate and pull up some of the points you made. I am sure they represent the spirit of the statement I made even if they don't match word for word.

You know what you believe. Not all LDS agree with you.

And that affects my statement. . . how? Not all OC agree with what you post. So what?

I find this to be a rather weak counter to my comments. In fact, I'm not even sure it can be considered a counter.

"But under certain circumstances there are some serious sins for which the cleansing of Christ does not operate, and the law of God is that men must then have their own blood shed to atone for their sins." Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 92

If that were official doctrine, all LDS would receive their promised exaltation and LDS scriptures would be in contradiction with your "official" teaching.

Like I regularly point out, you do not demonstrate a convincing understand of the LDS beliefs - despite the fact that you once were one.

Official Doctrine comes from the scriptures. All of my comments were based on the scriptures that you posted. You might want to rethink your position before you continue with this doomed argument. What is in contradiction is your twist to what you presented.

You seem to want to ignore the part where we are expected to do all we can do. All of the LDS, and Christians, that do that will receive their promised exaltation. That is exactly in line with the scriptures. Only your desire to twist it to mean something else fails to match.

Does your faith allow a person to quit trying to follow Christ and still be saved? Is it a once saved always saved belief that you follow? Unless it is, your argument applies equally to Christian teachings. (Equally false that is.)

 

[Rescued One]

And that affects my statement. . . how? Not all OC agree with what you post. So what?

You said, "Here is actually what the LDS believe." I did not say, Here is actually what the OC believe.

Like I regularly point out, you do not demonstrate a convincing understand of the LDS beliefs - despite the fact that you once were one.

Anyone can accuse another of not understanding. Accusations are worthless when not backed up with proof.

Does your faith allow a person to quit trying to follow Christ and still be saved? Is it a once saved always saved belief that you follow?

What is the point of salvation (eternal life) if it isn't everlasting? If it is merely a temporary thing, then God wouldn't refer to it as eternal life.

 

[Swart]

How do you explain people like Smith Wigglesworth then?

Never heard of him. But from the snippet you posted, I don't see anything that contradicts what I have posted.

 

[Swart]

My fovorites are, don't water your lawn on Sundays, and never drink near-beer.

Nah! Those don't count as ordinances...

...but shaving your beard on Sunday morning could count as an ordinance...

...however, I doubt much could be done to improve the svelt & ruggedly handsome appearance of Buddy Mack!

 

[Tawhano]

Never heard of him. But from the snippet you posted, I don't see anything that contradicts what I have posted.

He was a man of God who preached the gifts of the Holy Spirit were still in effect today and availble to all and also said he possesed these gifts and demonstrated such. He baptised and layed hands on people who he says then recieved the Holy Ghost in the manner your church calls 'as a constant compaion' with evidence of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

 

[gort]

He was a man of God who preached the gifts of the Holy Spirit were still in effect today and availble to all and also said he possesed these gifts and demonstrated such. He baptised and layed hands on people who he says then recieved the Holy Ghost in the manner your church calls 'as a constant compaion' with evidence of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

He also raised the dead. An interesting man who never gave up. Took several tries on one man before he came back to life.

 

[Ran77]

You said, "Here is actually what the LDS believe." I did not say, Here is actually what the OC believe.

This statement does nothing to answer my question about how it affects my earlier comment.

Anyone can accuse another of not understanding. Accusations are worthless when not backed up with proof.

I already have. You made a statement and quoted scripture verses. I then pointed out how what you said did not match Official LDS beliefs, which are based on the scriptures. That is proof. In this situation the verses were very clear in demonstrating my points and can not be reconciled with yours.

What is the point of salvation (eternal life) if it isn't everlasting? If it is merely a temporary thing, then God wouldn't refer to it as eternal life.

I think either a yes or no would be sufficient. Do you believe once saved always saved?

Then we can go from there.

 

[buddy mack]

Never heard of him. But from the snippet you posted, I don't see anything that contradicts what I have posted.

my radar goes up?