Ordinances...

[Apex]

LDS use the word "saved" to mean different things. Is a person in the Telestial Kingdom saved forever or is he temporarily saved or is he damned?

We arent talking about LDS beliefs here. OSAS is a OC belief, not LDS.

 

[Swart]

Yes I understand this but it isn’t having the Holy Spirit we are talking about it is the Gifts of the Holy Spirit which is only given by authority and the laying on of hands.

The Gift of the HG and Gifts of the Spirit are two different things. When one receives the GotHG they are entitled to one or several GotS. This is explained in detail in Moroni 10. GotS accompany the HG. Since the HG is without law, it may bestow GotS to anyone to accomplish the workings of God. It is then up to that individual to see that these gifts are exercised in righteousness.

 

[jeffC]

Since you named this outright, do you believe that "once saved, always saved" gives people license to sin? Do you believe that those who do actually go out and sin more? And, sin "worse" sins?

Well, that depends. My caveat was that I don't believe in once saved, always saved as most people understand it. I think that sincere students of the Bible who subscribe to the OSAS notion will think in their hearts, "shall I sin then? God forbid." My unfortunate personal experience in discussions on morality with most I have met who subscribe to OSAS (that is, not on internet forums) is that they refuse to admit one should abandon their sins because they're already saved. Sure, they admit that they shouldn't go out and sin more, but hey no one's perfect and God saved me for who I am so I don't need to change much. And if I do sin grieviously, it doesn't matter because I'm already saved. I realise this doesn't conform perfectly to pure OSAS teaching in some peoples minds, but in my experience most don't seem to know that and this is what I was talking about.


My real problem with once saved, always saved (as I understand it) is that it requires that one does not willingly sin:

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.​

To say that one sins out of weakness but not will to me says exactly the same thing as what I outlined in the previous paragraph. It abdicates personal responsability for making choices. In my view, it eliminates free will.

.

 

[Wrigley]

You dont know what he means by "once saved, always saved"..... Why am I having a hard time beliving this? This concept is the most contraversial one within mainstream-christianity itself. There has been a plethora of threas about this here at CF.

I just read two posts by two different mormons. Both giving different answers.

Why not give me yours, for possibly a third.

 

[Wrigley]

That's okay. From your posts it appears you don't understand LDS doctrine.

I'm fully prepared to admit that my impression of Calvinism being about us as mere puppets on a string to a hedonistic god is an oversimplification of Calvinistic belief.

I'll even acknowledge that given a proper understanding I may find myself more tolerant of these beliefs. However, given the ample opportunity that the more prolific Calvinists here have had to expand my understanding of their beliefs and their seeming inability to do so, my stance remains unmolified.

I maintain that 5PC (particularly the concept of Limited Atonement) is an offence to God and diametrically opposed to the Gospel of Jesus Christ as taught in the Bible.

However, if someone wants to present information to me to change my opinion, I'm all ears.

My understanding of the CD od Perseverance of the Saints is that once a person truly turns to Christ they will never abandon Him or turn from the Christian path. This is based upon an erroneous interpretation of 1 Corinthians 15:58, John 5:24 and 2 Timothy 4:7-8. In fact, PS only appears to make sense if you accept the other four points of TULIP.

Why, because you said so?

In the past, I have, and I've seen others show why mormonism is incorrect. With concrete examples.

Here we have nothing but your word.

Which to me, doesn't mean too much.

 

[jeffC]

I just read two posts by two different mormons. Both giving different answers.

Why not give me yours, for possibly a third.

Perhaps only because OSAS has many, many doctrinal problems.

 

[Wrigley]

Perhaps only because OSAS has many, many doctrinal problems.

Wrong answer.

Try again.

 

[Swart]

Why, because you said so?

Whats the matter? Don't you like drive-by apologetics?

This thread isn't about Calvinism, so yes it is my opinion. I'd expect people to go to those scriptures and decide for themselves what they really mean, using the guidance of the HG to show the truth of all things.

In the past, I have, and I've seen others show why mormonism is incorrect. With concrete examples.

Here we have nothing but your word.

Which to me, doesn't mean too much.

I wouldn't have expected it to. I don't expect anyone to believe something because of what I have to say. We have the scriptures and we have the HG. We are under instruction to "prove all things, hold fast to that which is good". We achieve that through study of the scriptures, prayer and fasting. We don't need to have others do our thinking for us.

 

[Wrigley]

Whats the matter? Don't you like drive-by apologetics?

This thread isn't about Calvinism, so yes it is my opinion. I'd expect people to go to those scriptures and decide for themselves what they really mean, using the guidance of the HG to show the truth of all things.



I wouldn't have expected it to. I don't expect anyone to believe something because of what I have to say. We have the scriptures and we have the HG. We are under instruction to "prove all things, hold fast to that which is good". We achieve that through study of the scriptures, prayer and fasting. We don't need to have others do our thinking for us.

You have your scriptures.

I, and all of Christianity have the final word. The Bible. In which God has revealed all He needed to, to us.

He didn't need a restoration.

He didn't need smith, or young, or any other mormon leader.

Keep your scriptures.

I'll keep Christ.

 

[Orontes]

I, and all of Christianity have the final word. The Bible. In which God has revealed all He needed to, to us.

How do you know the Bible is the final word?

Also, which Bible are you referring to? Is this the Ethiopic Bible? Is this the Armenian Bible? Is this the Catholic Bible? Is this the Protestant Bible? These are a few of the options: once you've chosen, then tell me what is the justifcation for the choice and how does that impact the notion of "all of Christianity" noted above?

 

[ZealouS]

Beyond the final written word, we have the spoken word whom is Jesus Christ. As long as we try our best to follow the commands to "Love God" and "Love one another" and we truly believe in Christ, we are saved and have complete truth. We have no need for temples for Christ and God are our temple. Our truth is complete because God and his Word are truth.

This does not allow us to choose lives of sin where we pile offense upon offense without remorse for we should constantly strive to be like Christ each and everyday. However, God has given us grace so that when we do fail, and fail we will, we are forgiven our sins. This is the ultimate gift and truth given to us from God our Father through his Son, Yeshua the Messiah.

God the Father and his Son, Yeshua the Messiah be praised forever and ever. Amen.

Jed

 

[Rescued One]

It's here that there appears to be a split and introduces what I have termed the "Calvinistic Loophole". One camp appears to admit that a Christian can commit any sin they like and it doesn't matter - they're saved.

I've lived for over half a century and have never heard anyone say this. I have never heard of anyone who loves sin being called a Christian nor have I heard of any sinless Christians.

The other camp finds this to be abhorrent and says that no "true" Christians would ever commit a serious sin. Hence the Calvinistic loophole - if they do commit a serious sin, well they were never really a Christian in the first place.

Labeling this as a loophole is no different than a Mormon's saying he doesn't have to be sinless if he is trying to do what's right. How many of today's LDS believe you don't have to be perfect, you only have to be on the right path?

To me this is cart before the horse stuff and totally contradictory.

I have no idea how you came up with that conclusion.

According to the CD of Total Depravity, all sin separates us from God

Do you disagree that sin separates man from God?

and there really aren't any varying degrees of sin, so for PS part 2 to be correct, no Christian should ever be able to commit any sin at all.

Are there any men who are saved because they are sinless?

(Titus 3
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us...)

Is a person totally sanctified the moment he comes to Christ? Chapter and verse please.

 

[Rescued One]

How about we put it this way: Do you believe in the Calvinistic Doctrine of 'Perserverance of the Saints'?

Is a person saved by good works that he performs or is he saved by God's grace? Is God's grace dependent on man's performance?

 

[Swart]

I've lived for over half a century and have never heard anyone say this.

Just maybe the people you hang out with are as non-committal as you are.

Once more for the record: Do you believe in OSAS?

For the record, I hear people say it all the time. There are many ECs I know that believe they can commit any sion they like but they're still going to Heaven. In fact, in the "other forum" we're discussing this right now...

I have never heard of anyone who loves sin being called a Christian nor have I heard of any sinless Christians.

I suppose that comes down to semantics and how you define who is and who isn't a Christian. With the "Calvinistic Loophole" this is how it works.

Labeling this as a loophole is no different than a Mormon's saying he doesn't have to be sinless if he is trying to do what's right.

Actually, it's quite different. We can know if someone has repented of a sin because:

1. They will confess it
2. The will forsake it
3. They will make restitution for it

How many of today's LDS believe you don't have to be perfect, you only have to be on the right path?

We strive to be perfect, we fail, we repent, then God makes that weakness a strength. In this way we become perfect in Christ.

We come unto Christ and are perfected in Him - not the other way around, as some of our critics would claim we teach.

I have no idea how you came up with that conclusion.

Cart before the horse: Defining membership in the group through retrospective means. Very convenient. I can easily claim that any LDS who commits a serious sin as someone who was never really LDS.

Contradictory: Both suppositions cannot be correct - they are mutually exclusive. Yet arguments from one camp are often used in support of the other. For example, in the case of a person who was a Christian, turns from Christ and commits murder (for example) then repents and returns to the fold and is proclaimed by both camps to be a "reclaimed" Christian. The 'anything you like' camp cannot claim him to be "reclaimed" as he was never lost. The 'loophole' camp cannot claim him to be reclaimed as PS dictates that a 'Christian' would never commit such as sin. To do so makes them never a Christian in the first place.

Do you disagree that sin separates man from God?

Of course it does.

Are there any men who are saved because they are sinless?

Only one.

Is a person totally sanctified the moment he comes to Christ? Chapter and verse please.

No, he or she is justified. I personally believe a person is sanctified by the reception of the HG as he then has God dwelling within his heart. However, through his/her actions the HG may no longer dwell with them.

[BIBLE]Romans 15:16[/BIBLE]

 

[Swart]

Is a person saved by good works that he performs or is he saved by God's grace? Is God's grace dependent on man's performance?

We are saved by the grace of God through our faith in Christ and judged, everyone, according to our works.

 

[Orontes]

I want to ask about your fist two sentences.

Beyond the final written word, we have the spoken word whom is Jesus Christ.

What is the final written word and how do you know its final? I don't understand the second clause at all. What does: we have the spoken word, Christ that is beyond anything written mean? What are you saying here? If one does have the spoken word of Christ wouldn't that trump the Bible?

As long as we try our best to follow the commands to "Love God" and "Love one another" and we truly believe in Christ, we are saved and have complete truth.

Are these examples of loving one another:

"First off, I would like to add that this post if foolishness."

"On the other hand, Joseph Smith is portrayed as a lamb that went to the slaughter when in reality he shot and killed men before he himself was shot. Why the cover up? Why is your church ashamed to let the whole world know how he really died?"

"The fact of the matter is that your church brings judgement upon its head because it claims the blameless perfect lives of men such as Joseph Smith."

In an inter-faith dialogue where one wants to play the critic its problematic to then site the Second Great Commandment. See the above three examples of acrimony, untutored utterance and hyperbole.

Note: some may be tempted to say their criticism is their love of their neighbor, but such is rhetorically myopic that more often than not simply feeds a self righteousness. None are drawn closer or feel a kinship with their detractors or those who attack what they hold dear.

 

[Wrigley]

How do you know the Bible is the final word?

Also, which Bible are you referring to? Is this the Ethiopic Bible? Is this the Armenian Bible? Is this the Catholic Bible? Is this the Protestant Bible? These are a few of the options: once you've chosen, then tell me what is the justifcation for the choice and how does that impact the notion of "all of Christianity" noted above?

The Bible.

 

[Wrigley]

It's here that there appears to be a split and introduces what I have termed the "Calvinistic Loophole". One camp appears to admit that a Christian can commit any sin they like and it doesn't matter - they're saved.

I've lived for over half a century and have never heard anyone say this. I have never heard of anyone who loves sin being called a Christian nor have I heard of any sinless Christians.

Its called a strawman Phoebe. One that does not deserve the attention.

 

[Wrigley]

For the record, I hear people say it all the time. There are many ECs I know that believe they can commit any sion they like but they're still going to Heaven. In fact, in the "other forum" we're discussing this right now...

Where? Link it.

 

[Rescued One]

We are saved by the grace of God through our faith in Christ and judged, everyone, according to our works.

If we are saved, our names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life. This guarantees that we have eternal life. Eternal life is forever.

Everyone is judged according to their works.And what happens when we are judged by our works? The works of those who never came to Christ are worthless. By grace are we saved---not of works.

God's Grace motivates Christians to obedience. We are not trying to earn a higher position than another Christian. We are only doing what God motivates us to do. Our love for God comes from God.

1 John 4

19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Saving faith is a work of God not man.

1 Thessalonians 1
3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;


2 Thessalonians 1
11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

Why would men expect special positions or rewards in heaven when all their good works were motivated and empowered by God?

1 Corinthians 15
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

My thanks to Tony Warren for pointing this out to me.