Order and Design

[lucaspa]

A theory is based on facts and what we observe. Theories are facts, just more or less an explanation of them.

The first sentence is not necessarily true. Some theories come directly out of imagination and are not based on any observations.

Volume 13, #22 The Scientist November 8, 1999
http://www.the-scientist.library.upenn.edu/yr1999/nov/halim_p1b_991108.html
" When Günter Blobel and David Sabatini first proposed the signal hypothesis in 1971, the whole thing was simply ignored. There was not a shred of evidence to support it. "

As Popper stated "I thought that scientific theories were not the digest of observations, but that they were inventions -- conjectures boldly put forward for trial, to be eliminated if they clashed with observations, with observations which were rarely accidental but as a rule undertaken with the definite intention of testing a theory by obtaining, if possible, a decisive refutation."

I think you meant to say that theories most definitely are NOT facts. They incorporate facts and explain them.

All of your evidence that you believe in, is in that 2000 year old book.

The evidence John uses is his interpretation of that book. You are making the same mistake creationists make: that their interpretation is the correct one and therefore the meaning of the text. So what we have is John's theory of how to intepret Genesis vs the evidence God left in His Creation. God wins.

So either you take the bible literally, and are a fundie. Or you don't take the bible literally and just take it for the ways of good it tries to promote. If you do take it literally, then how can you believe it all when so much of it has been proven wrong? And if you don't take it literally, maybe they just talked about God in a metaphorical sense, and he doesn't really exist, but was the only way to describe things they couldn't explain?

NOW you focus on the interpretation.

If you don't take it literally, another option is that the creation stories tell you about the WHO and WHY of creation and God's Creation tells you the HOW. IOW, they talked about the theology of creation and not the actual mechanism.

Christianity will die off within the next few hundred years, and the next new religion will take hold.[/QUOTE}

And your data for this is?

Look at all the other religions of the world, they are either regarded as 'hokey', and works of fiction rather than reality because they contain things that 'just can't happen'. The same thing happened with Greek and Roman mythology, The Egyptians religion and all of their Gods. There is just too much wrong with the foundation of Christianity and it will never survive the scientific revolution it seems we are in. Go to Europe and try to spout what you believe there, you will be the laughing stock of the continent. They honestly don't believe that anyone really believes this stuff there...

And yet Europe has a lot of Christians. So that falsifies that science is going to kill Christianity. Christian fundamentalism might kill Christianity, but not science as we know it now.

You have touched on a point that you haven't considered very deeply. HOW did theists decide that the other versions of deity were wrong? Obviously theists are capable of critical thinking and aren't afraid to dump versions of deity if they are wrong. So why do they keep believing that there is a deity? They must have some evidence that they find convincing.

And don't pass responsibility for your life onto something that doesn't exist,

Post us the evidence that God does not exist. You stated it as fact, so I expect you to back it as fact. I expect the citation in the scientific peer-reviewed literature.

If you don't have the evidence, then modify your statement to "I believe God does not exist".

Bagfullofsnakes and I discussed intolerant people who promote their faith as fact. You just provided us with a perfect example. Thank you.

 

[JohnR7]

John, there is no way I made a quip or insult.

3. John, I question whether you have a personal relationship with God. That you have a personal relationship with what you call a god is not in doubt, but I do not think that god is God. No matter how many songs you quote.

To me a statement like this is an insult.

 

[FEZZILLA]

This, in a nutshell, is the Argument from Design. When Darwin discovered Darwinian (natural) selection, he discovered an unintelligent designer. Yes, biologial organisms are designed: designed by natural selection.

As to the requirement for a cause, quantum mechanics threw that one out 80 years ago.

Yes,i know about this unitelligent Designer,yet the concept is illogical and very finite in scientific definition. Our universe is understandablly finite obviously.No argument here. Darwin himself admitted that he could be wrong about his unitelligent design theory and became an AGNOSTIC!
Theres is no proof anywhere in science that something unitelligent can create something even has simple as a complex one-celled animal.
The one-celled animal is to complex to not be designed.
If you defend and unitelligent designer and say that,thats the something thats been there from the infinite start,then why is it so hard to believe in a intelligent design that has the intelligence and the cause to created multi-complexs organisms?
Think about that for awhile.

 

[FEZZILLA]

First, the creation stories in Genesis are not "theories" in any sense of the word. They are embedded in the cosmological theories of the Babylonians (flat earth covered by dome with caverns underneath).


I know this one good! And im afraid you are wrong about this.
But before a i flappin my mouth i want you to elaborate further on this concept you just touched on. Please include dates and time periods.
In other words; The axiom of your belief. I had a religion teacher corrected for this one..
Distorted facts are common in secular history.
The Book of Genesis was written by GOD Himself. Moses was a tool.

 

[goat37]

Holy cow, I forgot I even posted that, Lucaspa.

It does seem rather ignorant, doesn't it?

How does this work for you: I don't think there is a God because I have not seen any empirical proof that would make me think otherwise. However, should such proof arise, I would consider it and make adjustments to my thinking accordingly.

 

[FEZZILLA]

Holy cow, I forgot I even posted that, Lucaspa.

It does seem rather ignorant, doesn't it?

How does this work for you: I don't think there is a God because I have not seen any empirical proof that would make me think otherwise. However, should such proof arise, I would consider it and make adjustments to my thinking accordingly.

Have you ever seen empirical proof of evolution?
Have you ever seen a "nothing" before?
Evolutionist critizie christians for believing in a unseen God.
what evolutionist don't realize,is that they believe that an unseen unitelligent nothing created this universe/worlds by complete accident.
Please,read the bible one more time before you commit to the philosophy of death.Please take the time to study the book of life before you make a choice of to which you believe is right or wrong.
Pray to God for help and guidence and He will show you the way...like He did for me. It wasn't a super fast reponse but it was a super solid answer-the footprints in the sand poem was shown to me has axiom proof of Gods existance and how He has carried me through those tough time i went through. they would have been tougher had it not been for God. Jesus will not let you down if you truely seek Him. I am an honest amn and would not ever lie to you or anyone on this board.

 

[Arikay]

You do realize right? that:

•Evolution says Nothing about begining of the universe.

•Evolution says Nothing about the begining of life.

 

[goat37]

I get the feeling that you don't truly understand 'evolution'.


Since we're not allowed to post anything from here to it, i'll just give you the link.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html

and

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html

It has a nice section on observational evolution.

 

[ifriit]

Have you ever seen empirical proof of evolution?

Sure, here's a whole site devoted to detailing it: http://www.talkorigins.org

Have you ever seen a "nothing" before?

Sure, all the time. It's between the all the atoms.

Evolutionist critizie christians for believing in a unseen God.

No, non-Christians do. Evolutionists believe in the validity of evolutionary theory. Please try to keep them straight.

what evolutionist don't realize,is that they believe that an unseen unitelligent nothing created this universe/worlds by complete accident.

And what Christians don't realize is that they believe a tremendously fat woman named Fred created the universe and constantly steals their socks. Silly Christians!*

Please,read the bible one more time before you commit to the philosophy of death.Please take the time to study the book of life before you make a choice of to which you believe is right or wrong.

The philosophy of death? We're talking about evolutionary science here... perhaps you are unaware of that.

Pray to God for help and guidence and He will show you the way...like He did for me. It wasn't a super fast reponse but it was a super solid answer-the footprints in the sand poem was shown to me has axiom proof of Gods existance and how He has carried me through those tough time i went through. they would have been tougher had it not been for God. Jesus will not let you down if you truely seek Him. I am an honest amn and would not ever lie to you or anyone on this board.

I don't doubt that you are honest; I just think you are wrong. Sorry!

*For the humor impaired: The asteriskerated text is a joke intended to illustrate a strawman fallacy.

 

[FEZZILLA]

You do realize right? that:

•Evolution says Nothing about begining of the universe.

•Evolution says Nothing about the begining of life.

No i don't realize that.
I do realize that evolution preaches about the Big Bang beginning.
Evolution preaches random chance over intelligent creation.
Evolution falls under the field of historical studies of human orgins.
.............................................................................................
For the sake of argument though:
If evolution never did say anything about the beginning of the universe,why then is it so hard to believe in God?
Your doing the same same im doing. I pray to an unseen God and He answers me.
You believe in an unseen nothing and it does nothing for you...yet you still believe in the name of science......??

 

[ifriit]

No i don't realize that.
I do realize that evolution preaches about the Big Bang beginning.

Strike one!

Evolution preaches random chance over intelligent creation.

Strike two!

Evolution falls under the field of historical studies of human orgins.

Strike three! Please come back when you either understand what evolution is or are willing to learn.

For the sake of argument though:
If evolution never did say anything about the beginning of the universe,why then is it so hard to believe in God?

Well, I'll tell you one thing, people who try to talk about evolution like authorities and displaying not the least bit of knowledge on the subject does not give me great faith in their ability to be accurate in theological matters.

Your doing the same same im doing. I pray to an unseen God and He answers me.
You believe in an unseen nothing and it does nothing for you...yet you still believe in the name of science......??

Nope.

 

[Arikay]

"No i don't realize that."

Then there are basically three things we can assume.
Either,
-You missunderstood the Theory of Evolution.
or
-Your source was ignorant about the Theory of Evolution.
or
-Your source Lied to you about the Theory of Evolution.

Which is it?

"I do realize that evolution preaches about the Big Bang beginning."

Nope. The Theory of the Big Bang is completly seperate of the Theory of Evolution.

Speaking of the Big Bang, you do realize it was originally created by Christians, and that it helps support christianity, right?

"Evolution preaches random chance over intelligent creation."

Nope, wrong again. Evolution is Not random And There is Nothing in Evolution that says god couldnt have created some of the mutations. Nothing that says he did either.

"Evolution falls under the field of historical studies of human orgins."

And Biology.
.............................................................................................
"For the sake of argument though:

If evolution never did say anything about the beginning of the universe,why then is it so hard to believe in God?"

Its Not. You are under the missguided impression that evolution=Atheism.

It does Not. And its not hard for an evolutionist to believe in god, as a Majority of christians are Evolutionists.

"Your doing the same same im doing. I pray to an unseen God and He answers me.
You believe in an unseen nothing and it does nothing for you...yet you still believe in the name of science......??"

I dont pray to it, because Evolution is not a religion. Nor does it "do Nothing"
Do a bit of research and you will find that not only have we observed Macro evolution, but we have used evolution to accidentally make a radio (ill post the story if you want more info). I also believe one of the new Boeing planes was built partially with Evolution.

above

 

[FEZZILLA]

1.)Sure, here's a whole site devoted to detailing it: http://www.talkorigins.org



2.)Sure, all the time. It's between the all the atoms.



3.)No, non-Christians do. Evolutionists believe in the validity of evolutionary theory. Please try to keep them straight.



4.)And what Christians don't realize is that they believe a tremendously fat woman named Fred created the universe and constantly steals their socks. Silly Christians!*



5.)The philosophy of death? We're talking about evolutionary science here... perhaps you are unaware of that.



6.)I don't doubt that you are honest; I just think you are wrong. Sorry!

*For the humor impaired: The asteriskerated text is a joke intended to illustrate a strawman fallacy.

Talking Points:
1.)Do you realy put your faith in low budget websites?
Why don't you bring the proof to the board so we can all see it and post an it. I never bother looking at websites anymore.If the info is not from the top of the science chain than i don't read it. Im sure NAMBLE has a feqw things on their wedsite that could help evolutionist as well. But that don't mean nothing to me. Don't hide behide your websites,bring the facts here so i can tear them apart!

2.)An Atom is a very little something that we all acknowledge to be there.Are you saying that an atom is an infinite creator? Are not atoms finite? I don't believe you've ever seen a "Nothing" before. If so,can you give me a picture or description of what an infinite nothing looks like.
Yes,i want a infinite elaboration of "nothing".
If you believe in Finite creation than it should be easy for you to comprehend an Infinite Designer (God).

3.)The validity of evolution writters?
You would just love the book,"BONES OF CONTENTION",by Marvin L.Lubenow.

4.)??

5.)Im very well read in evolution. It is the philosophy of death.

6.)Ditto.
I believe that im right and your wrong and thats the memo

 

[notto]

Talking Points:
But that don't mean nothing to me. Don't hide behide your websites,bring the facts here so i can tear them apart!

Why don't you address the evidence presented in the thread on the dinosaur tracks found in coal? Go ahead, tear it apart. You would be the first.

 

[Nathan Poe]

No i don't realize that.
I do realize that evolution preaches about the Big Bang beginning.

No.

Evolution "preaches" nothing.
The Big Bang is a cosmological theory. It has nothing to do with the diversity of life, so it is not a part of evolution.

Evolution preaches random chance over intelligent creation.

No again.

Again, evolution does not "preach" anything.
Evolution proposes a algorhythmic (sp?) non-directed forumla to explain the current diversity of life as we currently know it.

Evolution falls under the field of historical studies of human orgins.

Not quite. You've got the cart before the horse.

Since evolution deals with all life, not only humans, it could be said that historical studies of human origins fall under evolutionary study.

For the sake of argument though:
If evolution never did say anything about the beginning of the universe,why then is it so hard to believe in God?

It's not; not at all. But there are creationists who idolize the Bible over God, and insist that only a literal (i.e. their own) interpretation of the Bible, including Genesis, in necessary to be "Christian."

Your doing the same same im doing. I pray to an unseen God and He answers me.

Good for you. Please pray for a better definition of "evolution."

You believe in an unseen nothing and it does nothing for you...yet you still believe in the name of science......??

Nice strawman.

First of all. www.talkorigins.org will show you that evolution is neither "unseen" nor is it "nothing."

Second, we do not choose to believe in the theory of evolution because it gives us a warm fuzzy feeling. We believe in it becasue we happen to think it's true.

Third, it does do something for us. It gives us a more accurate understanding of the world around us: who we are, and where we came from.

 

[FEZZILLA]

"No i don't realize that."


1.)"I do realize that evolution preaches about the Big Bang beginning."

Nope. The Theory of the Big Bang is completly seperate of the Theory of Evolution.

2.)Speaking of the Big Bang, you do realize it was originally created by Christians, and that it helps support christianity, right?

3.)"Evolution preaches random chance over intelligent creation."

Nope, wrong again. Evolution is Not random And There is Nothing in Evolution that says god couldnt have created some of the mutations. Nothing that says he did either.

4.)"Evolution falls under the field of historical studies of human orgins."

And Biology.
.............................................................................................
"For the sake of argument though:

5.)If evolution never did say anything about the beginning of the universe,why then is it so hard to believe in God?"

Its Not. You are under the missguided impression that evolution=Atheism.

6..)It does Not. And its not hard for an evolutionist to believe in god, as a Majority of christians are Evolutionists.

"Your doing the same same im doing. I pray to an unseen God and He answers me.
You believe in an unseen nothing and it does nothing for you...yet you still believe in the name of science......??"

7.).)I dont pray to it, because Evolution is not a religion. Nor does it "do Nothing"
Do a bit of research and you will find that not only have we observed Macro evolution, but we have used evolution to accidentally make a radio (ill post the story if you want more info). I also believe one of the new Boeing planes was built partially with Evolution.

1.)Uhmm,why is it used so much in refrence of the cosmos?
2.)That is not true! The bible is the only sourse of infomation we need for proof and your claim is not scriptual.
3.)What website do you get your facts from,NAMBLA?
4.)Biology is part of what i already mentioned.
5.)Wrong! Im an expert on atheism/evolution.
6.)The bible does not support this concept.

 

[ifriit]

Talking Points:
1.)Do you realy put your faith in low budget websites?

No, I put my faith in small cardboard boxes and store them in the garage, but that is neither here nor there.

Why don't you bring the proof to the board so we can all see it and post an it. I never bother looking at websites anymore.If the info is not from the top of the science chain than i don't read it. Im sure NAMBLE has a feqw things on their wedsite that could help evolutionist as well. But that don't mean nothing to me. Don't hide behide your websites,bring the facts here so i can tear them apart!

Wow, you've gotten to the "evolutionists are child molester" jokes already, I'm impressed. I don't think I've ever seen the subject matter here drop so quickly so fast. In any case, I gave you a website that contains an archive of information and arguments relevent to the evolution vs. creation discussion. That you don't want to deal with it doesn't particularly concern me, and I don't have the inclination to be your errand boy. Go do your own research.

2.)An Atom is a very little something that we all acknowledge to be there.Are you saying that an atom is an infinite creator?

No, I said nothing's all over the place, between the atoms.

Are not atoms finite?

I need a little more context to answer that.

I don't believe you've ever seen a "Nothing" before. If so,can you give me a picture or description of what an infinite nothing looks like.

Sure, it looks like this:

Yes,i want a infinite elaboration of "nothing".

I don't really have the time for an infinite elaboration; I barely have the time for a finite one.

If you believe in Finite creation than it should be easy for you to comprehend an Infinite Designer (God).

Okay, utter disconnect here. Elaborate.

3.)The validity of evolution writters?
You would just love the book,"BONES OF CONTENTION",by Marvin L.Lubenow.

No, I said the validity of evolutionary theory. It's right there, so I can't explain your failure to get that.

4.)??

The response was an illustration of a strawman argument, used as an attempt to belittle a target group, as was your silliness about what evolutionists "believe."

5.)Im very well read in evolution. It is the philosophy of death.

You contradict yourself.

 

[Nathan Poe]

1.)Uhmm,why is it used so much in refrence of the cosmos?

I think you will find that the majority of those who use it in this way are creationists. And they use it incorrectly, either out of ignorance, or to exploit the ignorance of others.

2.)That is not true! The bible is the only sourse of infomation we need for proof and your claim is not scriptual.

Well, if you choose to worship the Bible, and completely ignore God's other book, the creation itself, that's your business. Just don't expect others to play by your rules.

3.)What website do you get your facts from,NAMBLA?

Personal attacks such as this one are immature and show a lack of character. You can do better.

4.)Biology is part of what i already mentioned.

You didn't mention it before.

5.)Wrong! Im an expert on atheism/evolution.

Since you seem to believe that they are one and the same, then obviously you are not.

6.)The bible does not support this concept.

An uberliteral interpretation of the Bible does not support this concept. What's your point?

 

[Arikay]

Is this what a troll looks like?

Im starting to think so after this point
"5.)Wrong! Im an expert on atheism/evolution."

 

[Jet Black]

1.)Uhmm,why is it used so much in refrence of the cosmos?

there are a finite number of words whipping around, due to there being a finite number of potential meanings.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=evolution

see. now you can apply the word evolution to cosmology (the gradual change from gas clouds to stars and galaxies)

and you can also apply the word evolution to life (evolution from poorly adapted species to better adapted ones)

however the theories remain entirely distinct.