[OPEN]What are the Fundamentals?

[Catherineanne]

How about if we take it a little further, and ask how we can distinguish the expression of Christ's love from the expression of Allah's love?

If we take as a basis for our thinking that God is love, and that Christ, through his Incarnation, reveals that love in all its fullness, then any expression of love, by any human being on this earth, at any time, and under the umbrella of any faith group, will be a reflection of God's love, and a reflection of Christ.

The person may or may not know that, but this is the logical extension of the premise that God is love.

It is not essential for the expression of sacrificial love that the person expressing such love be a Christian. But wherever such love is expressed, imo, Christ is present.

How could he not be, and yet be God?

 

[Catherineanne]

Got it. But then we might need to discuss our differing opinions of Satan's abilities or lack thereof. See what I mean?

No need. There is only one thing he cannot do; he cannot love, nor do anything expressive of love. Those things expressive of love are listed as fruits of the spirit in Galatians.

Ergo, this is the litmus test, and one which Christ himself endorses. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, that ye love one another as I have loved you.

QED.

 

[Catherineanne]

And, if there is a distinctly "Christian" expression of love; and if it differs in some from a Muslim, Hindu or Micmac expression of love; what is it?

The expression of love may be different, but is pretty well irrelevant. If I visit my mum, her expression of love may be a cup of tea. If I visit a friend, it might be a glass of wine.

But in both cases it is the underlying love which matters. Is it about 'me', and meeting my needs in a positive way, to enable me to be who I am, or is it about 'her', and control through dependancy? One way the tea/wine is a gift, the other it is a poisoned chalice, which we can only drink from and take no harm because Christ enables us to.

Same expression, different motive; and it is the motive which matters.

 

[eRev]

Amen, amen and amen

 

[Im_A]

Yes, we are doing the same thing. Which is why I think we ought to do them in different places.

But if you insist... Satan is entirely divorced from God. There is no image of God in him. he has no relationship with God, he has not one bit of goodness.

If you agree, think about this. Forget that we're talking about Satan for a minute because we have presuppositions about him. Imagine what someone would be like who fits the description above. How good would his thinking/reasoning be? My though is that it would be severely damaged if not non-existent. Some think that part of the image of God in humans is reasoning.

Now we know from scripture that it is by the active will of God that creation and us continue to exist. Does God actively will the existence of the being we described? I doubt it since we've already established that there is no relationship whatsoever between God and this being.

So what is the status of Satan? Scripture tells us he has already been overcome. Christ won the battle against him. The parable of binding the strong man refers to Satan. Also note the passage where Jesus says that he saw Satan fall like lightening.

So Satan is a defeated being who is on his way out. His days are numbered, and he is now fighting his dying skirmishes.

I personally don't suggest trying to fight even such debilitated evil on our own. But I can't see it as a big deal for him to cower when we can on the name of Jesus Christ.

So to get to the statement that Satan believes in Jesus Christ. I don't see how that is possible. Satan surely knows Jesus Christ exists. But to suggest that Satan believes in him the way we do is to suggest something that is beyond Satan's ability.

i see your point here, but how can a fallen creature as we are supposed to be, supposed to have any good in it? using your argument that the devil is completely divorced from God , the same can be said in regards to human beings. so why should we have the chance to even be good, or believe in truth?

and with the devil, wouldn't you think an angel in the highest choir of angel (assuming one believes in the ideas about Satan regarding to the devil) know the truth, becuase before its fall, the devil was holy and good and praised God? and if the devil does the desceive, the devil would have to know something to try to desceive people away from wouldn't you think?

 

[angela 2]

i see your point here, but how can a fallen creature as we are supposed to be, supposed to have any good in it?

We don't. God has chosen to have mercy on us.

using your argument that the devil is completely divorced from God , the same can be said in regards to human beings. so why should we have the chance to even be good, or believe in truth?

We are not the same type of beings as angels. We were created for communion with God so a template for different treatment exists. That said, only God knows the reason why he chose to send his Son to us while we were still sinners.

and with the devil, wouldn't you think an angel in the highest choir of angel (assuming one believes in the ideas about Satan regarding to the devil) know the truth, becuase before its fall, the devil was holy and good and praised God?

Since Christianity holds that Satan is the epitome of evil, I would assume he lost all knowledge of God with his fall. I would guess that being ultimate evil and knowing God are mutually exclusive

and if the devil does the desceive, the devil would have to know something to try to desceive people away from wouldn't you think?

Not necessarily. "Deceive" may b e our choice of words. Satan may believe that what he wants people to believe is true.

I'm glad you see my point.

 

[angela 2]

If we take as a basis for our thinking that God is love, and that Christ, through his Incarnation, reveals that love in all its fullness, then any expression of love, by any human being on this earth, at any time, and under the umbrella of any faith group, will be a reflection of God's love, and a reflection of Christ.

The person may or may not know that, but this is the logical extension of the premise that God is love.

Thus my concern with your premise and its logical extension.

Are you suggesting that these people are "anonymous Christians?"

Personally I prefer confessing Christians.

 

[Gukkor]

If we take as a basis for our thinking that God is love, and that Christ, through his Incarnation, reveals that love in all its fullness, then any expression of love, by any human being on this earth, at any time, and under the umbrella of any faith group, will be a reflection of God's love, and a reflection of Christ.

The person may or may not know that, but this is the logical extension of the premise that God is love.

It is not essential for the expression of sacrificial love that the person expressing such love be a Christian. But wherever such love is expressed, imo, Christ is present.

How could he not be, and yet be God?

My thoughts exactly. "Whatever you did unto the least of these..."

 

[Catherineanne]

Thus my concern with your premise and its logical extension.

Are you suggesting that these people are "anonymous Christians?"

Personally I prefer confessing Christians.

I'm sure you do, and you are welcome to them. But a professing Christian without love (which should be a contradiction in terms, but sadly is not) is a clashing gong and a sounding cymbal.

This is not about what I prefer; it is about what God sees when he looks at someone acting in a loving, sacrificial way.

Imo, he sees his Son, reflected back. I very much doubt if he would call such people 'anonymous Christians'. I suspect he would call them his children, but that is for God to say, not me.

By your position, the love they show would be irrelevant to him, if he could not also hear the magic words. My own particular God is not interested in magic words, only in expressions of love.

 

[Toney]

Hi! I was asked to help with the moderating staff in WWMC and I am honored. Please respond or with pms regarding encouragement, concerns or barbs...anything!!

Welcome Protinus.

Figure out how to have [open] tags on every thread in this forum starting with your own.

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

Could it be that we are al journying either towards or away from Christ. And if we are judged, it is in which direction we were heading?

Satan was expelled for attmepting to replace God. That is his motive in all things. But because the universe is intimately knitted to God, it cnot have any other governing it; it would be like us trying to replace water with gas in our own bodies!

IMO.

 

[DailyBlessings]

Or trying to give a flu virus to a computer.

I figure that if some demon hooded Satan figure actually exists, he doesn't deserve much respect or attention from a follower of Christ anyway- kind of a pathetic character unless you start assigning God-powers to him, something I'm not prone to doing.

 

[Im_A]

Or trying to give a flu virus to a computer.

I figure that if some demon hooded Satan figure actually exists, he doesn't deserve much respect or attention from a follower of Christ anyway- kind of a pathetic character unless you start assigning God-powers to him, something I'm not prone to doing.

kind of makes you wonder, who gives the devil its real power.

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

kind of makes you wonder, who gives the devil its real power.

Surely not the christians!!!!

 

[Catherineanne]

Could it be that we are al journying either towards or away from Christ. And if we are judged, it is in which direction we were heading?

Tell me, Flandidly, how do we travel away from an omnipresent God?

Nice trick if you can do it.

 

[Catherineanne]

kind of makes you wonder, who gives the devil its real power.

The devil has no power.

 

[Catherineanne]

Or trying to give a flu virus to a computer.

I figure that if some demon hooded Satan figure actually exists, he doesn't deserve much respect or attention from a follower of Christ anyway- kind of a pathetic character unless you start assigning God-powers to him, something I'm not prone to doing.

Best thing to do, imo, is follow Christ's example. Turn our backs and ignore any talk of satan, or satanic power, which is a contradiction in terms.

If we focus on God, and what he can do, we are worshipping God. And the rest can be easily deduced.

 

[Gukkor]

Tell me, Flandidly, how do we travel away from an omnipresent God?

Nice trick if you can do it.

I believe he was using "towards" and "away" in a figurative sense. He was talking about how closely aligned we are with God spiritually, not actually getting closer to or farther away from Him..

 

[Catherineanne]

I believe he was using "towards" and "away" in a figurative sense. He was talking about how closely aligned we are with God spiritually, not actually getting closer to or farther away from Him..

I'm sure you are right.

I was not being totally serious in my comment; in a way I was agreeing with what FD said.

 

[Im_A]

The devil has no power.

i agree to a certain extent.

i mean either human beings let the devil, or a metaphorical understanding of the devil give them power...but then it almost makes one wonder, what power does God have, unless we human beings give God a chance.