Only way?

Just_a_Joe said:

So rude!

*ignored*

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If the seed that has fallen truly has been snatched away by birds (Matthew 13), then hope (and pray!) that The Sower will keep scattering seed toward you, that it will fall upon useful ground, and that you will notice any growth, being able to nurture it for maturity!

Best wishes for you meanwhile brother, as I pray for you too

Romans 10 is sufficient

Just_a_Joe said:

What this all has to do with the topic, I truly don't know.

Pretty insulting to tell this to someone simply asking questions.

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I am very sorry that you have read me this way. I certainly did not mean to insult you.

I would like you to know that I have cared about you all through this thread, that I have seen your response to truth as being sincere, that you have a chance to stay on that path, to allow the seeds to grow and produce a reproductive faith - and yet we all have a common enemy that uses very mean, deceptive devices to prevent us from living that way.

I sincerely do wish you the best, brother.

Serving Zion said:

If the seed that has fallen truly has been snatched away by birds (Matthew 13), then hope (and pray!) that The Sower will keep scattering seed toward you, that it will fall upon useful ground, and that you will notice any growth, being able to nurture it for maturity!

Best wishes for you meanwhile brother, as I pray for you too

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Isn't the seed our deeds for Christ? If that's the case then we would sow more seed on our own. Right?

Just_a_Joe said:

What this all has to do with the topic, I truly don't know. Pretty insulting to tell this to someone simply asking questions.

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He wasn't insulting you. He was blessing you, but using the language of a parable you weren't familiar with or don't yet understand (it maybe wasn't the best choice of words).

ToBeLoved said:

Isn't the seed our deeds for Christ? If that's the case then we would sow more seed on our own. Right?

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Jesus is saying that the seed is The Word. It is interesting to consider John 5:38 and John 4:14 in that context too, also keeping in mind John 15:5.

ToBeLoved said:

Isn't the seed our deeds for Christ? If that's the case then we would sow more seed on our own. Right?

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The seed is the gospel.

Matthew 13:18-23
18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. 23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

Just_a_Joe said:

Hi. I've been asking this question in different threads at this forum, so far two answers received are "I don't know" or "we're not supposed to know".

Jesus in John 14:6 says He is the only way to the Father.

The people who have never heard about Jesus or never heard a proper gospel about Jesus - are they all going to hell? They have no faith in Jesus.

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The proper gospel is not a story abut Jesus as a man; it is our mistake to call the writings of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John "gospels," whereas they themselves do not call their writings that.The gospel is the power of God unto salvation, that is what the gospel is. It is commonly understood that the story about the man Jesus has not reached the greater part of mankind throughout time. The grace of God that brings salvation, however has appeared to all men, as its written. And grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. Now, all men have a gift from Jesus Christ, which if they heed is to their salvation, and if they ignore, is to thier condemnation, as it is written.

Luke17:37 said:

The seed is the gospel.

Matthew 13:18-23
18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. 23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

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Thanks for listing that out. Yup. I see it is the gospel.

Just_a_Joe said:

In a nutshell, the Christian doctrine is pretty clear to me: believe in Christ or else you're going to a bad place.

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There are certainly many Christians and traditions which either say this explicitly, or at least implicitly; but this isn't the de facto Christian position. Even among some of the most hardline Fundamentalists you'll see the idea that infants and small children will not be held culpable, or that the un-evangelized will not be necessarily held culpable.

In the language of Lutheranism we speak of "ordinary means" and "extraordinary means"; Martin Luther in his writings gives an example that is helpful to understand this: fire. Fire burns, touch it and you'll get burnt. This is the ordinary, natural action of fire, and yet we read in the book of Daniel that Daniel's three companions were put into the fiery furnace and remained completely unharmed. Fire, indeed, burns--and yet here is an extraordinary case where fire did not burn. God, as the Creator and Author of the universe indeed has established that fire burns, but remains completely free to act outside and above the ordinary to accomplish His purpose (in the case of Daniel's three companions, the fire did not burn them). Likewise, the ordinary means by which we as individuals are brought into Christ and His salvation are the established Means of Word and Sacrament (namely Baptism), this does not render God helpless or bound to the established and ordinary Means. We have, for example, the extraordinary case of the thief on the cross to whom Christ says, "You will be with me in Paradise", and we have in the ancient history of the Church those who were martyred as catechumens, from which the ancient Church spoke of the "baptism of blood".

The Church is bound to the preaching and teaching of the ordinary Means of Grace: we preach the Gospel, we administer the Sacraments, in accordance with Christ's command and the promises attached to these, "That faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" and "All of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ", etc.

God is not so bound. If God so wills that someone from a distant tribe who under no circumstances could ever hear of Christ or His Gospel be saved, there remains nothing that would stop God from accomplishing His purposes.

We know, from Scripture, that God is unwilling that any should perish but that all believe and come to repentance; that it is the will of God that all be saved, that God takes no joy in the destruction of the wicked, that God is good and kind to the thankless and the wicked, that He sends His rain upon the just and the unjust alike (and so on and so forth). So we know that God is the God who saves. We know this because He is the God who condescends to meet us in Jesus Christ, and for the sake of His love for all creatures suffered and offered Himself even in death for the sake of the world, and rising from the dead has overcome and defeated every power that stands in opposition to God--sin, death, hell, the world, and the devil.

God's default disposition toward the world is not damnation, but love, grace, and salvation.

This is why Christians, from across theological traditions, frequently insist that God isn't the one who damns us, we are the ones who damn ourselves. C.S. Lewis speaks of the doors of hell being locked from the inside. St. Isaac the Syrian says that the only difference between heaven and hell is how we respond to God's universal, impartial, and all-encompassing love, "Love works in two ways" says St. Isaac, "It torments sinners, as happens here on earth when we are tormented by the presence of a friend to whom we have been unfaithful. And it gives joy to those who have been faithful."

Therefore, I believe the most true Christian response toward the unbelieving, especially the un-evangelized, is what we might call Christian agnosticism: We simply do not know. I also believe that tempered with this there remains also the ancient and historic pious hope of the Church: The hope and the prayer that, indeed, all will be saved. Therefore the true and faithful Christian response is to understand that we do not know, and in light of our ignorance on this to be a people of prayerful hope. And in this prayerful hope we engage our world with the hopeful promises of God in Christ which are through the Gospel to every last one of us, because the Gospel is for sinners and we are, each and every last one of us, all sinners. The preaching of the Gospel isn't first and foremost about "proselytizing", but announcing the good news of God in Christ Jesus, which is why pastors are supposed to be preachers of the Gospel--preaching the Gospel to their flock, because Christians need to hear the Gospel no less so than those who have never heard it, it is for this reason that St. Paul instructs St. Timothy to "preach the Gospel in and out of season", Timothy was a bishop--a pastor--and thus consecrated to the preaching of the Gospel to his congregation. I, a believing and practicing Christian, need to hear the Gospel preached, because the preaching of the Gospel is efficacious in delivering and nourishing faith.

Now, from what you're revealing to me, at least Catholics and Orthodox do not believe in it strictly. They allow salvation of Muslims, Buddhist, pagans etc who haven't heard the sufficient gospel or anything about Christ at all - on the basis of their conscience or little knowledge they had.

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Correct. That the Christian response should be that we believe in the God who gives Himself for the world in Jesus, and thus He is the God who loves the world and saves the world, and we can therefore trust Him to be who He says He is and do what He says He will do; our job as the Church isn't to say who is or isn't saved, but to preach the Gospel, to administer the Sacraments, to be the Christ-bearing people of God out in the world loving the world even as God loves us. For this reason we preach the Gospel, we are called to feed the hungry, serve the needy, forgive our neighbor's trespasses, and be a people bearing and imitating Jesus to the nations. Those who never hear the Gospel, who hear it wrongly, or otherwise don't believe for whatever reason we simply entrust to God. And many of us would say, quite emphatically, that when all is said and done, not one person will be in Hell that doesn't actively and consciously want to be there, as Lewis said, the doors of hell are locked from the inside.

-CryptoLutheran

Just_a_Joe said:

Hi. I've been asking this question in different threads at this forum, so far two answers received are "I don't know" or "we're not supposed to know".

Jesus in John 14:6 says He is the only way to the Father.

The people who have never heard about Jesus or never heard a proper gospel about Jesus - are they all going to hell? They have no faith in Jesus.

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Only one way. Yes one has to believe in Jesus as lord. There is NO other way to the Father.

People that never heard of Christ. Jesus said "if you were blind you would have no sin. You say you see your sin remains" Jesus said if He had not come they would have no sin. So in this world now there are billions that have never heard the true gospel. They are blind. When you hear Jesus is lord that He is the only way that there is no other way to the Father not by anyone else but Christ. As in the sweet sweet Holy spirit and He always points to Christ not HIm self. Then Christ to the Father. When you hear this and YOU by YOUR free will choose not to believe that.. that is a place I would not want to walk.

Yet I believe if your heart in or where ever you are seek Him.. want to know the REAL truth that EVERYONE seems to know lol.. He will find you. Jesus is real. If you truly with your heart seek HIM no matter what you in.. HE WILL be there get you on the true path. Asking those over you elders things like that is wise. But you must at some point SEEK Him on your own.

Just_a_Joe said:

People mean different things by the end.

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Okay...assuming you mean what happens to people who are not born [again] of the spirit of God, after they die. The answer is: nothing...they were nothing, they were born, they live in the world, they die, and again they are nothing. Among this crowd there are, however, also those who take up with Satan following the pattern of his hate toward God, whom will suffer the same fate (eternal fire). But the purely organic person has no part in spiritual eternity, be it good or evil.

Tree of Life said:

Connecting the speculative dots.

Abraham knew Jesus because he knew Yahweh. He did not know him as clearly as we do, but he knew him nonetheless.

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Who are the 'we' that Abraham did not know Jesus as clearly as, that you write aboout? You referred to Jhn 8:58, yet just before that Jesus is clear that Abraham rejoiced to see his day, and saw it. Certainly the "we" must at least have seen his day, and not only read about it. Who are they?

dwhite081705 said:

Who are the 'we' that Abraham did not know Jesus as clearly as, that you write aboout? You referred to Jhn 8:58, yet just before that Jesus is clear that Abraham rejoiced to see his day, and saw it. Certainly the "we" must at least have seen his day, and not only read about it. Who are they?

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Besides all that,
Abraham 'knew' YHWH and Y'SHUA MUCH better than most anyone TODAY.
He is the FATHER OF FAITH.
His whole life is an example for anyone seeking YHWH.

Many people are saved or are considered righteous in scripture without knowing Jesus, like Job or Melchizedek, and neither were even Jewish.

Yes, every person that does not accept Jesus as their Lord and Christ will go to hell. The reason for that is the nature of sin. Sin and our predisposition toward it makes us God's enemies by default. The only just reward for sin is eternal hell. There must be an atonement made for sin. Even before the bible was written, there were those of Adam like Noah who were saved by faith in the coming Messiah. They would make sacrifices to God to atone for their sins because they knew that they were sinners. Their hope and sanctification came from their faith in the coming messiah. When Japheth, Ham and Shem filled the earth, the knowledge of God and the messiah went with them. However, the peoples of the earth eventually rebelled, forming religions around idols and gods throughout the earth. There is a punishment for their behavior unless they repent.

For one - Where more is given, more is required. (See Luke 12:47+48).

Secondly, Yeshua is the embodiment of all that is right and good.

So, if people who haven't heard The Gospel, believe in doing what's right and good, they are believing in Yeshua, in the best way their situation allows. So I can't see them as being condemned.

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. <---> 1st John 2:2

On the other hand for us who have heard The Gospel, and who believe we've accepted Christ, if we do not also believe in doing what is right and good, then we are likely presuming too much, and in danger of condemnation.

wayfaring man said:

So, if people who haven't heard The Gospel, believe in doing what's right and good, they are believing in Yeshua, in the best way their situation allows. So I can't see them as being condemned.

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It's not what they believe that YHWH'S WORD says HE JUDGES, but what they DO.
(in ROMANS)

wayfaring man said:

On the other hand for us who have heard The Gospel, and who believe we've accepted Christ, if we do not also believe in doing what is right and good, then we are likely presuming too much, and in danger of condemnation.

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Ditto. From Corinthians.
2 Corinthians 5:10
KJ21
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to what he hath done, whether it be good or bad.