Only way?

[Vicomte13]

Hi. I've been asking this question in different threads at this forum, so far two answers received are "I don't know" or "we're not supposed to know".

Jesus in John 14:6 says He is the only way to the Father.

The people who have never heard about Jesus or never heard a proper gospel about Jesus - are they all going to hell? They have no faith in Jesus.

No, you misunderstand. Jesus is indeed the only way to the Father, because the Father has appointed him to judge and to reign. The Father resides in the City of God, and at final judgment, each person passes before the judgment seat for the final determination. Those who pass judgment enter into the City. Those who fail it are thrown into the Lake of Fire for the second death - utter destruction.

Jesus is the one who decides. Nobody comes to the Father except through Jesus' decision. Jesus said (over and over and over and over and over and over again, dozens of times) that he will be searching men's hearts and judging them by their deeds. Not like some blind human, who does not understand WHY a man has acted as he did, but as a just judge who knows all the facts truly and who cannot be deceived.

Jesus said, pointedly, to believers "What good does it do you to say you follow me if you do not keep my commandments?" Anybody who thinks that merely what is in a man's head determines his final judgment is simply not listening to the man he claims to follow.

Jesus said that he had many sheep in many sheepfolds.

Yes, Jesus said that none comes to the Father except through me. He did not say that he, with command over angels and spirits and messengers, cannot touch the hearts of those who do not know of him as Jesus. He certainly crushed the hope for those who MET HIM and who rejected him, but he spoke about the deeds of intentions of men, of searching their interiors, the things others cannot see.

Given what Jesus said, there is no reason to believe that he will not see the deeds and motivations of all men from all quarters, and that those who have never had the chance to hear of him directly, but who have nevertheless been touched by the angels and by spirits - for Jesus can send those to all. There is no reason to assert that such men are without hope.

Aborted babies are souls, but never had a chance to be baptized or hear anything. Same with all tiny babies who die crib deaths. They never believed. Are they, therefore, also doomed? No. Jesus said of them that their angels are always facing God, and that one must become like them to enter the Reign of God. So, there's a fairly massive group of non-Christians who are well-nigh certain to be passing final judgment, even though they never believed in Jesus, nor could even pronounce his name. And they - as all must - pass THROUGH Jesus to the Father. He judges them, and finds them to be blameless in their deeds, and they pass into the City.

All have not sinned. Babies have not. They do not need to be forgiven sins, because they haven't committed any. We slaughter 2 million a year, and they have the bright hope of residing in the City of God at the end. Those who killed them, not so much.

 

[Vicomte13]

There will be not one who has not heard the GOSPEL

Babies slaughtered in the womb will have never heard the Gospel.

 

[Vicomte13]

The "rules" of salvation seem different then than they do now and it seems that today every person needs an understanding of who Jesus is to obtain salvation from him.

It only seems that way. What Jesus actually said said otherwise. He has promised that men will be judged by what they DID, and their motivations for doing so.

 

[Vicomte13]

However, John 14:6 a

It is misused. It is true, none comes to the Father except that Jesus decides it shall be so. That does not mean that Christians get to set the terms by which Jesus decides that. Various Christians go ahead and do that anyway: set the terms, and they say that it means various different things - usually that amount to "You have to believe what I believe". Unfortunately for their pride (but fortunately for humanity at large) Jesus actually said the terms of judgment: We're judged by our deeds. But given that any normal grown up person has committed lots of deadly sins, everybody would be doomed...except that Jesus gave a way to be forgiven sins: forgive others the sins they commit against you. Jesus will then do the rest of the forgiving. This applies to all of humanity, not just Christians. The merciless, Christian or pagan, will be judged without mercy. The merciful, Christian or pagan, will be judged with mercy. The forgiving will be forgiven. The unforgiving will not be forgiven to the extent of his own lack of forgiveness.

Jesus said that you will be measured by the measure by which you measured. Meaning: God will judge YOU based on the same criteria that you judged others.

Knowing Jesus means that you get the "inside baseball" and actually KNOW that, and can take immediate positive steps to get right with God. NOT knowing Jesus means that you have to feel your way forward by instinct and hope that God sends angels and his spirit to guide you, even though you're blind.

Unborn babies are souls that never had a chance to hear anything or believe anything. They also never DID anything, which means they are sinless and have nothing to be forgiven. They aren't Christians, but they still go to God. Little born babies who die crib death are the same: sinless, and therefore not needing forgiveness. At some point in childhood, bad deeds begin, and forgiveness is needed to be forgiven them.

It's not as dire as those who misread John 14:6 would have you believe: there is hope. But in any case you don't have to worry about that. It is as it is, and nothing you believe or disbelieve can change any of it. We have not been given the knowledge to be able to make these judgments, or the power to change anything that others do, or the responsibility for the final judgment of others. We're responsible for ourselves, and we need to tend to our own gardens. Stick to the path, and you don't have anything to worry about. Forget to mind your neck and start focusing on what others are doing, and it's a cinch you'll be setting up your own measure of judgment...and then you'll be judged by that very yardstick, and fail before a law of your own making. So don't do that. Don't hurt people. Be kind to everybody. Treat people and animals - all of God's creation - well and with respect. Forgive everybody the bad things they do. Read what Jesus had to say and use it to fortify you. And don't get into fights with Christians who presume to know more than they do, and to have authority they don't. You'll just end up with high blood pressure and flaring hemorrhoids and, really, who needs that?

 

[Strong in Him]

It only seems that way. What Jesus actually said said otherwise. He has promised that men will be judged by what they DID, and their motivations for doing so.

People who never get to hear about Jesus or read the Bible will be judged by what they do. People who have opportunities to go to church, read the Bible, hear about Jesus but choose not to will not be told, "that's fine; you'll just be judged by your deeds."

 

[Vicomte13]

People who never get to hear about Jesus or read the Bible will be judged by what they do. People who have opportunities to go to church, read the Bible, hear about Jesus but choose not to will not be told, "that's fine; you'll just be judged by your deeds."

People who never get to hear about Jesus or read the Bible will be judged by what they do. People who have opportunities to go to church, read the Bible, hear about Jesus but choose not to will not be told, "that's fine; you'll just be judged by your deeds."

It's actually the same thing. All people everywhere are judged for the same deeds. The thing is that the guy who is taught the Christian message knows what the deeds to avoid and to do ARE, for sure, and knows why he has to behave right, and who it is he's following, and what awaits in the end. The one without it is groping blind and doesn't know he's blind, and so is really reliant on the help of angels he doesn't know exist. The Christian is in a much better place because of his knowledge - provided he uses the knowledge. If he doesn't, he doesn't have much to look forward to.

Search world history, and you will find precious little in the form of non-Christian charity. But you may find kind and peaceful individual souls.

 

[Colter]

God is the way to God. All who seek will find.

 

[Jonathan Mathews]

Thank you.

But then, what about Christianity? Because that's not what Christianity teaches. At least in my understanding.

Joe...man.... you really ask some GREAT questions!! And I'm excited for you because I can tell you're genuinely seeking the truth.....I sincerely hope you come put your faith in Jesus Christ! He'll NEVER let you down, and He'll "guide you into all truth" as He said in John 13:16

Unfortunately, a lot of well-meaning Christian leaders have taught (incorrectly) that God's Good News to Mankind cannot be spread without Christians evangelizing (sharing their faith). They are trying to motivate "Christians" to Evangelize.

However, the Bible does not say God NEEDS us at all. In fact, it says God doesn't need us for ANYTHING!! (Read Acts 17:24-28) It simply says "How will they hear unless someone tell them?" For example, God could just use Angels to share the Gospel like He does in Revelation 14:9-11. Or, God could simply appear to people Himself as He's done since the beginning of time, in Christophanies ("appearances of Christ"), in dreams, in visions, etc.

God invites (yes even COMMANDS) His followers to spread the Good News of Jesus Christ. We get the PRIVILEGE of sharing the Gospel, and we're required to, because God commands it. (And what kind of loving person would HIDE this knowledge of FREE IMMORTALITY????)

So even thought God does not NEED anyone for anything, He generously invites and commands us to be active in spreading His Kingdom, and He rewards us for doing so, both in this life AND the next What GRACE!!! Also, wanting to "evangelize" is an automatic result of receiving God's Spirit. When you get forgiven all your sins, you just want to tell someone they can be forgiven too. Anyone without this desire is SERIOUSLY questionable in my eyes regarding the authenticity of their self-declared "faith".

 

[Strong in Him]

It's actually the same thing. All people everywhere are judged for the same deeds. The thing is that the guy who is taught the Christian message knows what the deeds to avoid and to do ARE, for sure, and knows why he has to behave right, and who it is he's following, and what awaits in the end. The one without it is groping blind and doesn't know he's blind, and so is really reliant on the help of angels he doesn't know exist. The Christian is in a much better place because of his knowledge - provided he uses the knowledge. If he doesn't, he doesn't have much to look forward to.

Search world history, and you will find precious little in the form of non-Christian charity. But you may find kind and peaceful individual souls.

I may have misunderstood here. Are you saying that we are all judged by deeds alone, but the Christian knows Jesus and reads Scripture and therefore knows which deeds to avoid so that they won't be judged harshly??

If so, that is incorrect. Jesus is the only way to God and the only one who saves us.
Christians who have trusted Jesus as their Saviour will not be judged for their sins and wrongdoings - Jesus took the punishment for those and we have trusted in his salvation and forgiveness. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 3 that our work will be tested by fire. If it is built on the right foundation, it will survive; if it is not, it will be destroyed. The person themselves will be saved - only just,like someone who has escaped a fire - but everything they did will be destroyed. My understanding from Scripture is that Christians are rewarded for our works; Jesus talked of storing up treasure in heaven, and told a parable of people being rewarded for what they had done with their talents. (NB this was money in the parable, but it was something entrusted to them by their master.)

 

[Vicomte13]

Christians who have trusted Jesus as their Saviour will not be judged for their sins and wrongdoings

Yes they will. He said so directly, explicitly, 6 times in a row in Revelation in his letter to the Churches - real Churches, real Christians - judged by their deeds, risking having their lampstands thrown down and being spewed out of God's mouth for their deeds.

This, of course, is a fundamental division in Christianity, and we're not going to resolve it here.

 

[Strong in Him]

Yes they will. He said so directly, explicitly, 6 times in a row in Revelation in his letter to the Churches - real Churches, real Christians - judged by their deeds,

No, he said to some of the churches, "repent OR I will return", Revelation 2:5; Revelation 2:16. He told the church at Sardis to wake up and strengthen what remained OR he would come as a thief, Revelation 3:3. And told the church at Laodicea to buy ointment and white robes because they were poor and naked. He didn't say that he would punish the church at Thyratira for tolerating Jezebel - bt he said that he held it against them.

The Spirit of truth convicts us of sin and leads us into all truth, and the Lord may well use certain incidents to get our attention or to get us back on the right path. But these letters do not say that after death, Christians will be punished or judged for their sins.

Otherwise, what did Jesus come and what has he saved us from? Why would he have said that he came to give his life as a ransom for many, Mark 10:45, that his blood would be shed for the sins of many, Matthew 26:28, that he came to seek and save the lost, Luke 19:10, and that whoever came to him would have eternal life and never perish, John 10:28 - if we can come to him, trust him then die and be judged for our sins?

 

[Vicomte13]

This issue is one of the unbridgeable gaps of Christianity. We could repeat the exercise of each listing the reasons why we're each sure we're right. Or we could skip it. I'm going to skip it, as it never bears anything but bitter fruit.

 

[Strong in Him]

This issue is one of the unbridgeable gaps of Christianity. We could repeat the exercise of each listing the reasons why we're each sure we're right. Or we could skip it. I'm going to skip it, as it never bears anything but bitter fruit.

That's a shame.
We're talking about salvation; the heart of the Gospel, and what the Lord Jesus did for us to reconcile us to God. It's a great shame - even a tragedy - if it is thought to be an "unbridgeable gap".

I completely agree that it could become a circular argument, and we just quote various Scriptures to show we are right. Such a debate could also get somewhat heated. But if we don't know, or can't agree on, our faith and the Gospel, how can we explain it to others - in a forum called "exploring Christianity"?

 

[Vicomte13]

I completely agree that it could become a circular argument, and we just quote various Scriptures to show we are right. Such a debate could also get somewhat heated. But if we don't know, or can't agree on, our faith and the Gospel, how can we explain it to others - in a forum called "exploring Christianity"?

That's what will happen. It has been happening for five hundred years. We will each quote Scriptures, they contradict, and if we persist, the conversation will indeed get heated.

The problem is not that we don't know our faith and the Gospel. We both know it. We both can explain it to others. But what we know and what we will be explaining, is quite different. And we can't agree on it because we are both certain we are right. Writ large, this is why Christianity is divided. It cannot be reconciled either, without one capitulating to the other, because the positions are almost polar opposites.

There are people who do yeoman's work trying to find the common ground, trying to show that, deep down, the two belief systems are the same. But they aren't. They can't be reconciled, and they both cannot be simultaneously true. The most well-meaning apologists in the galaxy cannot square a circle.

So, then, the choice we each face is: What do we DO about it? Neither one of us is going to abandon our faith, what we know to be true. What does that leave, then? Fight about it endlessly and fill the air with rancor? I used to enjoy that, when I was younger. I've outgrown it. It's boring and dull, because the exact same arguments have been made for five hundred years - the arguments were never convincing, and they still aren't. That's why they still go on and on. People see the same texts through different eyes, and they assign different authority to different words, and there is nothing that can be done, nothing at all, to come to agreement, other than to die and see directly the truth - which may not be EITHER view, or maybe both are simultaneously true, somehow, at a level beyond human logic.

In any case, I think that we can state our belief directly and firmly on a thread entitled "Exploring Christianity", but then just walk away from the bickering.

I think it might be possible to have such a conversation in private, without an audience. I don't think it would change any minds, but I think that it would allow the sides to understand that the other are not heretics.

In a nutshell, it comes down to how one weighs the words of Scripture, what trumps what. This is a difficult conversation to have in private. It requires suspending certitude and disbelief long enough to allow the other's argument. In public, such suspension and tolerance isn't possible.

And even then, after the private conversation, the gulf that separates the two belief systems is too wide for most to ever cross while living.

Which is why, in the end, it's best to leave it alone rather than fight endlessly about it, in public, with no hope of conclusion.

 

[bcbsr]

Hi. I've been asking this question in different threads at this forum, so far two answers received are "I don't know" or "we're not supposed to know".

Jesus in John 14:6 says He is the only way to the Father.

The people who have never heard about Jesus or never heard a proper gospel about Jesus - are they all going to hell? They have no faith in Jesus.

Yes, there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.

 

[JacksBratt]

Babies slaughtered in the womb will have never heard the Gospel.

Nor will they have sinned.

 

[JacksBratt]

Because death is normal, this isn't our permanent home. We have the fossil proof as well as radiometric dating methods to determine that the earth is very old. The Hebrews creation story isn't accurate.

Death is not normal. It was never our intended end. We were not created to die but "it is appointed unto men, once, to die". This is due to the fall of Adam and Eve.

The fossils prove one thing and one thing only.... that animal was alive and died.
Fossils cannot tell us anything else. All the other "information" is speculation, extrapolation, assumptions and guesses.

As for mans method of setting dates and the age of ancient things..... they are in error. I don't know enough about the process but I do know that things that are very recent have been dated as thousands of years old. One part of a discovery is dated thousands of years different than another part of the same item. It is not reliable. Man's wisdom is false wisdom.

In the end we will know why it is wrong. Some scientist will discover something that causes an error and we will know. Or it may have already been discovered and covered up so as not to cause a huge rift in the false theory of evolution and the whole old earth farce.

God told us how old the earth is and you can calculate it using the genealogy records in the Bible.

 

[Vicomte13]

Nor will they have sinned.

True. Nor have babies that have been born. Which is why "All have sinned" cannot be read literally, because read literally, it's false.

 

[Colter]

Death is not normal. It was never our intended end. We were not created to die but "it is appointed unto men, once, to die". This is due to the fall of Adam and Eve.

The fossils prove one thing and one thing only.... that animal was alive and died.
Fossils cannot tell us anything else. All the other "information" is speculation, extrapolation, assumptions and guesses.

As for mans method of setting dates and the age of ancient things..... they are in error. I don't know enough about the process but I do know that things that are very recent have been dated as thousands of years old. One part of a discovery is dated thousands of years different than another part of the same item. It is not reliable. Man's wisdom is false wisdom.

In the end we will know why it is wrong. Some scientist will discover something that causes an error and we will know. Or it may have already been discovered and covered up so as not to cause a huge rift in the false theory of evolution and the whole old earth farce.

God told us how old the earth is and you can calculate it using the genealogy records in the Bible.

If you were to study dating techniques such as radioactive decay rates using the half lives of isotopes you will learn how we can date the earth at 4.5+ billions of years old as well as life at 3 billion and the Cambrian explosion at 350,000,000 years. The fossil record demonstrates many forms of life that lived during many different ages as well as the evolution of those early life forms which lead to the next. Humans and our pre-humanoid ancestors date to millions of years old.

The authors of the Bible didn't know any better, they were just writing a story.

 

[Vicomte13]

If you were to study dating techniques such as radioactive decay rates using the half lives of isotopes you will learn how we can date the earth at 4.5+ billions of years old as well as life at 3 billion and the Cambrian explosion at 350,000,000 years.

True. The pertinent question then is whether or not the clock used to make the measurements - radioactive decay - has in fact been uniform. If the clock has slowed down significantly, or sped up, the estimated dates will be off, perhaps by orders of magnitude.

There was interesting work by the Russians that indicated that the speed of light may have decayed over the ages. And "c", of course, is a fundamental factor in any process involving energy - including radioactive decay.

This isn't an argument, just an observation of the need to assume a constant rate of decay over time for the clock to be accurate. If c has decayed, then the rate of decay has also decayed with it, and the clock has slowed down. How much? Well, that's an interesting question without a currently known answer. The Soviets speculated perhaps 20,000 times.