Only way?

[Just_a_Joe]

Hi. I've been asking this question in different threads at this forum, so far two answers received are "I don't know" or "we're not supposed to know".

Jesus in John 14:6 says He is the only way to the Father.

The people who have never heard about Jesus or never heard a proper gospel about Jesus - are they all going to hell? They have no faith in Jesus.

 

[rob_aston]

The people who have never heard about Jesus

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

 

[Just_a_Joe]

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Is this supposed to give an answer to my question? They are going to hell because there is no excuse?

 

[Serving Zion]

Hi. I've been asking this question in different threads at this forum, so far two answers received are "I don't know" or "we're not supposed to know".

Jesus in John 14:6 says He is the only way to the Father.

The people who have never heard about Jesus or never heard a proper gospel about Jesus - are they all going to hell? They have no faith in Jesus.

Please consider these scriptures too:

John 15:22
Jeremiah 17:10
Luke 12:47-48

It isn't for me to suggest an absolute answer to your question at this time, as I would only be speculating on future events. However, Jesus has described The Final Judgment in Matthew 25:31-46, whereby criteria for blessing and curse is wholly due to our moral conduct - whether we are loving and kind, or whether we are selfish and uncaring. Naturally, this may not always be so black-and-white, so the judgment needs to be relative to one's personal responsibility - are they truly culpable and guilty, were they acting contrary to their natural character, etc. Needless to say, a lot more information needs to be considered than we will typically have access to.

In context of the Christian view of The Final Judgment, when He returns to resurrect and judge the living and the dead, probably John 10:16 will be fulfilled. I believe this, because as I chat with non-Christian people, they usually listen keenly to my descriptions of the gospel as though there really is a heart inside of them that longs for Him.

So, yeah, Jesus says that He is gatekeeper, as in John 10:1.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The people who have never heard about Jesus or never heard a proper gospel about Jesus - are they all going to hell?

Not necessarily. Read Romans.

They have no faith in Jesus.

Really?
Again, I think Romans may reveal YHWH'S PURPOSE, PLAN, and POTENTIAL(at least) SALVATION (THRU Y'SHUA ALWAYS) even to gentiles who have not heard of Jesus. Perhaps 'more' being saved than of those who did hear of Jesus! (percentage-wise and/ or numbers wise - only YHWH KNOWS).

 

[Just_a_Joe]

Please consider these scriptures too:

John 15:22
Jeremiah 17:10
Luke 12:47-48

It isn't for me to suggest an absolute answer to your question at this time, as I would only be speculating on future events. However, Jesus has described The Final Judgment in Matthew 25:31-46, whereby criteria for blessing and curse is wholly due to our moral conduct - whether we are loving and kind, or whether we are selfish and uncaring. Naturally, this may not always be so black-and-white, so the judgment needs to be relative to one's personal responsibility - are they truly culpable and guilty, were they acting contrary to their natural character, etc. Needless to say, a lot more information needs to be considered than we will typically have access to.

In context of the Christian view of The Final Judgment, when He returns to resurrect and judge the living and the dead, probably John 10:16 will be fulfilled. I believe this, because as I chat with non-Christian people, they usually listen keenly to my descriptions of the gospel as though there really is a heart inside of them that longs for Him.

So, yeah, Jesus says that He is gatekeeper, as in John 10:1.

Interesting. Sounds pretty vague. So, Jesus will judge all people according to their thoughts and deeds, and will take into account all the circumstances? At that time He will also save some non-Christians - not of His flock? Or does "His flock" imply the Jews?

 

[Just_a_Joe]

Not necessarily. Read Romans.

Really?
Again, I think Romans may reveal YHWH'S PURPOSE, PLAN, and POTENTIAL(at least) SALVATION (THRU Y'SHUA ALWAYS) even to gentiles who have not heard of Jesus. Perhaps 'more' being saved than of those who did hear of Jesus! (percentage-wise and/ or numbers wise - only YHWH KNOWS).

I'm not interested in knowing the numbers, just what fate awaits the people who haven't heard. What is the plan in Romans for those people, can you share your thoughts on that?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I'm not interested in knowing the numbers, just what fate awaits the people who haven't heard. What is the plan in Romans for those people, can you share your thoughts on that?

No.
You'll have to read it.
YHWH has not left anyone out of HIS PLAN.
You don't have to know the numbers to TRUST HIM.
That's not the point of SCRIPTURE.
(other than, as Y'SHUA says, few find the road to life).

 

[Just_a_Joe]

No.
You'll have to read it.
YHWH has not left anyone out of HIS PLAN.
You don't have to know the numbers to TRUST HIM.
That's not the point of SCRIPTURE.
(other than, as Y'SHUA says, few find the road to life).

I didn't even bring up the question of numbers. I'm asking about the way. I did read the Book of Romans.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I'm not interested in knowing the numbers, just what fate awaits the people who haven't heard. What is the plan in Romans for those people, can you share your thoughts on that?

I'm pretty sure there is something in the Bible that talks about how the gospel will be preached to all the world before Jesus returns.

Can anyone help me out with the verses?

 

[redleghunter]

I'm not interested in knowing the numbers, just what fate awaits the people who haven't heard. What is the plan in Romans for those people, can you share your thoughts on that?

Process of elimination.

You and I know God's Holy standards and His plan of redemption. We certainly have no excuse.

A family in Bangladesh perishing in a mudslide circa 40AD not having the benefit of someone bringing them the Gospel before their demise?

First point, the above example is a fabrication in that I don't know if Bangladesh received the Gospel at that point in time.

Which leads me to the second point...The Gospel and God reaching people in remote areas is not dependent on mankind but God. Too many examples to list from the Bible on how God reached out to those that seek Him. Look up Haman. The Ethiopian eunuch so many more.

Based on the above, we see that it is God who moves, acts and does so by His Will. Case in point:

John 3: King James Version (KJV)
3 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.(KJV)

One of the clear messages which we observe in Christ's ministry is his engagement with people concerned about other's standing with God or righteousness. He rebuked the Pharisees with the following parable.

Luke 18: King James Version (KJV)

9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. (KJV)

The good news (or bad) is you and I know the laws of God. Which means we know what sin is. We also know the consequences of our unrepentant sin. There are no hypotheticals with us and everyone reading this. We also know the Gospel message of God's Grace for sinners. We both have no excuse. There are no manmade or man thought up loop holes. We are 100% accountable. We are not a Mongolian sheep herder from 33AD.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Hi. I've been asking this question in different threads at this forum, so far two answers received are "I don't know" or "we're not supposed to know".

Jesus in John 14:6 says He is the only way to the Father.

The people who have never heard about Jesus or never heard a proper gospel about Jesus - are they all going to hell? They have no faith in Jesus.

I think it's helpful that we understand Jesus' statement in its overall context, especially in the overall context of John's Gospel.

To do that I think we should take a step back and look at how the author begins, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God, this one was in the beginning with God." A few verses later we read, "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us", and also, "No one has at any time seen God, but God the only begotten, has made Him known". This gives us the theme and basis thesis for John's Gospel: Jesus Christ is the very Word of God made flesh who makes the Father known. We can see this theme time and again throughout the text as Jesus is spoken of as the One whom God has sent, as speaking only what the Father has given Him to say, and famously, "If you have seen Me you have seen the Father". Because this is John's point, Jesus makes God known; Jesus uniquely makes God known. Jesus is the only one who can truly make the Father known to us because He, uniquely, is the very Word who was in the beginning with God and is God.

Let's notice a few things also which are not found in the text you presented: Jesus at no point says, "Believing certain things about Me is the only way to be saved."

Instead, here is the immediate context of Jesus' words,

"Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you know me, you will know my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”

Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own; but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me;"

Jesus as the way to the Father is explicitly in connection with Jesus as the One who makes the Father known.

The point here isn't believing the right things to go to heaven, of having the right knowledge to make it to the hereafter; it's about Jesus as the One who makes the Father known and that in Christ God reveals Himself and that God is known to us through His Son.

So we can then turn to your question about the fate of those who never heard about Jesus. This question, fundamentally, has no connection to Jesus' statement here in John 14, because that's not really the point of what Jesus is saying in John 14. But it can, perhaps, help us in another way: If we look elsewhere in the New Testament we find that, there is "no other name by which anyone can be saved" and so we know that salvation can be found no where else except in Christ.

One might be tempted to, at this point, say, "Aha! Anyone who isn't a Christian won't be saved!" but that's not what was said, what is said is that salvation is found only in Christ. Another way of approaching this would be to say, anyone who is saved is saved only on account of Christ because in Christ alone is salvation; if at the conclusion of all things we find those who never confessed Christ in this life present in the future life then it is only on account of Christ. Because Scripture tells us where salvation is found, and therefore we can hope and trust in the One who is our salvation; but we can't say who isn't saved. Such knowledge is not revealed to us.

So, then, what about those who never heard Christ? The only answer we can give is we don't know. I know, you said you have asked this before and you got that answer and you weren't satisfied by it. But that's the truth, we don't know and we can't know. No Christian has the knowledge nor the authority to speak on things which we simply have no answer to, and so we can only trust that God is, indeed, a truly kind and gracious God.

Me? I come on the side of hope. It is my sincere and deeply held hope and prayer that all be saved. But I can't speak authoritatively one way or the other--I can only hope, trust, and pray.

Other Christian views will vary.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Just_a_Joe]

Process of elimination.

You and I know God's Holy standards and His plan of redemption. We certainly have no excuse.

A family in Bangladesh perishing in a mudslide circa 40AD not having the benefit of someone bringing them the Gospel before their demise?

First point, the above example is a fabrication in that I don't know if Bangladesh received the Gospel at that point in time.

Which leads me to the second point...The Gospel and God reaching people in remote areas is not dependent on mankind but God. Too many examples to list from the Bible on how God reached out to those that seek Him. Look up Haman. The Ethiopian eunuch so many more.

Based on the above, we see that it is God who moves, acts and does so by His Will. Case in point:

John 3: King James Version (KJV)
3 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.(KJV)

One of the clear messages which we observe in Christ's ministry is his engagement with people concerned about other's standing with God or righteousness. He rebuked the Pharisees with the following parable.

Luke 18: King James Version (KJV)

9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. (KJV)

The good news (or bad) is you and I know the laws of God. Which means we know what sin is. We also know the consequences of our unrepentant sin. There are no hypotheticals with us and everyone reading this. We also know the Gospel message of God's Grace for sinners. We both have no excuse. There are no manmade or man thought up loop holes. We are 100% accountable. We are not a Mongolian sheep herder from 33AD.

Thank you. I understand your points. Talking about people who haven't heard. We know they exist for sure, and their number is great. You are basically saying you don't know. You just trust that it's up to God to tell them the proper gospel or otherwise make sure they know what they need to know.

 

[Just_a_Joe]

I think it's helpful that we understand Jesus' statement in its overall context, especially in the overall context of John's Gospel.

To do that I think we should take a step back and look at how the author begins, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God, this one was in the beginning with God." A few verses later we read, "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us", and also, "No one has at any time seen God, but God the only begotten, has made Him known". This gives us the theme and basis thesis for John's Gospel: Jesus Christ is the very Word of God made flesh who makes the Father known. We can see this theme time and again throughout the text as Jesus is spoken of as the One whom God has sent, as speaking only what the Father has given Him to say, and famously, "If you have seen Me you have seen the Father". Because this is John's point, Jesus makes God known; Jesus uniquely makes God known. Jesus is the only one who can truly make the Father known to us because He, uniquely, is the very Word who was in the beginning with God and is God.

Let's notice a few things also which are not found in the text you presented: Jesus at no point says, "Believing certain things about Me is the only way to be saved."

Instead, here is the immediate context of Jesus' words,

"Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you know me, you will know my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”

Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own; but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me;"

Jesus as the way to the Father is explicitly in connection with Jesus as the One who makes the Father known.

The point here isn't believing the right things to go to heaven, of having the right knowledge to make it to the hereafter; it's about Jesus as the One who makes the Father known and that in Christ God reveals Himself and that God is known to us through His Son.

So we can then turn to your question about the fate of those who never heard about Jesus. This question, fundamentally, has no connection to Jesus' statement here in John 14, because that's not really the point of what Jesus is saying in John 14. But it can, perhaps, help us in another way: If we look elsewhere in the New Testament we find that, there is "no other name by which anyone can be saved" and so we know that salvation can be found no where else except in Christ.

One might be tempted to, at this point, say, "Aha! Anyone who isn't a Christian won't be saved!" but that's not what was said, what is said is that salvation is found only in Christ. Another way of approaching this would be to say, anyone who is saved is saved only on account of Christ because in Christ alone is salvation; if at the conclusion of all things we find those who never confessed Christ in this life present in the future life then it is only on account of Christ. Because Scripture tells us where salvation is found, and therefore we can hope and trust in the One who is our salvation; but we can't say who isn't saved. Such knowledge is not revealed to us.

So, then, what about those who never heard Christ? The only answer we can give is we don't know. I know, you said you have asked this before and you got that answer and you weren't satisfied by it. But that's the truth, we don't know and we can't know. No Christian has the knowledge nor the authority to speak on things which we simply have no answer to, and so we can only trust that God is, indeed, a truly kind and gracious God.

Me? I come on the side of hope. It is my sincere and deeply held hope and prayer that all be saved. But I can't speak authoritatively one way or the other--I can only hope, trust, and pray.

Other Christian views will vary.

-CryptoLutheran

Thank you. Hmmm... Pretty vague.

Thank you for the detailed context-based analysis of John 14. You are an honest thinking person.

I fully understand your logic in regards to salvation. But it does not align with the traditional interpretation that I hear in many different churches and denominations. I visited many in many countries on five continents. You say that any salvation is through Christ only, but we don't know who is saved and who is not... Interesting! However, John 14:6 and Acts 4:12 are always used to prove exclusivity of faith in Jesus Christ as the method of salvation. So, I am confused now. Does that mean, if we agree with your view, 99.99% of any kind of churches simply don't know what they're talking about?

 

[redleghunter]

Thank you. I understand your points. Talking about people who haven't heard. We know they exist for sure, and their number is great. You are basically saying you don't know. You just trust that it's up to God to tell them the proper gospel or otherwise make sure they know what they need to know.

About you and I - are you implying that we have to obey the law? Not believe and be saved by grace?

The numbers are great now or in the past? Evangelism is now worldwide.

I think you glossed over the point I made above. Salvation belongs to God. We cannot work for our salvation. See John 3 passage I quoted.

When you say I don't know, perhaps it should be evident neither you nor I are God. Where the "wind bloweth" is a miracle. It is not limited to humans bringing His message to outer Mongolia. God is sovereign in moving and directing His Will. The evidence is right there for examination from Genesis 1 through Revelation 22.

You would do well to dispense of doctrines of men to describe the work God works in and towards us, and examine the source material from "In the beginning God" to "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen" in Revelation.

My point? We must examine what God DID reveal in order to gain what can be understood.

It is futile to speculate what we think God is thinking. Genesis 3 makes that quite clear.

 

[Just_a_Joe]

The numbers are great now or in the past? Evangelism is now worldwide.

It doesn't matter. It's a reality, that's what I'm saying. In the past and today as well. Evangelism worldwide overall doesn't mean it reaches every single person.

I think you glossed over the point I made above. Salvation belongs to God. We cannot work for our salvation. See John 3 passage I quoted.

Yes, I re-read your post and realized that. That's why I removed the question about obeying the law, but you responded quicker.

When you say I don't know, perhaps it should be evident neither you nor I are God. Where the "wind bloweth" is a miracle. It is not limited to humans bringing His message to outer Mongolia. God is sovereign in moving and directing His Will. The evidence is right there for examination from Genesis 1 through Revelation 22.

You would do well to dispense of doctrines of men to describe the work God works in and towards us, and examine the source material from "In the beginning God" to "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen" in Revelation.

My point? We must examine what God DID reveal in order to gain what can be understood.

It is futile to speculate what we think God is thinking. Genesis 3 makes that quite clear.

I understand. I've been reading and studying the Bible for many years. It's not a very clear book, not consistent and not without contradictions. There are also almost as many interpretations of it as there are believers.

I've been to Mongolia. Nice country, nice people. Buddhism is regaining a strong ground there. I attended a church in Ulaanbaatar and made some good friends there, BTW including a young American family. Well, there are still corners of the country not covered by any missionary, foreign or local. There are people there.

 

[Serving Zion]

Interesting. Sounds pretty vague. So, Jesus will judge all people according to their thoughts and deeds, and will take into account all the circumstances? At that time He will also save some non-Christians - not of His flock? Or does "His flock" imply the Jews?

You do need to read the whole passage for context, and also be careful that you aren't reading it with bias.

Jesus is addressing His disciples as His crucifixion becomes imminent. So most of the meaning in that statement was to encourage them as Judaism was taking on a form of opposition to Jesus, and attempting to reject Him from The Kingdom of God. But because Jesus has been faithful and loyal to YHWH without sin, in fact YHWH supports Him, so every knee will bow and every tongue confess, that Jesus is Lord.

As for those who have never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ, or perhaps have only heard an insufficient rendition of it, then they most likely have not actually rejected Him.

 

[graceandpeace]

Hi. I've been asking this question in different threads at this forum, so far two answers received are "I don't know" or "we're not supposed to know".

Jesus in John 14:6 says He is the only way to the Father.

The people who have never heard about Jesus or never heard a proper gospel about Jesus - are they all going to hell? They have no faith in Jesus.

Hi,

First, I must disclose that I don't believe in "eternal torment" that many call hell. It seems from the Gospels that Jesus did believe in a possible exclusion from the Kingdom of God - but what that looks like, or how long it would last, is the subject of Christian debate. Liberal Christians like me generally reject the idea of "eternal torment," & beliefs from there vary.

So, regarding the referenced passage in John, I don't see any reason to think Jesus is saying only Christians will be with God. I don't think the passage is about salvation at all. Instead, I think he is quite plainly stating that anyone who wishes to come to God will find that He will be there along the way - indeed, he will be the way. Jesus is the one who reveals God to us. This is not the same as saying only people who believe certain things or have a certain religion and such are going to be part of God's Kingdom, though some Christian groups do believe that way.

We can't say for certain who will be in God's Kingdom. We just can't know this. But as Christians, we can hope.

 

[Albion]

Thank you. I understand your points. Talking about people who haven't heard. We know they exist for sure, and their number is great. You are basically saying you don't know. You just trust that it's up to God to tell them the proper gospel or otherwise make sure they know what they need to know.

Why does this bother you so? And why would it determine whether or not you became a disciple of Christ yourself?

 

[miknik5]

Hi. I've been asking this question in different threads at this forum, so far two answers received are "I don't know" or "we're not supposed to know".

Jesus in John 14:6 says He is the only way to the Father.

The people who have never heard about Jesus or never heard a proper gospel about Jesus - are they all going to hell? They have no faith in Jesus.

The GOSPEL will be preached to the ends of the earth. Then the end will come

There will be not one who has not heard the GOSPEL

Matthew 24:14