Only way?

[Just_a_Joe]

CCC 847: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. (Catechism of the Catholic Church)

OK! So, in effect, Jesus Christ isn't the only way - for those not knowing about Him. What about Muslims, for example, who do regard Jesus highly but consider Him to be a great prophet only?

 

[Just_a_Joe]

And, personally, I don't believe that God, who is love, will condemn someone for not knowing him when they never had that chance.

On what basis will this category of people be judged in regards to their eternal fate?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yes, but according to God there are no excuses. Because a person can seek God, and if they seek Him with all their heart, I believe He will let them hear the gospel before they die, even if He has to give them a vision or a dream and preach to them Himself.

TRUTH. SIMPLE.

 

[Just_a_Joe]

the simply answer is yes. we are in a grace period started when Jesus ministered first to the Jews and continued by the Apostles like Paul etc.

God is the same yesterday, today and will be tomorrow. He is also more interested in the hearts of men rather than their outward actions. Eg. 'did you kill because to defend' or did you kill (murder) because you wanted to covet'.

Jesus is God's embodiment of righteousness which includes truth. Because without truth you cannot have Godly wisdom, knowledge or understanding. Jesus came not to start a new kind of truth but to continue and clarify truth starting from the garden. Man has been made to be confused by satanic principles and powers to kill, steal and destroy.

Jesus is the only way, because He is Truth, not an interpretation on the Truth. Jesus said, 'you see, hear, watch me is the same as if God Himself was doing, talking, acting, because Jesus did not come for himself but to reveal God Himself.

God wants Truth to be the foundation to receive Salvation and all its benefits.

You say yes - meaning, going to hell?

 

[Just_a_Joe]

Abraham never heard about Jesus and he's not going to hell.

I'm not even opening that can of worms , excuse me my expression of speech...

Pre-Jesus is simply just absolutely unanswerable in any logical way. Or it might be the same situation with post-Jesus, but for the whole world instead of a part of it.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Abraham never heard about Jesus and he's not going to hell.

Abraham was told by YHWH of what he needed to know of Y'SHUA MESSIAH - of the plan of salvation - living by faith in YHWH and relying on YHWH TO PROVIDE THE SACRIFICE NEEDED (remember)...
remember Abraham is called the FATHER OF FAITH .... for all the faithful TODAY as well.

 

[Daryl Gleason]

If I may, Just_a_Joe, I would like to offer the following for your consideration.

Others have already mentioned specific verses in Romans and Revelation that I was going to bring up, so I'll not repeat them here. However, there are some critical passages regarding your question that I haven't seen posted yet, specifically in Ephesians.

I don't know how you feel about predestination vs. free will (I do have some thoughts on that topic), but I've seen quite a number of examples of predestination and the exercising of God's will throughout Scripture, notably in Exodus (the hardening of Pharaoh's heart), Judges (Samson's conflict with the Philistines), 2 Chronicles (multiple times in the records of the kings), Proverbs, and Ecclesiastes, and of course, the betrayal of Jesus by Judas Iscariot, to name just a few.

In Ephesians, however, we see that God foreknew his chosen ones -- even before the foundation of the world -- and also predestined them to be his sons through Jesus Christ (Ephesians 1:3-6). Additionally, we may see from Ephesians 2:8-9 that salvation is entirely an act of grace on God's part and does not depend on man at all.

So, it is not a matter of a man's (or woman's) having to choose Jesus to be saved, as if this depended on the man's action. Rather, it is a matter of the man's being chosen by God, who brings him to himself through Jesus.

As to how God makes the decision on whom to choose, we have Exodus 33:19, elaborated on in Romans 9:14-18.

And as to how and when this happens, it will be different for each chosen person, but we can trust that God has this firmly in hand, as he has everything else.

Further, we know that Jesus will lose none of those given to him (John 6:39) and that nothing can separate them from God (Romans 8:38-39).

Submitted for your consideration.

Daryl

PS: If you'd like to understand more about Abraham from a New Testament perspective, this is explored in some depth throughout Hebrews, notably chapters 6, 7, and 11.

 

[Just_a_Joe]

Since every single heart on this planet is known to God, and He has said that anyone who seeks Him with all their heart shall find Him, I would say that if most of the people on this planet perish because they did not seek Him then I would consider that self inflicted, because Jesus is God, whoever seeks God, finds Jesus, also the fact that God can send a follower to any person on the planet at any time, which He has done from the beginning, and is still doing. God knows everything and everyone from the beginning to the end. So the main question does not really have bearing because God is actively involved in the lives of every single person on this planet every moment of every day drawing them to the truth, either you are actively resisting it, or actively responding to it, there is no neutral position.

OK. I understand. So - who wants to be saved, will be saved through Jesus no matter what. I've had the same belief explained to me earlier, and my answer to that was:

It sounds good and fair, but I think all facts point to that it doesn't work that way. Or we would have to make some strange assumptions - for example, that hundreds of millions of people residing in North/South America, or Australia, etc, never ever sought the truth except after the arrival of Europeans to the continents. And other strange things.

 

[Radrook]

My GOD will NOT do that sir

That is where the confusion arises


HE will simply "no longer hold back what HE has even from HIS everyday grace upon all HIS CREATION held back

2 Thesselonians 2

When HE who holds back all things is taken out of the way then will evil have its full reign

That scripture is taken out of context. It was referring to the approaching apostasy and cannot be applied to the ECT idea.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 - Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2 Timothy 4:3 - For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

1 Timothy 4:1-3 - Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;


Also, the premise of innocence based on indifference is flawed.
If a child is getting abused and I am able to stop it but choose not too, I am as guilty as the person committing the act.

Omission Law & Legal Definition


Omission is a failure to carry out or perform an act. Omission is a neglect of duty. Law imposes a duty on every person to take adequate action to prevent a foreseeable injury. In Criminal law, omissions may give rise to lawsuits and will constitute a guilty act if a person breaches his duty. If a person fails to act knowingly that his/her failure would cause a harm or injury to other person(s), then such a failure constitutes an omission.

http://definitions.uslegal.com/o/omission/

 

[redleghunter]

Elaborate?

Suffice it to say that "the wind does go where it listeth" and "this anointing is reall"


It's the very reason why no man will be able to convince us otherwise

We know what we learned of and from whom we learned it


...and it wasn't from a man


(Reference John 3 and 1 John 2)

Amen.

Now we go tell it on a mountain....

 

[daughterofthemosthigh7]

I was talking about it figuratively. I mean - if there is smth taught as the truth, but then there's a category of people that this particular truth doesn't seem to apply to or work for. Then, what's the catch of such truth? Is it really the truth, then??? That's what I implied by "the catch"

You are complicating something that's really quite basic and simple-- doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out and i of all ppl should know...
anyway, have you ever thought about asking Him personally or tried talking to Him before? I know if you did that I'm 100% sure He would reveal Himself to you but it takes that first leap of faith into the unknown to find out so it can be made known and He will make it known-- He has with me and every single other follower of Christ that I know too

MATTHEW 7:7-8 KJV
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Blessings & take care

 

[Luke17:37]

OK, I understand. Well, it sounds quite nice what you say. But it's just not realistic. According to this belief, nobody's searching today in most of the world and throughout history. If this is how it works, then If you're born in a non-Christian land as opposed to a traditionally Christian land today, or if you were born when Christianity wasn't spread worldwide, then you had so much lower chances of getting saved. Is God racist, so to speak? Giving some people a huge head start and giving others nothing or next to nothing? Hmmm... It's a cruel way to believe.

I can just picture a person in pre-contact North America, or Australia, or Greenland, or a SEA island - sincerely searching and then hopping on a boat off to good old Byzantium or a medieval European Christian kingdom for a message about Christ? Would they be killed first as a savage before told about Jesus?

I don't want to watch those videos, they're too long. I started watching one, but after a couple of minutes I got very bored. Could you tell me the gist of them? Jesus Christ came to all of them in a dream and told the Gospel?

They... along with probably thousands of other Muslims, had visions or dreams of Jesus. In Mohammed's dreams, Jesus spoke words of love for Mohammed and also quoted Scripture, including John 14:6 ("I am the Way and the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father except through Me"). At the end of Mohammed's dreams, he knew it was more than a dream and he knew it was Jesus, who the Christians worshiped. He searched and found a Christian in a nearby village, who introduced him to a pastor. The pastor shared the gospel with him and he prayed to receive Christ. The loving relationship he had enjoyed with his dad turned toxic overnight when his dad discovered that he decided to follow Jesus. The angry father tried to have Mohammed killed, but God protected his life... It's not boring at all.

If Jesus does this for Muslims today (this is a significant way the Lord reaches Muslims), I'm not going to think it impossible or unlikely for Him to do something similar for others in other times and remote places.

I'm afraid you are just making excuses, sir. Jesus says, “Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it. How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life, and few find it." (Matthew 7:13-14). Just because most reject Him doesn't mean that God is unfair. God didn't offer a plan of salvation for Satan and the other angels who rebelled with him. He wasn't obligated to do anything for Adam's race either. We could all be headed for condemnation in the eternal Lake of Fire with no possible remedy. That's what we deserve. But because of God's love and desire to show mercy to those who would repent from their rebellion and believe in Him by faith, the Creator of the universe promised to send a Messiah. Then He humbled Himself to be wrapped in flesh and born as an infant in a poor family. He spent about 33 years in a human body being rejected and mistreated by many (see Isaiah 53), until He resolutely went to Jerusalem, knowing they would arrest, beat, flog and crucify Him. He could have walked away, but He endured the cross because it was the only way to redeem us so that He could be with us--for our sins separate us from God. Isaiah 59 talks about this, how His own arm provided salvation for us. Why should He unjustly appropriate righteousness to those who harbor rebellion in their hearts and regard His blood sacrifice as a little thing?

He also reveals Himself sometimes to people who were not seeking Him. It's a mystery why, but God is so good.

You've heard the gospel. Don't reject Jesus just because the majority reject Him. The Lake of Fire will be no party, regardless of how many friends of yours go there.

 

[miknik5]

Amen.

Now we go tell it on a mountain....

That's exactly right

 

[Just_a_Joe]

They... along with probably thousands of other Muslims, had visions or dreams of Jesus. In Mohammed's dreams, Jesus spoke words of love for Mohammed and also quoted Scripture, including John 14:6 ("I am the Way and the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father except through Me"). At the end of Mohammed's dreams, he knew it was more than a dream and he knew it was Jesus, who the Christians worshiped. He searched and found a Christian in a nearby village, who introduced him to a pastor. The pastor shared the gospel with him and he prayed to receive Christ. The loving relationship he had enjoyed with his dad turned toxic overnight when his dad discovered that he decided to follow Jesus. The angry father tried to have Mohammed killed, but God protected his life... It's not boring at all.

If Jesus does this for Muslims today (this is a significant way the Lord reaches Muslims), I'm not going to think it impossible or unlikely for Him to do something similar for others in other times and remote places.

I'm afraid you are just making excuses, sir. Jesus says, “Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it. How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life, and few find it." (Matthew 7:13-14). Just because most reject Him doesn't mean that God is unfair. God didn't offer a plan of salvation for Satan and the other angels who rebelled with him. He wasn't obligated to do anything for Adam's race either. We could all be headed for condemnation in the eternal Lake of Fire with no possible remedy. That's what we deserve. But because of God's love and desire to show mercy to those who would repent from their rebellion and believe in Him by faith, the Creator of the universe promised to send a Messiah. Then He humbled Himself to be wrapped in flesh and born as an infant in a poor family. He spent about 33 years in a human body being rejected and mistreated by many (see Isaiah 53), until He resolutely went to Jerusalem, knowing they would arrest, beat, flog and crucify Him. He could have walked away, but He endured the cross because it was the only way to redeem us so that He could be with us--for our sins separate us from God. Isaiah 59 talks about this, how His own arm provided salvation for us. Why should He unjustly appropriate righteousness to those who harbor rebellion in their hearts and regard His blood sacrifice as a little thing?

He also reveals Himself sometimes to people who were not seeking Him. It's a mystery why, but God is so good.

You've heard the gospel. Don't reject Jesus just because the majority reject Him. The Lake of Fire will be no party, regardless of how many friends of yours go there.

Now you say I'm making up excuses just for the sake of saying anything against your beliefs. I'm not a kid who makes a fuss just because they didn't get something...

I'm talking honestly.

Muslims do know about Jesus. Especially who have Christians in close proximity. I'm sure Muhammed heard quite a bit of the Christian message this way or another prior to his dream, that's why he dreamed. I don't find such instances as proof of God working a miracle. Dreams are generated by the brain usung the information in memory, including the subconscious. There's enough Christians dreaming about Muhammed and accepting that faith too...

When Europeans arrived to South America or to North America or to some parts of Asia or to Australia etc they haven't found a Christian church there. Moreover, the history of conversions has been largely an ugly one.

 

[Hallstone]

OK. I understand. So - who wants to be saved, will be saved through Jesus no matter what. I've had the same belief explained to me earlier, and my answer to that was:

It sounds good and fair, but I think all facts point to that it doesn't work that way. Or we would have to make some strange assumptions - for example, that hundreds of millions of people residing in North/South America, or Australia, etc, never ever sought the truth except after the arrival of the Europeans to the continents. And other strange things.

What we have to remember is that Jesus knows each heart, and like he said 'He would not lose one that is given in to His hand, so its not like He is bound by some physical property was causes Him to miss the boat, He knows the ones that are His no matter where they are, just because they live in some remote country doesn't mean that He cannot reach them, God is the one that causes the growth, others plant and water, but God causes growth, so I would say if it is someone's destiny to be with God, then He will do it. If someone obeys the principles of God in their heart then Jesus will come to them and reveal Himself to them.

 

[Just_a_Joe]

What we have to remember is that Jesus knows each heart, and like he said 'He would not lose one that is given in to His hand, so its not like He is bound by some physical property was causes Him to miss the boat, He knows the ones that are His no matter where they are, just because they live in some remote country doesn't mean that He cannot reach them, God is the one that causes the growth, others plant and water, but God causes growth, so I would say if it is someone's destiny to be with God, then He will do it. If someone obeys the principles of God in their heart then Jesus will come to them and reveal Himself to them.

I understand. Facts don't support this belief. It would have been great if the world really operated like that. But it doesn't.

 

[JacksBratt]

We know for a fact that there have been people who haven't heard. Didn't hear the gospel in a conventional way, at least. Not through the modes of communication that are physical.

Did you read post #139? I gave a rundown on what is going to happen.

Every human will face judgement. Those who have accepted Christ as their savior as a result of hearing about Him and the gospel will be pardoned and given salvation as per the fact that they Believed.

Those that never heard will be judged by their creator based on the attitude of their heart, what they experienced in their life, how they responded, their intelligence level and the many wondrous things of this universe that are proof of God. God will judge based on what they saw, the proof they witnessed and how they handled it.

All humans have the knowledge of right and wrong programmed on their heart, even as young children. God knows your heart. He will judge you on that. As the verse says:

Romans 1:20King James Version (KJV)

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

We will all be given enough for God to judge you as to whether you are given eternal life or not.

 

[ScottA]

OK - thank you for explaining further, now I understand. So what is the fate of those who were born of the flesh? Do you believe in literal hell as the place of damnation for eternity? That the souls (minds, personalities) of those spiritually dead people will remain alive or in some form of existence and will endure suffering/torment forever?

Yes, in a manner of speaking. That is...just as we endure time, which is not, we also endure eternity, which is. But only the rebellion, the followers of Satan, shall burn.

 

[Neogaia777]

Hi. I've been asking this question in different threads at this forum, so far two answers received are "I don't know" or "we're not supposed to know".

Jesus in John 14:6 says He is the only way to the Father.

The people who have never heard about Jesus or never heard a proper gospel about Jesus - are they all going to hell? They have no faith in Jesus.

There may be many ways to Jesus, but only one way to the Father, through him... Is is impossible to get to the real, true Father God, only a false one, except through him alone... You cannot know the real, true Father without first knowing Jesus... For he who sees (knows) Jesus only when you or they, fully comprehend, and know, that is, to "see" Jesus, will you, or the only way to see and know the true Father God is by knowing him... There is no other way...

God is Godly Love, the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are God, and they are Godly Love, those who know Godly Love, Know God, know them, ONLY by and through Christ can you or they know this, there is no other way... If people say there are many ways to God, it is right that there may be many ways to God, but only because Christ is God, they can never find and will never know God if they do not know him... There may be many ways to discover Godly Love, but in the end Godly Love, which is God, is Christ...

Those who suffered greatly with, for, or because of Christ, because of believing in Christ, and were faithful and true and good regardless, will take part in the first resurrection and be part of the thousand year reign or age of Christ, which will be Paradise, not Heaven yet, but Paradise, like in the Garden of Eden, or the 3rd heaven... When that is over, the rest, "all" of them, "all" the rest of the dead, regardless of their beliefs, will take part in the second resurrection and be judged according to their deeds, which those of the first resurrection are not judged by, because they were and had been already...

Anyways, the dead, "all" of them will be resurrected, and judged according to their deeds, and their life will be weighed on his balance scales of justice, and whomever is judged worthy of eternal life, will get eternal life, those deserving of eternal death, eternal death... Those who's names were written in the Book of Life, will be those who make it during the second resurrection... And those ones will, at that time, join those who lived the earthly thousand year reign of Christ, and those two groups will, at that time, go to be in Heaven... Leaving the earthly paradise behind, because a new heaven and a new earth are made at that time, and the old ones are done away with, and perhaps their will be some new humans to inhabit a new Garden of Eden, when, after the first resurrection, the second one comes, and both those who were a part of the first, and those who made it in the second, will go to the heavenly realm and be spirits...

God Bless!

 

[Just_a_Joe]

Not at all, in fact I would say that the majority of Christians would say more-or-less the same as I have, if using different words. What I've said would basically jive with both Catholic and Orthodox teaching, and those two churches alone comprise nearly about 2/3 of all Christians on the planet. It would also be in keeping with what, arguably, most Mainline Protestant denominations would say.

See the Catholic teaching on Invincible Ignorance, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invincible_ignorance_(Catholic_theology)

-CryptoLutheran

What you're trying to convince me in is not what I've been hearing in all churches I went to. They said, faith in Jesus or hell/separation from God/annihilation. No third option. Now you're making it sound as if there is a third option. Or am I understanding you incorrectly all along?

Never heard about Invincible Ignorance before. Interesting! Doesn't this term from moral theology pertain more to individual sins of a believer rather than ignorance about salvation in Jesus Christ?
https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=1203