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Phantasman

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Are you talking about annihilationism?

I don't really study such things. They are not Gospel message, and many "want" to believe different ideas. The Gospel is good news. Hell, Hades, Gehenna, etc. doesn't deserve seeking.

I do believe that there is light and darkness. If Jesus is the light, and the Father a greatest light, then the condemned make their way to darkness. Furthest from the Father. Which is why Jesus used the term "outer darkness". Lake of Fire? That's physical. I believe we attain spiritual, whether it's with God or away from God.
 
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ClementofA

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What happens to soul that does not love God when he/she dies? Does God drag that soul kicking screaming to Heaven where has to stay with Him for eternity? If so, is that a loving God?

What happens? Maybe something like this:

1 Cor.5:4 When you are gathered in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, along with the power of the Lord Jesus, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved.…

It is your view that forces the saved to stay in heaven for all eternity, with no free will to choose otherwise, like robots.

Douay-Rheims Bible
If I ascend into heaven, thou art there: if I descend into hell, thou art present. (Psalm 139:8)

31For the Lord will not cast off for ever;

32but if he have caused grief, he will have compassion according to the multitude of his loving-kindnesses:

33for he doth not willingly afflict or grieve the children of men. (Lamentations 3)

-----------------------------

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."

"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
 
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JesusLovesOurLady

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Avoidance of temporary hells, if one needs such negative motivations (fire insurance) to serve God. Paul said it was the love of Christ that constrained, i.e. forced, him. Church Father Origen, for example, spoke of the possibility of people suffering torments for many ages. Assuming they continually resisted God's never failing love in ever leaving the door open to their salvation. BTW the gates into the New Jerusalum are never shut. See the book of Revelation where God says "I am making all [not some] new".
Okay, so you believe in many temporal hells, I need to do a bit more research before I can address this error. For now, I will address your other arguments. Oh and by the way, Origen was not a Church Father.

Since God's love never fails, there is no such thing as making "the wrong decision, one time, too many". Because of His love, God never gives up on anyone. However in your philosophy God's love has an expiry date like that on a milk carton. In your philosophy He is either too weak or too unloving to save all. If God does not save all, is it because He is lacking in omnipotence or lacking in compassion?
In your fallible and false position, yes. I am guilty as charged of making God "too weak... to save all." As I, at the very least implied in my opening post, the universalist position makes God out to be a god of power, but God's greatest attributes are Truth and Love, not power. In fact let me take it to the extreme, if you had a problem with Catholics honouring Mary, wait until you read this quote from Fr. Fredrick W. Faber:

"But what is the special purpose for which the messenger has come? To ask in the name of God for Mary's consent to the Incarnation. The Creator will not act in this great mystery without his creature's free consent. Her freedom shall be a glorious reflection of his own ineffable freedom in the act of creation.
The Omnipotent stands on ceremony with his feeble, finite creature. He has already raised her too high to be only instrument. Moreover, the honor of his own assumption of a created nature has an interest in the liberty in which creation will grant him what he requires. He would not come claiming his rights or using his prerogatives.
It was an awful moment. It was fully in Mary's power to have refused. Impossible as the consequences seem to make it, the matter was with her, and never did a free creature exercise its freedom more freely than she did that night."
God places the fate of our race in the hands of Mary, and give her total freedom to say "yes" or "no." That, is how much God respects our freedom and won't force us to choose Him.

Douay-Rheims Bible
If I ascend into heaven, thou art there: if I descend into hell, thou art present. (Psalm 139:8)
This refers to the fact that the souls in hell are still dependent on God for there existence. God's Holy Name YHWH, literally translates to HE WHO IS BEING, (Y=He HWH=Being) this means that all of creation is dependent on God for it's very existence, including the damned. God is present in hell, because hell is part of creation, in fact that's one greatest torments of hell, the damned cannot escape Him who the hate, try as they might to flee from Him.

31For the Lord will not cast off for ever;

32but if he have caused grief, he will have compassion according to the multitude of his loving-kindnesses:

33for he doth not willingly afflict or grieve the children of men. (Lamentations 3)
I know you will disagree with me on this, because this gets into Sola Scriptura territory but, this does not refer to hell, it refers to earthly chastisements God causes in order to bring people back from their path damnation.

In regards to verse 33, the torments of hell, are indirectly caused by God allowing the damned to seek a place far from Him and His Love.

What about the third of the angels of heaven who rebelled with Lucifer?

So those in heaven are basically robots, then, eh? God forces them to stay there forever. Maybe He should do that for everyone instead of sadistically torturing billions for all the endless eons of eternity.
The angels were not in Heaven in the beginning, they were in a testing place where God tested their loyalty. Lucifer and a third of the angels rebelled and failed the test and fell into hell.

Those in Heaven are not "robots" au contraire, they are actually more human than you or I, they have fulfilled their destiny. As I mentioned before, the purpose of our existence is union with God, if we fulfill that purpose, we do not need free will anymore. God does not "force" the people in Heaven to stay there, the people in Heaven are completely consumed with God, and have given themselves over to Him completely.

And yet there are a great many Roman Catholics who are universalists or hope for the same. As to doctrine, that is a matter of opinion & controversy within the RCC itself:

From "Good Goats: Healing Our Image of God", p.66 via the Paulist Press, 1994:

"The Church, which invokes its infallibility in the canonization of the saints, has never done so with regard to the damned. We cannot know with certainty if even one human soul does in fact go to hell" (quoting Karl Rahner).

Good Goats: Healing Our Image of God: Dennis Linn: 9780809134632: Books - Amazon.ca

"Karl Rahner, S.J. (5 March 1904 – 30 March 1984), was a German Jesuit priest and theologian who, alongside Henri de Lubac, Hans Urs von Balthasar, and Yves Congar, is considered one of the most influential Catholic theologians of the 20th century."
Catholics who believe in universalism, reject their own Faith, a lie is a lie even everybody believes it, and truth is truth even if no one believes it.

Karl Rahner was a heretic, he followed the heresy of Modernism, which is quite frankly one of the most evil heresies to ever blight the face this planet! (see here for more information: Modernist Heresiology Thread) Karl Rahner's claim that the Church has never "canonized" the damned is erroneous because, while it's true that the Church doesn't have an official list of damned souls, the Infallible Authority of both Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture state that Judas Iscariot was damned.

Hans Urs von Balthasar's attempts to explain away hell led to a host of heresies, including a form of neo-nestorianism and the anti-trinitarian claim that Jesus separated Himself from the Trinity and entered into the hell of the damned in order to sort of out-damn the the damned and get force them into Heaven.

Finally, this still doesn't change the fact that the Pope Francis or any other Successor of Saint Peter has the God-given authority to contradict God's own Revelation.
 
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JesusLovesOurLady

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I don't really study such things. They are not Gospel message, and many "want" to believe different ideas. The Gospel is good news. Hell, Hades, Gehenna, etc. doesn't deserve seeking.

I do believe that there is light and darkness. If Jesus is the light, and the Father a greatest light, then the condemned make their way to darkness. Furthest from the Father. Which is why Jesus used the term "outer darkness". Lake of Fire? That's physical. I believe we attain spiritual, whether it's with God or away from God.
Okay, I'm still concerned with your view on this, taking this will effect your relationship with God. However, I will et you be for now, and focus more on defending my position.

Peace be with you.
 
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ClementofA

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In your fallible and false position, yes. I am guilty as charged of making God "too weak... to save all."

Even more so your position makes God lacking in love, as my post stated:

Since God's love never fails, there is no such thing as making "the wrong decision, one time, too many". Because of His love, God never gives up on anyone. However in your philosophy God's love has an expiry date like that on a milk carton. In your philosophy He is either too weak or too unloving to save all. If God does not save all, is it because He is lacking in omnipotence or lacking in compassion? As long as He is still reaching out to those in any hell, it is mathematically impossible they would reject Him an infinite number of times, i.e. forever.


 
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ClementofA

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Those in Heaven are not "robots" au contraire, they are actually more human than you or I, they have fulfilled their destiny. As I mentioned before, the purpose of our existence is union with God, if we fulfill that purpose, we do not need free will anymore. God does not "force" the people in Heaven to stay there, the people in Heaven are completely consumed with God, and have given themselves over to Him completely.


It certainly sounds like they are forced to stay there, since they have no free will anymore in your viewpoint. Therefore they are just like robots or animals with no free will.

Will God also take away the free will of those in hell & force them to stay there forever while He keeps them alive and the flames ever burning that will torture them for the endless ages of eternity? How is that a loving God? It isn't, but the God Who is willing & able to save all out of hell is truly loving.

The caricature of a god that you posit is what Satan can only dream of being.

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
 
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aiki

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God's greatest attributes are Truth and Love, not power.

Actually, I think God's greatest attribute is His holiness. God's temple, His throne, His angels, His Spirit, His name, His word, and many other things directly associated with God are described as holy. This is not the case for any of His other attributes. The cherubim before God's throne proclaim, "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty," not, "Love, love, love," or "Truth, truth, truth." When it comes to the matter of God's punishment of the wicked, it is His holiness and justness that is primarily on display, not His love or truth. The universalist mantra that "Love Wins" relies on a distortion of God's essential character that emphasizes His love over His holiness and justness.
 
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JesusLovesOurLady

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It certainly sounds like they are forced to stay there, since they have no free will anymore in your viewpoint. Therefore they are just like robots or animals with no free will.

Will God also take away the free will of those in hell & force them to stay there forever while He keeps them alive and the flames ever burning that will torture them for the endless ages of eternity? How is that a loving God? It isn't, but the God Who is willing & able to save all out of hell is truly loving.

The caricature of a god that you posit is what Satan can only dream of being.

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
Yes, the damned, do not have free will. The reason that words like "death" and "destruction" are used to refer to hell, is not because souls cease to exist in hell, but because the souls in hell are broken, they have failed to fulfill their purpose of union with God. The souls in hell have given themselves to this brokenness and thus, have lost their free will.

You seem to be misunderstanding my point that, the purpose of our existence is union with God. Free will is only a means to that end, once one achieves or resists that purpose to the breaking point, free will is of no more use. Likewise Faith and Hope also cease to be of use in eternity, since Faith and Hope are also a means to that end.

I will, address your other arguments later, right now I have intellectual fatigue and need sometime to pray and meditate and focus on other things. For now, I'd like you watch this video by the late great Mother Angelica (God rest her soul) that does a great job illustrating my point:
 
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ClementofA

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Actually, I think God's greatest attribute is His holiness. God's temple, His throne, His angels, His Spirit, His name, His word, and many other things directly associated with God are described as holy. This is not the case for any of His other attributes. The cherubim before God's throne proclaim, "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty," not, "Love, love, love," or "Truth, truth, truth." When it comes to the matter of God's punishment of the wicked, it is His holiness and justness that is primarily on display, not His love or truth. The universalist mantra that "Love Wins" relies on a distortion of God's essential character that emphasizes His love over His holiness and justness.

God's actual nature or essence is love. The epistle of 1 John says twice "God is love".

The entire law is summed up in two commandments re love.

The two greatest commadments speak of love, not holiness.

Love is even greater than faith (1 Cor.13:13)

Jesus said, love your enemies.

Mercy triumphs over judgement (Js. 2:13)

Grace superabounds over sin (Romans 5)

As for His "justness" or judgements, where is the fairness in endless torments for sins of a few years or decades? Scripture says:

"When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness." (Isa.26:9)

The Lord is acquainted with the rescue of the devout out of trial, yet is keeping the unjust for chastening in the day of judging. (2 Pet.2:9)

51 And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem, 52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. 53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. 54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? 55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. 56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. (Luke 9)

When it comes to the matter of God's punishment of the wicked, it is His holiness and justness that is primarily on display, not His love or truth.

Was that the case when David committed premeditated adultery & murder for which His "holiness and justness" required the death penalty?

The word used for "punishment" at Mt.25:46 is KOLASIS which was used of correction in ancient times. Surely this is consistent with both God's love and holiness, the goal being love, i.e. the salvation of the lost.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
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Phantasman

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Okay, I'm still concerned with your view on this, taking this will effect your relationship with God. However, I will et you be for now, and focus more on defending my position.

Peace be with you.

Some are brought to God by fear, others by love. I choose the latter. It's human nature that when man wants to control another, if he cannot make them agree to a point, fear is the tool that convinces the ignorant. Not only do I not fear death, I welcome it. So fear of a "burning hell" is not what the Gospel message teaches. Hell is only a question no man knows since the beginning.

A Christian see's through the heart:

Colossians:

2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

Matthew:
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

So teach about hell all you want. Excuse me ahead of time for not being a captive audience.

Peace be with you as well.
 
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JesusLovesOurLady

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God's actual nature or essence is love. The epistle of 1 John says twice "God is love".

The entire law is summed up in two commandments re love.

The two greatest commadments speak of love, not holiness.

Love is even greater than faith (1 Cor.13:13)

Jesus said, love your enemies.

Mercy triumphs over judgement (Js. 2:13)

Grace superabounds over sin (Romans 5)

As for His "justness" or judgements, where is the fairness in endless torments for sins of a few years or decades? Scripture says:

"When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness." (Isa.26:9)

The Lord is acquainted with the rescue of the devout out of trial, yet is keeping the unjust for chastening in the day of judging. (2 Pet.2:9)

51 And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem, 52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. 53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. 54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? 55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. 56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. (Luke 9)



Was that the case when David committed premeditated adultery & murder for which His "holiness and justness" required the death penalty?

The word used for "punishment" at Mt.25:46 is KOLASIS which was used of correction in ancient times. Surely this is consistent with both God's love and holiness.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
No, the most central aspect of God's nature is Truth first, love second. God's name is YHWH "HE WHO IS BEING" this points to Truth not love. The God is Truth first, Love second is because:

1. You can't love what you don't know, there can be no love without truth.

2. Love is an act of the will, if God is love before truth or without truth, than we have functionalistic view of God, where God is an entity that is defined by what He does, rather than who He is.
 
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ClementofA

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Yes, the damned, do not have free will. The reason that words like "death" and "destruction" are used to refer to hell, is not because souls cease to exist in hell, but because the souls in hell are broken, they have failed to fulfill their purpose of union with God. The souls in hell have given themselves to this brokenness and thus, have lost their free will.

You seem to be misunderstanding my point that, the purpose of our existence is union with God. Free will is only a means to that end, once one achieves or resists that purpose to the breaking point, free will is of no more use. Likewise Faith and Hope also cease to be of use in eternity, since Faith and Hope are also a means to that end.

Taking away the free will of those in hell is consistent with the unloving nature of the character of a god that you posit. But why would a loving God take away their free will?
If free will is needed for union with God, then God has essentially sent them to endless torments. Whereas, OTOH, the loving God of the universal salvation doctrine, would allow them to retain their free will & ultimately be saved. So which God is really loving, the one Who saves all through their own freewill choice, or the one who takes away that choice & therefore causes them to burn for all eternity, much like the Calvinist God?

Why would God take pleasure in burning for the endless eons of eternity those who have no freewill to choose another destiny, who are freewill-less robots?

If freewill is "only a means to that end", then why would God take away the only means for those in hell to achieve that end?

If the freewill of those in heaven was only a means to an end, then it seems God failed in creating freewill in the first place as something only temporary. Better to create all humans without freewill & bring all to that same end in heaven, rather than let even one suffer torments endlessly. Again the lack of love in such a god is evident.
 
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ClementofA

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No, the most central aspect of God's nature is Truth first, love second. God's name is YHWH "HE WHO IS BEING" this points to Truth not love. The God is Truth first, Love second is because:

1. You can't love what you don't know, there can be no love without truth.

2. Love is an act of the will, if God is love before truth or without truth, than we have functionalistic view of God, where God is an entity that is defined by what He does, rather than who He is.

I would think the phrase "he who is being" would refer to God's existence.

Re 1. of course love gives knowledge of truth. That knowledge of the truth is so one can come to the One Who is love & be saved. Being saved is to live in love by faith in Jesus Christ. That in no way makes truth superior to love. Truth is not the end goal, but love, being love & becoming love in the Lord. Scripture says knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. In 1 Cor.13 you can know all mysteries & have all knowledge, but without love one is nothing. Likewise if God tortured billions for all eternity, he would be nothing.

Re 2 God's nature is love & that causes Him to always act in love. His nature is consistent with His actions. OTOH if a man says i love God, but hates his brother, he is a liar & the truth is not in him.
 
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aiki

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God's actual nature or essence is love. The epistle of 1 John says twice "God is love".

And love unbounded by holiness, unconstrained and undirected by it, is the sort of corrupt thing we humans like to call love. God's love is the incredible thing it is and so unlike our own love because it is holy, totally without darkness in it. So, no, God's essence is not love. His essential nature is that of holy purity, of unsullied, perfect righteousness.

As I pointed out, we don't read in Scripture of God's loving temple, or His loving angels, or His loving word or throne. No, it is holiness that characterizes all of these things, God's holiness. It does not, then, argue well for your view to cite the only two places in all of Scripture where the statement "God is love" is made. God is called holy in Scripture a great multitude of times!

The entire law is summed up in two commandments re love.

And God commands us in His word:

"Be you holy as I am holy." (Lev. 11:44, 45; 19:2; 20:7; 1 Pe. 1:15, 16; 2 Pe. 3:11).

We are to worship God in the "beauty of holiness" (1 Ch. 16:29; Ps. 29:2). We are to live lives clearly characterized by holiness (Ro. 6:19; 2 Cor. 7:1; Eph. 4:24, etc) Really, there is no godly love, the sort of love commanded of us in Scripture, if that love is not in keeping with God's commands to us be holy as He is holy.

As for His "justness" or judgements, where is the fairness in endless torments for sins of a few years or decades?

Fairness and justice are not one and the same thing. Since all sin is ultimately committed against God, who is infinite, our sin has a correspondingly infinite consequence. What's more, one who spurns the atoning work of Christ on Calvary has only their own effort by which to make atonement for sin. But imperfect, sinful beings cannot ever produce the perfect atonement God requires for sin that only Christ could supply. And so, for all of eternity the unrepentant wicked labor to atone for their sin. How is this unfair when God has made a way for all to escape such a fate through the sacrifice of His Son on the cross? It is neither unfair nor unjust.

Was that the case when David committed premeditated adultery & murder for which His "holiness and justness" required the death penalty?

Had David died? Had He in his sin rejected God entirely? No. David's situation with Bathsheba, then, is not parallel to the fate of those on Judgment Day who stand before God unrepentant in their sin and thus willful enemies of Christ. As I said, the eternal torment of Hell is not about mercy and love but about God's wrath (Jn. 3:36; Ro. 2:5-9) and His righteous, holy, and just punishment of the wicked.

The word used for "punishment" at Mt.25:46 is KOLASIS which was used of correction in ancient times. Surely this is consistent with both God's love and holiness, the goal being love, i.e. the salvation of the lost.

In context, Matthew 25:46 is speaking, not of remedial punishment, but of the wrath of God poured out upon the unrepentant wicked in the eternal punishment of Hell. And that punishment, as the parallelism of the verse indicates, will be as everlasting in its duration as the duration of the eternal life of the righteous in heaven.
 
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JesusLovesOurLady

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I am not a Universalist - my view on this topic is as of yet unformed, so don't take this as a defense of universalism:

I believe you have gotten a wrong view of Universalism - most universalist arguments are based off the love of God, not His power. That is, Universalists believe that God in His love will correct, through discipline, all rebellious beings, as ultimately Victory belongs to Him - so that in the end sin will not have won in any way, shape, or form.

I.e it is a form of, "With love, conquer your enemies."

I personally like this argument, since it makes sense for a perfect God, but I myself am not a Universalist, at least not yet.

Universalism must always be a hope and not a dogma - it can do a lot of harm in the wrong hands.
I know, that's what they claim and probably even believe. But the type of love they're claiming isn't true love, to yourself on someone and drag that person kicking and screaming to a place where he/she has to love you forever, that's not real love. The very phrase, "With love, conquer your enemies," while I would agree with it in other contexts, in this context points towards, forcing oneself on one's enemies, and making them love oneself against another's will, that's not real love.
 
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ClementofA

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So, no, God's essence is not love. His essential nature is that of holy purity, of unsullied, perfect righteousness.

Scripture says "God is love". God's love, holiness and righteousness are all revealed in Scripture as part of who He is.

As I pointed out, we don't read in Scripture of God's loving temple, or His loving angels, or His loving word or throne.

Why would inanimate 'things' be called "love". Yet God loving His enemies, loving the world & telling us to walk in love as Christ loved us, and many other references to God's love, kindness, compassion, mercy, Fatherly correction & the like fill the Scriptures, especially the New Testament.

God is called holy in Scripture a great multitude of times!

What makes Him holy is His righteousness & love. Without such He would not be holy but a despot. A monster like Hitler & Satan.

And God commands us in His word:

"Be you holy as I am holy." (Lev. 11:44, 45; 19:2; 20:7; 1 Pe. 1:15, 16; 2 Pe. 3:11).

The word "holy" means set apart, different. What sets Christians apart from the world? Our love & faith. And obeying Christ's commandments, which are summed up in 2: love God and others. So says the Lord Jesus in the Scriptures.

In context, Matthew 25:46 is speaking, not of remedial punishment, but of the wrath of God poured out upon the unrepentant wicked in the eternal punishment of Hell. And that punishment, as the parallelism of the verse indicates, will be as everlasting in its duration as the duration of the eternal life of the righteous in heaven.


"This popular assertion, however, is fallacious. The fact that such a claim should so long endure and conquer, is proof of the power of deception."

The vast majority of learned sources agree the word aionios, & the noun, aion, can refer to a duration which is of a limited time period that has an end. The real issue here, then, is whether or not the word means a limited time period in the context of Matthew 25:31-46 in regards to punishment. That is something that should be a matter of serious study rather than assumptions based on what my pastor or bible study group assumes to be the case.

Considering the Greek word kolasis ("punishment", Mt.25:46, KJV) can refer to a corrective punishment, that should tell the reader of Matthew 25:46 what the possible duration of aionios ("everlasting", KJV) is & that it may refer to a finite punishment. Why? Because since it is corrective, it is with the purpose of bringing the person corrected to salvation. Oncce saved the person no longer has need of such a punishment & it ends. So it isn't "everlasting". [Or if it "everlasting", it is only everlasting in its positive effect]. Therefore this passage could just as easily support universalism as anything else.

From a review of a book by Ilaria Ramelli, namely The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp):

Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena | Nemes | Journal of Analytic Theology


"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."
http://journalofanalytictheology.com/jat/index.php/jat/article/viewFile/jat.2015-3.181913130418a/271

"Augustine raised the argument that since aionios in Mt. 25:46 referred to both life and punishment, it had to carry the same duration in both cases.5 However, he failed to consider that the duration of aionios is determined by the subject to which it refers. For example, when aionios referred to the duration of Jonah’s entrapment in the fish, it was limited to three days. To a slave, aionios referred to his life span. To the Aaronic priesthood, it referred to the generation preceding the Melchizedek priesthood. To Solomon’s temple, it referred to 400 years. To God it encompasses and transcends time altogether."

"Thus, the word cannot have a set value. It is a relative term and its duration depends upon that with which it is associated. It is similar to what “tall” is to height. The size of a tall building can be 300 feet, a tall man six feet, and a tall dog three feet. Black Beauty was a great horse, Abraham Lincoln a great man, and Yahweh the GREAT God. Though God is called “great,” the word “great” is neither eternal nor divine. The horse is still a horse. An adjective relates to the noun it modifies. In relation to God, “great” becomes GREAT only because of who and what God is. This silences the contention that aion must always mean forever because it modifies God. God is described as the God of Israel and the God of Abraham. This does not mean He is not the God of Gentiles, or the God of you and me. Though He is called the God of the “ages,” He nonetheless remains the God who transcends the ages."

"In addition, Augustine’s reasoning does not hold up in light of Ro. 16:25, 26 and Hab. 3:6. Here, in both cases, the same word is used twice—with God and with something temporal. “In accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian, yet manifested now…according to the injunction of the eonian God” (Ro. 16:25, 26 CLT). An eonian secret revealed at some point cannot be eternal even though it is revealed by the eonian God. Eonian does not make God eternal, but God makes eonian eternal. “And the everlasting mountains were scattered.…His ways are everlasting” (Hab. 3:6). Mountains are not eternal, though they will last a very long time. God’s ways however, are eternal, because He is eternal."
Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jude 7 speaks of the fire that destroyed Sodom as an example of "aionion fire" (the same words aionion fire used in Mt.25:41, compare v.46). Did Sodom burn forever?

Philo was contemporary with Christ & we have this translation of his words which use the same words Christ used at Mt.25:46:

"It is better absolutely never to make any promise at all than not to assist another willingly, for no blame attaches to the one, but great dislike on the part of those who are less powerful, and intense hatred and long enduring punishment [kolasis aiónios] from those who are more powerful, is the result of the other
line of conduct." Philo: Appendix 2: Fragments

In the year 544 A.D. the emperor Justinian wrote a letter:

"It is conceded that the half-heathen emperor held to the idea of endless misery, for he proceeds not only to defend, but to define the doctrine.2 He does not merely say, "We believe in aionion kolasin," for that was just what Origen himself taught. Nor does he say "the word aionion has been misunderstood; it denotes endless duration," as he would have said, had there been such a disagreement. But, writing in Greek, with all the words of that abundant language from which to choose, he says: "The holy church of Christ teaches an endless aeonian (ateleutetos aionios) life to the righteous, and endless (ateleutetos) punishment to the wicked." If he supposed aionios denoted endless duration, he would not have added the stronger word to it. The fact that he qualified it by ateleutetos, demonstrated that as late as the sixth century the former word did not signify endless duration.
Chapter 21 - Unsuccessful Attempts to Suppress Universalism

If Christ meant "endless" punishment at Mt.25:46, why use the ambiguous aionios? Why not instead use the word aperantos ("endless"; 1 Timothy 1:4)? Or why not use the words "no end" as in Lk1:33b: "And of His kingdom there will be no end"? The answer seems obvious.

Early Church Father universalists who were Greek scholars & many others of the time did not see Mt.25:46 contradicting their belief:

"The first Christians, it will be seen, said in their creeds, "I believe in the æonian life;" later, they modified the phrase "æonian life," to "the life of the coming æon," showing that the phrases are equivalent. But not a word of endless punishment. "The life of the age to come" was the first Christian creed, and later, Origen himself (an Early Church Father universalist) declares his belief in æonian punishment, and in æonian life beyond. How, then, could æonian punishment have been regarded as endless?"
Another Aionios Thread - These Things Go On Forever


"Adolph Deissman gives this account: "Upon a lead tablet found in the Necropolis at Adrumetum in the Roman province of Africa, near Carthage, the following inscription, belonging to the early third century, is scratched in Greek: 'I am adjuring Thee, the great God, the eonian, and more than eonian (epaionion) and almighty...' If by eonian, endless time were meant, then what could be more than endless time?" "

Chapter Nine

As regards the fate of the Jewish people, early in the gospel of Saint Matthew Jesus' word does correct them re the false teachings of endless torments and annihilation, as follows:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

"Isn't it ironic that the passage most often used to support everlasting punishment is in fact one strongly opposing it when accurately understood?" (Tom Talbott, author of "The Inescapable Love of God").

Thomas Talbott - Wikipedia
http://www.thomastalbott.com/index.php
 
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JesusLovesOurLady

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"This popular assertion, however, is fallacious. The fact that such a claim should so long endure and conquer, is proof of the power of deception."

The vast majority of learned sources agree the word aionios, & the noun, aion, can refer to a duration which is of a limited time period that has an end. The real issue here, then, is whether or not the word means a limited time period in the context of Matthew 25:31-46 in regards to punishment. That is something that should be a matter of serious study rather than assumptions based on what my pastor or bible study group assumes to be the case.

Considering the Greek word kolasis ("punishment", Mt.25:46, KJV) can refer to a corrective punishment, that should tell the reader of Matthew 25:46 what the possible duration of aionios ("everlasting", KJV) is & that it may refer to a finite punishment. Why? Because since it is corrective, it is with the purpose of bringing the person corrected to salvation. Oncce saved the person no longer has need of such a punishment & it ends. So it isn't "everlasting". [Or if it "everlasting", it is only everlasting in its positive effect]. Therefore this passage could just as easily support universalism as anything else.

From a review of a book by Ilaria Ramelli, namely The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp):

Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena | Nemes | Journal of Analytic Theology


"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."
http://journalofanalytictheology.com/jat/index.php/jat/article/viewFile/jat.2015-3.181913130418a/271

"Augustine raised the argument that since aionios in Mt. 25:46 referred to both life and punishment, it had to carry the same duration in both cases.5 However, he failed to consider that the duration of aionios is determined by the subject to which it refers. For example, when aionios referred to the duration of Jonah’s entrapment in the fish, it was limited to three days. To a slave, aionios referred to his life span. To the Aaronic priesthood, it referred to the generation preceding the Melchizedek priesthood. To Solomon’s temple, it referred to 400 years. To God it encompasses and transcends time altogether."

"Thus, the word cannot have a set value. It is a relative term and its duration depends upon that with which it is associated. It is similar to what “tall” is to height. The size of a tall building can be 300 feet, a tall man six feet, and a tall dog three feet. Black Beauty was a great horse, Abraham Lincoln a great man, and Yahweh the GREAT God. Though God is called “great,” the word “great” is neither eternal nor divine. The horse is still a horse. An adjective relates to the noun it modifies. In relation to God, “great” becomes GREAT only because of who and what God is. This silences the contention that aion must always mean forever because it modifies God. God is described as the God of Israel and the God of Abraham. This does not mean He is not the God of Gentiles, or the God of you and me. Though He is called the God of the “ages,” He nonetheless remains the God who transcends the ages."
Yeah, it refers to the age to come, and the age to come is eternal! And thus those who reject to live with God, live without Him for eternity.

Jude 7 speaks of the fire that destroyed Sodom as an example of "aionion fire" (the same words aionion fire used in Mt.25:41, compare v.46). Did Sodom burn forever?
I heard an online homily given by a priest, who used this passage to prove just the opposite:

"Wait a minute!... Are-are the buildings? Is that's burning forever!?! No! That's imposable folks! He's talking about the inhabitants, he's saying that they went to hell, they're in hell!"
 
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JesusLovesOurLady

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Might as well address this quick discourse while I'm here:
I would think the phrase "he who is being" would refer to God's existence.
First of all, why would God, have the Israelites call Him HE WHO IS BEING (YHWH) the name was simply meant to refer to His existence? The existence of God was not an issue of concern to the ancient Israelites, atheism was almost non-existent at the time. The name YHWH refers to the fact that He is being Himself, all of reality is dependent upon Him. Truth is "that which is" which clearly point to Being Himself, and the simpler and more common translation of YHWH is HE WHO IS, this all points to the fact that God is Truth Himself.

Re 1. of course love gives knowledge of truth. That knowledge of the truth is so one can come to the One Who is love & be saved. Being saved is to live in love by faith in Jesus Christ. That in no way makes truth superior to love. Truth is not the end goal, but love, being love & becoming love in the Lord. Scripture says knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. In 1 Cor.13 you can know all mysteries & have all knowledge, but without love one is nothing. Likewise if God tortured billions for all eternity, he would be nothing.
No, love is dependent upon truth. it is true that love may motivate you to seek truth, but if you don't know that something is there, how can you love it? Yes, the end goal is love and becoming love in the Lord, but love causes union, it's all about uniting yourself with Truth Himself. The Scriptural passages regarding knowledge puffs up, simply refer to those who abusing knowledge to suite there own ends, likewise 1 Cor. 13, refers to one who is failing use his/her knowledge to seek the Lord and Love Him.

Re 2 God's nature is love & that causes Him to always act in love. His nature is consistent with His actions. OTOH if a man says i love God, but hates his brother, he is a liar & the truth is not in him.
Yes, but which is more important, His nature or His actions? Which is better, to love someone because of what one does? Or to love someone because of what one is?
 
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I disagree

Lucifer had free will to choose to rebel against GOD.
Like I said in an earlier post, Lucifer and the angels were not in Heaven in the beginning, they were in testing place where God tested their loyalty. Lucifer and his angels failed the test, and fell into hell.
 
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