Only a loving God would create hell!

[SBC]

"Hell" and "love" are incompatible and shouldn't be in the same sentence. Saying "only a loving God would create hell" is a skewed perception of kindness, love, and mercy.

Like say someone has a legal guardian, and the person doesn't want to be with their legal guardian. The legal guardian wishes the child would stay with them, but they know they can't force it, so they send them to say, another guardian who could take care of them, or, if they're not really a "child" and could go somewhere on their own, the guardian could give advice, and the one they're taking care of could take or leave it. But the advice could keep the out of danger.

That sort of thing would be "loving". And a loving God could easily do that because he supposedly knows everything, and thus could forewarn them of any danger, or even eliminate the danger to begin with.

If hell is added into the mix, then the legal guardian situation becomes like this: the legal guardian takes care of a child, but the child does not want to stay with them. In response, the guardian says that they'll send the child some place where they won't be. Said place is a burning flaming tar pit that the child is tossed into, to burn in screaming agony, without end, until they die. And by the way, the legal guardian created said flaming tar pit of agony.

Flawed analogy ~
There is not another guardian "to take care of them".

God is Love and has great mercy for His earthly creations.

Looking from a different POV which Scripture provides;
A man WHO submits unto God; God changes in several ways, which result in the WHOLE of a man (body, soul, spirit) to become FOREVER alive AND FOREVER with God.

Is a man WHO rejects God, given "changes" in ANY WAYS, which result in the WHOLE of that man to become FOREVER alive?

Scripture says nothing about such a rejecting man being given any changes that result in a FOREVERNESS WITH God.

There shall be an end to that mans existence. He shall not have a forever WHOLENESS existence. His "eternity", is up to the point of his existence, judgement and sentencing. (carrying out of his judgement) And for eternity he shall be separated from the Lord, just as he chose.

Every man who rejects God; God has prepared a place, at their earthly death, for their body to go (earth), their living soul to go (hell), and oops, they never receive a "spiritually forever born again spirit", so no preparation for that.

This has been the case since the beginning ~ so obviously some living souls have experienced a very long time, separated from God; the earths surfaces; it's beauty; its pleasantries and provisions. And once the last human (electing hell) is complete; all together, the living souls in hell, shall get to hang out there together, another 1,000 years.

Then their dead body's are raised, by their living soul returning to their dead "unchanged" body, and both body and living soul in hell, to stand before Christ in Judgement.

So, now they SEE the Lord. Will they then believe the Lord exists? Yes IMO. Will they bow and praise Him? Yes IMO. (according to the book of Isaiah)

Evidence (book of life), Judgement (did not choose God), Sentence, (separation from God forever).

Then what?
Does their "spirit" return to God? No. Because remember, their "spirit" was never born again.
Does their "living soul" return to God? MPOV ~ no. The LIFE in the living soul returns to God, because God IS LIFE, and ALL LIFE belongs to Him.

I believe the living soul then again departs the body, rendering the body a vessel without life.

I believe the life in the soul departs the soul, returns to God, rendering the soul a (vessel of sorts) without life.

I believe the void of life body and soul are then destroyed in hell. Eternally separated from God.

Matt.10

1. [28] And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

God Bless.
SBC

 

[Noxot]

God is infinite mercy, wisdom, and beauty, and the gates of the New Jerusalem are always open. But that doesn't mean that the merciless, the unwise, and the scoffers, will enter through there gates.

You claim to not believe in power, yet in this quote you speak of God triumphing over hell.

The damned will not be won over by the beauty of the Saints, because they have given themselves completely over to evil. On the contrary, the beauty of the Saints will be yet another source of torment for the damned, because they despise them so much.

why would the gates always be open if no one can leave and no one enter at a certain point?

I believe in power I just don't think it's the highest attribute of God because power as the highest would mean you believe some kind of God that is like a human king who has a huge ego and is so "holy" and "righteous" that he must cast away those filthy peasants who dare shame his name or call him by the wrong title. God is not a "might makes right" kind of God. those are fallen human and evolutionary ideas.

the kind of power and any attribute of God I believe in are all rooted in his divine love and wisdom which gives perfect justice. justice that does not love is mechanical and legalistic in nature and is kin to a bureaucratic world system which always falls short of real justice. judgment without wisdom is madness. wisdom always has mankinds best interest in mind.

God does not have to do anything for himself, all he does is for the sake of his creatures. that is real power.

 

[Zoii]

The creator god gave flesh and soul. The Father gave man spirit in Eden. The knowledge of spirit is what saves the soul. The flesh is already dead. The soul is either saved by the spirit, or it isn't. The spirit cannot die. It is given by the Father, and returns to the Father.

This is the Gospel message.

John:
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Paul:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

This doesnt explain the OP

 

[SBC]

why would the doors always be open if no one can leave and no one enter at a certain point?

I believe in power I just don't think it's the highest attribute of God because power as the highest would mean you believe some kind of God that is like a human king who has a huge ego and is so "holy" and "righteous" that he must cast away those filthy peasants who dare shame his name or call him by the wrong title. God is not a "might makes right" kind of God. those are fallen human and evolutionary ideas.

the kind of power and any attribute of God I believe in are all rooted in his divine love and wisdom which gives perfect justice. justice that does not love is mechanical and legalistic in nature and is kin to a bureaucratic world system which always falls short of real justice.

I believe in power I just don't think it's the highest attribute of God

Personally, I don't believe one aspect of God is "higher" than another, but rather all are in conjunction of one requiring the other to operate/be effective, for lack of better words.

Meaning more simply ~ what is great about an idea, if you have no way to implement the idea? Or what is great about power, if you have no ideas for which the power can act? Or what is great about an idea, if you have no way to convey it to act?

Father, Son, Holy Spirit
otherwise (in title);
Idea, Word to convey, Power to effect
otherwise (in simplicity);
Yahweh, Jesus, Christ
otherwise (in name's)
Lord God Almighty
otherwise (in fullness)

Pss 23
[3] He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

John 14
[7] If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

John 10
[30] I and my Father are one.

1Cor 1
[24] But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Rev 19
[13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Rev 4
[8] And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[JesusLovesOurLady]

In your philosophy He is either too weak or too unloving to save all. If God does not save all, is it because He is lacking in omnipotence or lacking in compassion?

I already answered this question, I admitted that, according to your position, I believed that God was too weak and lacking omnipotence. In response, you insisted that I was guilty of the other claim, and rightly so, because I, in choosing to answer your dilemma expose the truth that, Universalist believe in an arbitrary god who ignores the freewill of His creatures, and rags them kicking and screaming to Heaven.

Many people just laugh at the idea of a God Who is Love torturing billions for eternity. They can't take it seriously. This idea causes many millions to never consider the claims of Christ & many millions of others to leave the church or lose their faith. What people do take seriously are just punishments for breaking the laws of the land, even if the punishment is merely a fine or short jail term. Likewise they could respect God justly punishing people, not as the sadist that Satan can only dream of being, but as a loving Father of His created beings.

In these enlightened days of the internet & increased knowledge, many are turning to the views of annihilation and universalism, unlike those of the dark ages of Inquisitions, Crusades, burning of opposers to death & their writings, while taking away freedom of speech & liberty of religion.

You say people respect state punishment, then turn around and that they reject, which is it? On a per-month basis, more people die in the US via capital punishment, than those who died in the inquisitions, (It's like, 30 to 15 if I remember correctly) and that's not including the extra judicial drone strikes and bombings. Also, in the Catholic Church, the Traditional Catholic movement is booming while the modernists and cafeteria catholics on are aging and dying off, and large part of that is due to the internet and increased knowledge, I should know, it's one of the things helped me find and embrace the authentic Traditions of the Catholic Faith. Albeit, the main cause of me being a Traditional Catholic is Our Lord and His Beloved Mother Mary, they are the ones who guided me to the Truth, and helped me slip through the tyrannical fingers of the modernists.

 

[JesusLovesOurLady]

I don't see that at all. Where did you get that out of anything i said?

You, OTOH, have God taking away the free will of those in hell so they have no free will anymore to choose Him.

Taking away the free will of those in hell is consistent with the unloving nature of the character of a god that you posit. But why would a loving God take away their free will?
If free will is needed for union with God, then God has essentially sent them to endless torments. Whereas, OTOH, the loving God of the universal salvation doctrine, would allow them to retain their free will & ultimately be saved. So which God is really loving, the one Who saves all through their own freewill choice, or the one who takes away that choice & therefore causes them to burn for all eternity, much like the Calvinist God?

Why would God take pleasure in burning for the endless eons of eternity those who have no freewill to choose another destiny, who are freewill-less robots?

If freewill is "only a means to that end", then why would God take away the only means for those in hell to achieve that end?

If the freewill of those in heaven was only a means to an end, then it seems God failed in creating freewill in the first place as something only temporary. Better to create all humans without freewill & bring all to that same end in heaven, rather than let even one suffer torments endlessly. Again the lack of love in such a god is evident.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Because they are children of perdition, if one does not unite oneself with God, one will unite oneself with evil.

Also, that is a good question, why does God gave us freewill if it enables us to choose evil? Why can't He just make us all good and in Heaven?

 

[SBC]

Because they are children of perdition, if one does not unite oneself with God, one will unite oneself with evil.

Agree. No fence post sitting, iffy, eh maybe.
The election is our freewill to make.

Luke.11
[23] He that is not with me is against me:

 

[Phantasman]

This doesnt explain the OP

It actually agrees with the OP. The OP is saying what we are saved from. I said knowledge (from Christ) is the only thing that can save us, and that he spoke (of the )spirit. If you follow the Father (through Jesus glorification of what he is), you follow the path to heaven. If you listen to the other god, who Jesus said was a liar and a murderer, you will follow his path to (hell?). Hell is a parable from Jesus. His use of outer darkness makes more sense to me. Away from any light from the son and Father. Oblivion of ignorance and darkness.

 

[SBC]

This doesnt explain the OP

I am not familiar with the depth of your knowledge, so give a brief overview in my words. Hope it is helpful, to your wondering about hell being created by a loving God.

The Why in it's simplest form is;
God is Love, being His nature in all things.
God is Life; to which NOTHING has life in it, except it be from God.
God is the creator and maker of all things.
From text, observance, experience, we can trust to believe God is the provider for all things He has created and made.

To relieve the complications to a simple explanation; everything God creates and makes has interaction between the things, within the things, and all having a connection to God.

Specifically to mankind ~ earth was created for mankind's estate; ie a habitat, with it's necessary provisions to sustain a man; air, food, water, companions, etc.

"the without" mankind ie: the visible form, body, earthen vessel.
....it does nothing, without something to bring it into living. ie the living soul
"the within" the living soul, bringing the body into living.
....the soul does not maintain the bodily life.
"the within" BLOOD of the body, IS the life of the body.
....the Body exists, lives, enjoys it's habitat, companions, etc.
"the within" Blood of the body, stops moving, stops the heart, the body dies.

....now what? Just as God prepared and provided a place for the alive body to exist -
God also prepared and provided a place for the dead body to exist - ie the dirt grave.

.....and the living soul? It was living when imparted, and remains living when departed out of the dead body.
.....It was made by God, has life in it from God, and so does it go back to God?

No and Yes - because of a prophetic fulfillment had to be met.

The Word of God, ie Jesus - is eternally before ALL THINGS. (meaning nothing can exist without the Word of God declaring it (spoken). And nothing "created" ever comes before the Word of God, in declaration or deed/act)

Hell was created FOR "living things" that 1) reject God 2) accept God.....whose "existence" on their "first estate" had come to an end.

Meaning; (there is some application for angels), but this is about mankind.
A body, has it's first estate on earth. It came from the earth without life, it returns to the earth without life.

The living soul comes from God who made it. It departs the dead body. HOWEVER, while the living soul was on earth - in a corrupt (sinful body), the soul becomes corrupt.
The whole point of SAVING a SOUL, is to "restore" the soul from it corruption.

Hell was created for ALL living souls, departed out of their dead body's.
In the beginning ALL living souls, departed out of their dead body's went to hell.
There was a division between, "restored/saved" souls, and corrupt souls.
The "restored/saved" souls remained with the presence of God, (ie the Tree of Life) in comfort.
The "corrupt souls" were separated from Gods presence, and comforts; (ie torment).

Once the Word of God; ie Jesus, was witnessed in hell (where His soul also went, while His body lay dead for 3 days/nights), and Jesus' living soul LEFT HELL ~ thereafter all
"restored/saved" souls, could return to God in heaven. (fulfilling this particular is Jesus being first before all things)

And from henceforth, when a body physically dies, it still goes to the grave/dirt.
And the "restored" souls go to God in Heaven from whence they came and wait, with the Lord.
And the "corrupt" souls go to Hell and wait without the Lord.

So, in a nutshell; EVERYTHING God has created and made; He has provided it's provisions to exist, and provisions for it have an "abode"/estate/place to dwell.

And Hell is a place for LIVING souls of mankind to exist and dwell and wait.
Since, Jesus' fulfillment, (the first soul to leave hell);
All restored saved souls go directly to God after bodily dead.
All corrupt (unsaved souls) continue to go directly to hell, separated from God.

Point being; God is a loving God, and provides for all of His creations.
Hell is one of those provisions.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[JesusLovesOurLady]

Church Father Origen, for example, spoke of the possibility of people suffering torments for many ages. Assuming they continually resisted God's never failing love in ever leaving the door open to their salvation.

By the way, I think you discussed this a bit with aiki, but there is no evidence of anyone, apart from Origen (who, again, is not a Church Father) arguing for universalism, all of them believed in eternal damnation. Origen lived from 184/185 AD to 253/254 AD here's a list quotes from early Church Fathers prior to, and leading up to the birth of Origen:

Second Clement


"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]). (emphasis added)


Justin Martyr


"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments" (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]). (emphasis added)

"[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (ibid., 52). (emphasis added)


Theophilus of Antioch


"Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181]). (emphasis added)


Irenaeus


"The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever" (ibid., 4:28:2). (emphasis added)


All this was written before Origen, and we know of no one but Origen and St. Didymus the Blind, (Who only supported it because he was a fan Origen, not because he did any independent research in the Bible) who advocated for universalism. How is it that only Origen saw these passages that you quote and believed they pointed to universalism, while all these Church Fathers who live before Origen and closer to the time of Apostles miss them, and believed that they pointed to eternal punishment?

 

[JesusLovesOurLady]

I've decided to retire from this debate, and return to my meditative break. Everyone is more than welcome to debating without me, I do however, have request for everyone here, if any universalist catholics appear or return to this thread to debate after I've left, please PM me, and I will examine their posts and consider responding. I believe I have the duty, as a Faithful Traditional Catholic to confront anyone who claims to be Catholic but is hostile to the Faith, and to do all I can to prevent them from doing damage.

Thank you.

 

[ClementofA]

By the way, I think you discussed this a bit with aiki, but there is no evidence of anyone, apart from Origen (who, again, is not a Church Father) arguing for universalism, all of them believed in eternal damnation. Origen lived from 184/185 AD to 253/254 AD here's a list quotes from early Church Fathers prior to, and leading up to the birth of Origen:

Second Clement


"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]). (emphasis added)


Justin Martyr


"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments" (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]). (emphasis added)

"[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (ibid., 52). (emphasis added)


Theophilus of Antioch


"Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181]). (emphasis added)


Irenaeus


"The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever" (ibid., 4:28:2). (emphasis added)


All this was written before Origen, and we know of no one but Origen and St. Didymus the Blind, (Who only supported it because he was a fan Origen, not because he did any independent research in the Bible) who advocated for universalism. How is it that only Origen saw these passages that you quote and believed they pointed to universalism, while all these Church Fathers who live before Origen and closer to the time of Apostles miss them, and believed that they pointed to eternal punishment?

That is erroneous. Pay special attention to what Roman Catholic scholar Ramelli says, especially the part about the word mistranslated as "eternal" being something early church universalists believed as to punishment, since she applies it to your quotes with the same mistranslations in them:

"Augustine himself, after rejecting apokatastasis, and Basil attest that still late in the fourth and fifth centuries this doctrine was upheld by the vast majority of Christians (immo quam plurimi)."

"Of course there were antiuniversalists also in the ancient church, but scholars must be careful not to list among them — as is the case with the list of “the 68” antiuniversalists repeatedly cited by McC on the basis of Brian Daley’s The Hope of the Early Church — an author just because he uses πῦρ αἰώνιον, κόλασις αἰώνιος, θάνατος αἰώνιος, or the like, since these biblical expressions do not necessarily refer to eternal damnation. Indeed all universalists, from Origen to Gregory Nyssen to Evagrius, used these phrases without problems, for universalists understood these expressions as “otherworldly,” or “long-lasting,” fire, educative punishment, and death. Thus, the mere presence of such phrases is not enough to conclude that a patristic thinker “affirmed the idea of everlasting punishment” (p. 822). Didache mentions the ways of life and death, but not eternal death or torment; Ignatius, as others among “the 68,” never mentions eternal punishment. Ephrem does not speak of eternal damnation, but has many hints of healing and restoration. For Theodore of Mopsuestia, another of “the 68,” if one takes into account also the Syriac and Latin evidence, given that the Greek is mostly lost, it becomes impossible to list him among the antiuniversalists. He explicitly ruled out unending retributive punishment, sine fine et sine correctione.

I have shown, indeed, that a few of “the 68” were not antiuniversalist, and that the uncertain were in fact universalists, for example, Clement of Alexandria, Apocalypse of Peter, Sibylline Oracles (in one passage), Eusebius, Nazianzen, perhaps even Basil and Athanasius, Ambrose, Jerome before his change of mind, and Augustine in his anti-Manichaean years. Maximus too, another of “the 68,” speaks only of punishment aionios, not aidios and talks about restoration with circumspection after Justinian, also using a persona to express it. Torstein Tollefsen, Panayiotis Tzamalikos, and Maria Luisa Gatti, for instance, agree that he affirmed apokatastasis.

It is not the case that “the support for universalism is paltry compared with opposition to it” (p. 823). Not only were “the 68” in fact fewer than 68, and not only did many “uncertain” in fact support apokatastasis, but the theologians who remain in the list of antiuniversalists tend to be much less important. Look at the theological weight of Origen, the Cappadocians, Athanasius, or Maximus, for instance, on all of whom much of Christian doctrine and dogmas depends. Or think of the cultural significance of Eusebius, the spiritual impact of Evagrius or Isaac of Nineveh, or the philosophico-theological importance of Eriugena, the only author of a comprehensive treatise of systematic theology and theoretical philosophy between Origen’s Peri Archon and Aquinas’s Summa theologiae. Then compare, for instance, Barsanuphius, Victorinus of Pettau, Gaudentius of Brescia, Maximus of Turin, Tyconius, Evodius of Uzala, or Orientius, listed among “the 68” (and mostly ignorant of Greek). McC’s statement, “there are no unambiguous cases of universalist teaching prior to Origen” (p. 823), should also be at least nuanced, in light of Bardaisan, Clement, the Apocalypse of Peter’s Rainer Fragment, parts of the Sibylline Oracles, and arguably of the NT, especially Paul’s letters.

Certainly, “there was a diversity of views in the early church on the scope of final salvation.” Tertullian, for instance, did not embrace apokatastasis. But my monograph is not on patristic eschatology or soteriology in general, but specifically on the doctrine of apokatastasis. Thus, I treated the theologians who supported it, and not others."

The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: The Reviews Start Coming In
SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class journal research

Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)

Scholars directory, with list of publications:

Ilaria L.E. Ramelli - ISNS Scholars Directory

 

[ClementofA]

I already answered this question, I admitted that, according to your position, I believed that God was too weak and lacking omnipotence. In response, you insisted that I was guilty of the other claim, and rightly so, because I, in choosing to answer your dilemma expose the truth that, Universalist believe in an arbitrary god who ignores the freewill of His creatures, and rags them kicking and screaming to Heaven.

You continue to propagate this misrepresentation even after others in this thread have corrected you. As i said earlier the loving God of the universal salvation doctrine, would allow them to retain their free will & ultimately be saved. So which God is really loving, the one Who saves all through their own freewill choice, or the one who takes away that choice & therefore causes them to burn for all eternity, much like the Calvinist God?

Why would God take pleasure in burning for the endless eons of eternity those who have no freewill to choose another destiny, who are freewill-less robots?

If freewill is "only a means to that end", then why would God take away the only means for those in hell to achieve that end?

If the freewill of those in heaven was only a means to an end, then it seems God failed in creating freewill in the first place as something only temporary. Better to create all humans without freewill & bring all to that same end in heaven, rather than let even one suffer torments endlessly. Again the lack of love in such a god is evident.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[ClementofA]

You say people respect state punishment, then turn around and that they reject, which is it?

The point is that many people can respect a realistic & fair punishment, but just laugh off one that is so ridiculously sadistic & full of hypocrisy. Who could have thought up & inspired such a thing, except old slew foot.

Many people just laugh at the idea of a God Who is Love torturing billions for eternity. They can't take it seriously. This idea causes many millions to never consider the claims of Christ & many millions of others to leave the church or lose their faith. What people do take seriously are just punishments for breaking the laws of the land, even if the punishment is merely a fine or short jail term. Likewise they could respect God justly punishing people, not as the sadist that Satan can only dream of being, but as a loving Father of His created beings.

In these enlightened days of the internet & increased knowledge, many are turning to the views of annihilation and universalism, unlike those of the dark ages of Inquisitions, Crusades, burning of opposers to death & their writings, while taking away freedom of speech & liberty of religion.

-----------------------

"...non-Christians are punished forever for not recieving grace, which doesn't seem very graceful to me."

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."

"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

 

[Noxot]

I would have liked to know why God said that the gates of the new Jerusalem are never closed if people can't enter or leave at a certain point seeing that the entire point of a gate being open is to both enter and exist.

some good angels exit to help those suffering in hell and those in hell who start to slowly change enter into heaven since the symbols of new Jerusalem and outer darkness are conditions of being.

in fact to some angels the earth is a kind of hell and yet here they are helping us along and being lead by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus Christ himself is known to enter hell at times as well.

also the very existence of the earth and we being caught between the influence of both evil and good spirits HELPs the evil spirits sometimes and that means in a small way they performed a good deed, especially when good humans reject the evil. in fact some evil spirits are so wrapped in their minds and hearts that all they know to do is evil and yet deep down inside of them they might attack the good if only as a kind of deep inner yearning for what they lost.

so when an evil spirit serves as a warning sign to us and we reject it we are not stumbled in what he is and so Gods grace makes evil into a useful purpose even though evils only purpose is it's rejection. anyone that has ever seen someone do something stupid but that you might have done but now won't can get how evil spirits can be used to assist us due to the overwhelming grace of God.

their cup of water shall not be considered as something empty but God will repay them with his kindness and mercy.

even when we fall into temptations and thus have a dwelling place with demons we often end up repenting because we grow so weary and sick of the evils that the demons influence us with. who here has not learned the lesson of being in bad company that made you seek to change and not be what you became after a season?

sometimes it takes being surrounded in so much bad company that you can finally see that you were being wicked and wrong. it would be much worse to be lukewarm because you might stay in a paralyzed state of double mindedness with very little spiritual growth.

look at what happened to darth vader, in the end there was still something left in him that was good and what it took was some other evil being that was torturing his own son to snap some sense into him.

 

[SBC]

The point is that many people can respect a realistic & fair punishment, but just laugh off one that is so ridiculously sadistic & full of hypocrisy. Who could have thought up & inspired such a thing, except old slew foot.

Many people just laugh at the idea of a God Who is Love torturing billions for eternity. They can't take it seriously. This idea causes many millions to never consider the claims of Christ & many millions of others to leave the church or lose their faith. What people do take seriously are just punishments for breaking the laws of the land, even if the punishment is merely a fine or short jail term. Likewise they could respect God justly punishing people, not as the sadist that Satan can only dream of being, but as a loving Father of His created beings.

The point is friend ~
you do not get to decide what IS JUST ~
you do not get to decide the order, the how to, the way for a man to Become reconciled unto God. ~

What you and every other individual gets to decide by his own Freewill IS ~ IF you agree with God and elect to Stand With Him or Against Him ~ Period.

Every natural born man has a time frame.
Not a secret all men born on the earth shall die. Period.
Not a secret, dead men know nothing and do not make choices.
Not a secret, your choice to stand with God or against God, is your Freewill to choose WHILE you are living on this earth.

Arguing mens philosophies, mens scoffing, mens disbelief, mens rejections is irrelevant. What IS relevant is an individuals choice to learn about God, and KNOW by the revealing of Gods Word in the text of WHAT TO EXPECT, for ANY Freewill Choice the individual decides to Choose. That is precisely how what is JUST prevails. It works like that in Scripture, and works like than in our Legal system. Ignorance is not an excuse to be relieved of the consequence. There is no excuse, Because what is required, and what choices a man makes, and the consequences thereof are clearly revealed, in the text, and in the statutes. To say one was to lazy to go and see and hear and read what applies to the man, is simply to the individuals own detriment, to have failed to seek the Truth and instead, chose to be ignorant of the facts and the Truth. That as well, was the individuals choice.

It is Completely JUST when the individual has been provided the Knowledge of the consequences of his choices. Stand WITH God, and He shall be WITH the individual. Stand AGAINST God, and He shall NOT be WITH the individual. That simple.
Choose to STAND with God, and the order, the how, the way; He provides a mans reconciliation unto Him that is Clearly revealed, and the consequence for reconciling unto God, and the consequence for NOT reconciling unto God.

Standing with or against God is CLEARLY the mans freewill choice.
The consequence for either choice is CLEARLY revealed, thus it IS JUST, openly revealed.

You speak of men laughing - so what? What exactly are they laughing at? Men who believe? So what? Or laughing at God? How so? How are they laughing at something they don't believe exists?

Then you speak of complaints - of who? Men who believe? Doesn't appear so. Men who do not believe God exists? Huh? Why does a man who does not Believe God exists, all of a sudden CARE about "so called" "God Who is Love torturing billions for eternity" ? Why would "they" (who do not believe in God) give a hoot of ANY "punishment" of a God "they" do not believe exists?

Or am I misunderstanding you?
Is it a "presumed Believer" who is laughing, and challenging Gods Love, and punishment? I can respond to that, once you clarify, if it is a believer or non-believer who is laughing, challenging Gods Love, and consequences for rejecting Him.

Likewise they could respect God justly punishing people

Likewise, I can respond to that comment, once you clarify Who, "they" are. Believers or non-believers? And WHO is the one complaining - the "unbeliever"? Or is it a believer, being an Advocate for the "unbeliever", by challenging Gods Love, by challenging Gods consequences for a mans Unbelief?

Please clarify.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[SBC]

I would have liked to know why God said that the gates of the new Jerusalem are never closed if people can't enter or leave at a certain point seeing that the entire point of a gate being open is to both enter and exist.

What people are you talking about that can't leave or enter?
Scriptural text?

God Bless,
SBC

 

[ClementofA]

The point is friend ~
you do not get to decide what IS JUST ~
you do not get to decide the order, the how to, the way for a man to Become reconciled unto God. ~

I agree. I do not get to decide. God does. And His Scriptures have revealed that all will eventually be saved. However, since i was responding to a philosophical argument, that is how i responded.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[SBC]

I agree. I do not get to decide. God does. And His Scriptures have revealed that all will eventually be saved. However, since i was responding to a philosophical argument, that is how i responded.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Could you elaborate with revealing a scripture or several that claims this? I have searched, but to no avail. Thanks.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[ClementofA]

Could you elaborate with revealing a scripture or several that claims this? I have searched, but to no avail. Thanks.

1 Corinthians 15:22-28