Only a loving God would create hell!

[JesusLovesOurLady]

I'm supposed be away on a meditative break, but I need to put my foot down on this evil!

From: The False God Of The Modern Era | Christian Forums

"Interestingly enough, the first appearance of the god of power in Christian thought, emerged in an argument for Universalism. A monk named William of Ockham, considered the question of wether or not God could bring a sinner to Heaven without changing him. William of Ockham argued; yes, God could bring a sinner to Heaven without changing Him, because God's greatest attribute was power, not Truth and Love, God was all-powerful and because He was all-powerful, He could drag that sinner kicking and screaming to Heaven, by His sheer might alone. See the Youtube video below for more details:


Universalists worship the god of power, they object to the idea of a Loving God "throwing people into hell," but God doesn’t send anyone to hell, people go to hell because they do not love God and don't want spend Eternity with Him. God will not force Himself on those who do not love Him, He will allow those who want to flee from His presence to flee from Him. But the Universalists view God in terms of power, not love, they believe that God, being All-powerful ought to do everything in His infinite power to ensure that no one goes to hell, this view is not about love, but power. Many Universalist arguments appeal to power like, “if the majority of souls go to hell, God would lose the war with Satan.” None of the Universalists speak about human choice and human action, humanity is insignificant in the eyes’ of the Universalists because they see everything under the belief of a god of power. While Universalist insist on god being “all-merciful” and “all-loving,” the Universalists' portrayal of “love” and “mercy” reduces them to nothing more than mere magic tricks, they’re really talking about power."

The fact is, only a loving God would create hell, because only a loving God would not force Himself on those who do not love Him. Hell is where people go, who don't love God period.

There is a hell, and people go there, because they don't love God. If you don't love God, you go to hell! All who go to hell, choose it.

 

[CrystalDragon]

But couldn't Hell be another situation other than burning torture for all eternity? That's not love. That's malevolent and sadistic.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Man is required, by God, to trust Him, and to trust His Word if he wants to know the truth about life after this life on earth, or death, and judgment.

To reject His Word, is the same as rejecting Him.

 

[Winken]

But couldn't Hell be another situation other than burning torture for all eternity? That's not love. That's malevolent and sadistic.

Only if you do not understand scripture.

 

[JesusLovesOurLady]

But couldn't Hell be another situation other than burning torture for all eternity? That's not love. That's malevolent and sadistic.

Well, yeah it's not love, because the damned don't want to spend eternity with Love Himself.

However, hell is not merely "torture" there is more going on there than that, let's take a look at what Our Lord said about hell:

"Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished."
- Gospel of St. Mark 9:45 DRV
​

So why is fire part of the punishment in hell? Sacred Scripture repeatedly uses fire to symbolize the disposal of things that have run their course, thus the fire symbolizes how the damned have given themselves over to fleeting things, instead of giving themselves over to God. The meaning of life is union with God, that's our purpose in life, if we do not seek God, we will end up united with that which fleeting, that which will end up being burnt away.

But what about the worm? The worm is actually much more terrifying than the fire, and yet much more just than the fire. The Fathers and Doctors of the Church identify the worm that dieth not as the worm of regret. The Worm of regret is the conscience of the damned soul knowing that He rejected God, despite God giving Him every opportunity to say "yes" to God and embrace Him and love Him, and yet he refused to do so. This is not "malevolence and sadism" this is justice, if a soul continues to say "no" to God and offend Him despite God giving that soul every opportunity to convert and be saved, God will give that soul over to this, not out of malevolence, but out of justice, because the soul refused His Love and Mercy. The soul suffers not because God "tortures" them, but rather, they are tormented by their distance from God. (albeit, this is an oversimplification, it's a bit more complicated than that, and there is still come mystery.)

 

[SkyWriting]

But couldn't Hell be another situation other than burning torture for all eternity? That's not love. That's malevolent and sadistic.

You can only make that point by not quoting scripture.
Hell is shown as burning torment. It is self-inflicted pain.
To a large part based on things you have said with your tongue while alive.

Luke 16:22

One day the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. And the rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side.

So he cried out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. For I am in agony in this fire.’

But Abraham answered, ‘Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things. But now he is comforted here, while you are left to suffer. And besides all this, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that even those who wish cannot cross from here to you, nor can anyone cross from there to us.’ ‘Then I beg you, father,’ he said, ‘send Lazarus to my father’s house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them so they will not also end up in this place of torment.’ But Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let your brothers listen to them.’

‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone is sent to them from the dead, they will repent.’ Then Abraham said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

 

[1213]

But couldn't Hell be another situation other than burning torture for all eternity? That's not love. That's malevolent and sadistic.

Bible tells about hell this:

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

If unrighteous people would live eternally, they would make life eternal suffering for all. That is why I believe unrighteous people will be destroyed entirely in hell.

 

[CrystalDragon]

Bible tells about hell this:

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

If unrighteous people would live eternally, they would make life eternal suffering for all. That is why I believe unrighteous people will be destroyed entirely in hell.

Oblivion is almost worse IMO.

 

[Zoii]

But couldn't Hell be another situation other than burning torture for all eternity? That's not love. That's malevolent and sadistic.

The longer i think and talk about all this, the more I truly believe so many aspects of the bible were written in unsophisticated ways because people themselves were uneducated and unsophisticated in those times of the bible. That includes heaven being a wonderful physical place where everything is perfect forever, while hell is fire torment and painful. I see explanations like that as an attempt of religous institutions to control people and as being crude.

Religion and thoughts of god should be way more sophisticated than scary stories

 

[Phantasman]

The vision of a burning hell is a result of spiritual ignorance. Jesus spoke in parables, and never took time to teach on it, to his perfect message. Even Fire is misunderstood to equate accelerated atoms to the spirit which isn't made up of physical atoms at all. It's all misunderstanding used to drive an agenda. "Follow us or else....."

If one is drawn by the understanding of the greatest love, why do they even see or teach hell. It doesn't benefit at all. Does one follow Christ to attain heaven (small h) or avoid hell? Christ said to teach the Gospel (good news) not things of fate.

If God is light, and Jesus came from light to become the light of the world, then those who do not know or accept Truth is bound for "outer darkness" (away from light).

The Gospel of John never uses the word "hell". Maybe John never taught on it (which is why Revelations probably wasn't written by the disciple).

Catholic father Tertullian taught that hell was subterranean, in the burning bowels of the earth (remember, the earth had four corners and was flat).

Like John and Pauls letters, the non Canon Gospels do not utilize the word hell at all. It is more a destination one arrives at rather than cast into. A loving father gets nothing out of watching his children burn for eternity.

 

[Phantasman]

Bible tells about hell this:

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

If unrighteous people would live eternally, they would make life eternal suffering for all. That is why I believe unrighteous people will be destroyed entirely in hell.

Understand the message. Matthew was speaking to the Jews. The Jews never understood spirit, since their scriptures had been physical of "body and soul". The spirit was around them but not in them. They died as a result.

Matthews Gospel was written for the Jews, which is why it has the linage of Jesus, something the Jews followed (again physical). Being able to do something and doing it is two different things. Matthews verse is for the listener to understand the same message Jesus taught in all Gospels. Life is in the spirit, not in the flesh which profits nothing.

 

[ClementofA]

You can only make that point by not quoting scripture.
Hell is shown as burning torment. It is self-inflicted pain.
To a large part based on things you have said with your tongue while alive.

Luke 16:22

One day the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. And the rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side.

So he cried out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. For I am in agony in this fire.’

But Abraham answered, ‘Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things. But now he is comforted here, while you are left to suffer. And besides all this, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that even those who wish cannot cross from here to you, nor can anyone cross from there to us.’ ‘Then I beg you, father,’ he said, ‘send Lazarus to my father’s house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them so they will not also end up in this place of torment.’ But Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let your brothers listen to them.’

‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone is sent to them from the dead, they will repent.’ Then Abraham said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

In any case, the duration, nature & purpose of the torments the rich man was suffering are not revealed in this story. His torments there could have lasted less than 5 minutes.

"If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there; If I make my bed in the nether-world (Sheol/Hades/hell), behold, Thou art there." (Psalm 139:8)

We are told the rich man requested water. He seemed to think a few drops of water would ease his sufferings. Apparently this isn't served in "hell" (Hades), but whether or not alcohol & morphine is on the menu is not revealed. After all, God is omnipresent.

Luke 16:27-28 seems to show the rich man's concern for others. Perhaps he was beginning to have a change of heart. Supposedly that is the purpose of those in Hades recieving the word of the Lord, in this case via Abraham.

So does this story do more harm than good for the endless tormenting god position, even if taken literally?

The story speaks of a great gulf fixed stopping the transfer of persons from one place to the other place. It does not say this gulf will remain in place forever. Only that at that moment in time it was so. Possibly the chasm barrier refers to the unrepentant state of those in Hades, & that once they repent the barrier stopping any individual from leaving is removed. Nor does the passage deny the possibility of salvation to the rich man in Hades while he remains there.

They get out of "hell" (Luke 16:19-31) in Revelation 20:11-15, if not sooner.

Lk.16:25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things,

"Son
Lit., child.

"Here, too, was one who, even in Hades, was recognised as being, now more truly than he had been in his life, a “child” or “son of Abraham.” (Comp. Luke 19:9.) The word used is the same, in its tone of pity and tenderness, as that which the father used to the elder son in the parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:31), which our Lord addressed to the man sick of the palsy (Matthew 9:2), or to His own disciples (John 13:33)."

Luke 16:25 Commentaries: "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.


Fear not, said the angel who announced it, for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. Luke 2:10.

Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. Luke 2:14.

Luke 3:5 Every valley shall be filled,
and every mountain and hill shall be made low,
and the crooked shall be made straight,
and the rough ways made smooth;
Luke 3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.’”

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Luke 6:35

Luke 15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
Luke 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

Lk17:4 Even if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times returns to say, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”

---------------


https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."

"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."

 

[ClementofA]

Bible tells about hell this:

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

If unrighteous people would live eternally, they would make life eternal suffering for all. That is why I believe unrighteous people will be destroyed entirely in hell.

"The koiné Greek word for "destroy" in that passage is apollumi (ap-ol'-loo-mee) which is a bit ambiguous."

"The use of "apollumi" is interesting; it's the same word Jesus uses to describe the people that he came to find and save. The same verb is used in the parable of the lost coin in Luke 15:8-10, which describes a woman who has "apollumi" a silver coin. After "losing" the coin, she "seeks diligently" until she finds it. After she finds it, she then "rejoices" with her friends. In the parable, the lost coin represents a sinner, while the woman represents God. The woman finding her coin is akin to a sinner repenting (God gets back something that is very valuable to him)."

Apollumi is also used of the "lost" prodigal son who is later found (Luke 15).

Concerning destruction by God, we see in 1 Corinthians that one is delivered by God's power over to Satan for destruction. For what purpose? That he may be saved:

1 Cor. 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1 Cor. 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men. (Psa. 90:3)

Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.” (Jn.2:19)

Those verses speak of destruction as being temporary or for a positive purpose leading to the salvation of the one destroyed.

Judgement is a good thing:

"My soul yearns for you in the night; in the morning my spirit longs for you. When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness." (Isa.26:9)

The Lord is acquainted with the rescue of the devout out of trial, yet is keeping the unjust for chastening in the day of judging. (2 Pet.2:9)

51 And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem, 52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. 53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. 54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? 55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. 56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. (Luke 9)

The same author who wrote Mt.10:28 penned earlier in the same book:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

Two things I don't get, one, I would bet a majority of non Christians don't believe in God and reject Him, they just haven't been offered a chance to know Him...in other words, they don't choose to reject God, they simply haven't been given a gift of faith.
Two, we are taught that being righteous isn't enough to guarantee salvation. So, the idea that everyone in Hell is unrighteous can't be correct.

 

[ClementofA]

The fact is, only a loving God would create hell, because only a loving God would not force Himself on those who do not love Him. Hell is where people go, who don't love God period.

Any hells [plural] that exist exist only for people's education & correction with a goal of leading beings to repentance and salvation. Compare:

1 Cor.5:4 When you are gathered in thename of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, along with the power of the Lord Jesus, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.…

If every free will choice has a 50% chance of going either way, it would be mathematically impossible for one to reject God forever. Although once one is saved & immortal, what happens to freewill then? Does God take free will away to keep everyone safe and saved, or does He allow His created beings the chance to rebel again? Does incorruption imply that there will not be free will to sin? (Rhetorical questions. No need to answer.)

Since you are Catholic, this is for all the Roman Catholics out there:
Mahound's Paradise: Pope Francis Appoints a Universalist - All Men Will Be Saved - to Replace Müller as Head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith


https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[JesusLovesOurLady]

Any hells [plural] that exist exist only for people's education & correction with a goal of leading beings to repentance and salvation. Compare:

But what's the point of repentance and salvation if we are going to Heaven anyway?

1 Cor.5:4 When you are gathered in thename of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, along with the power of the Lord Jesus, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.…

MAY be saved, not WILL be saved. Saint Paul orders the man to be handed over to Satan in the hope that that man will repent, and return to the Mystical Body of Christ. But that hope is not guaranteed.

If every free will choice has a 50% chance of going either way, it would be mathematically impossible for one to reject God forever.

We are dealing Human beings here, and human beings who have a darkened intellect, a weakened will, and disordered passion, do to our fallen nature. Sin makes us act irrational, because sin detaches us from reality, so even if we have a "50%" chance, as you claim, it is very possible for a person to make the wrong decision, one time, too many. And this assuming there is a 50% chance, which is usually not the case, because there is so many other things going that influence a person's decision for the good, or the bad, it's not that simple.

Although once one is saved & immortal, what happens to freewill then? Does God take free will away to keep everyone safe and saved, or does He allow His created beings the chance to rebel again? Does incorruption imply that there will not be free will to sin? (Rhetorical questions. No need to answer.)

No, there is no freewill in Heaven, because the souls in Heaven have given themselves completely and totally over to God. As I mentioned earlier, that's the purpose of our existence, union with God, that's the meaning of life.

Since you are Catholic, this is for all the Roman Catholics out there:
Mahound's Paradise: Pope Francis Appoints a Universalist - All Men Will Be Saved - to Replace Müller as Head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith


https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Pope Francis, does not have the authority to change the dogma and the doctrine of the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ.

 

[JesusLovesOurLady]

The vision of a burning hell is a result of spiritual ignorance. Jesus spoke in parables, and never took time to teach on it, to his perfect message. Even Fire is misunderstood to equate accelerated atoms to the spirit which isn't made up of physical atoms at all. It's all misunderstanding used to drive an agenda. "Follow us or else....."

If one is drawn by the understanding of the greatest love, why do they even see or teach hell. It doesn't benefit at all. Does one follow Christ to attain heaven (small h) or avoid hell? Christ said to teach the Gospel (good news) not things of fate.

If God is light, and Jesus came from light to become the light of the world, then those who do not know or accept Truth is bound for "outer darkness" (away from light).

The Gospel of John never uses the word "hell". Maybe John never taught on it (which is why Revelations probably wasn't written by the disciple).

Catholic father Tertullian taught that hell was subterranean, in the burning bowels of the earth (remember, the earth had four corners and was flat).

Like John and Pauls letters, the non Canon Gospels do not utilize the word hell at all. It is more a destination one arrives at rather than cast into. A loving father gets nothing out of watching his children burn for eternity.

You are ignoring my argument, and may be making a straw-man argument, I never insisted on the importance of scaring people with hell. (although there is something to be said about "meeting people where there at") I'm just arguing for the mere FACT that hell exist, in fact I'm arguing for the same thing that you are arguing for, the importance of loving God striving to spend eternity with Him. But the fact remains, that if one does not want to spend eternity with God, God will not force Himself on that person but allow him to spend eternity without God.

 

[JesusLovesOurLady]

Catholic father Tertullian taught that hell was subterranean, in the burning bowels of the earth (remember, the earth had four corners and was flat).

By the way, Tertullian was also the guy that came up with the term "Trinity," was he wrong about that too? I mean believed in a flat-earth, how do can we trust a flat-earther with something as big as the Most Holy Trinity!?!

 

[ClementofA]

But what's the point of repentance and salvation if we are going to Heaven anyway?

Avoidance of temporary hells, if one needs such negative motivations (fire insurance) to serve God. Paul said it was the love of Christ that constrained, i.e. forced, him. Church Father Origen, for example, spoke of the possibility of people suffering torments for many ages. Assuming they continually resisted God's never failing love in ever leaving the door open to their salvation. BTW the gates into the New Jerusalum are never shut. See the book of Revelation where God says "I am making all [not some] new".

MAY be saved, not WILL be saved. Saint Paul orders the man to be handed over to Satan in the hope that that man will repent, and return to the Mystical Body of Christ. But that hope is not guaranteed.

The point is God delivering one to Satan for destruction is for the purpose of salvation. Likewise for those who suffer any other 'hell'.

We are dealing Human beings here, and human beings who have a darkened intellect, a weakened will, and disordered passion, do to our fallen nature. Sin makes us act irrational, because sin detaches us from reality, so even if we have a "50%" chance, as you claim, it is very possible for a person to make the wrong decision, one time, too many. And this assuming there is a 50% chance, which is usually not the case, because there is so many other things going that influence a person's decision for the good, or the bad, it's not that simple.

Since God's love never fails, there is no such thing as making "the wrong decision, one time, too many". Because of His love, God never gives up on anyone. However in your philosophy God's love has an expiry date like that on a milk carton. In your philosophy He is either too weak or too unloving to save all. If God does not save all, is it because He is lacking in omnipotence or lacking in compassion? As long as He is still reaching out to those in any hell, it is mathematically impossible they would reject Him an infinite number of times, i.e. forever.

Douay-Rheims Bible
If I ascend into heaven, thou art there: if I descend into hell, thou art present. (Psalm 139:8)

31For the Lord will not cast off for ever;

32but if he have caused grief, he will have compassion according to the multitude of his loving-kindnesses:

33for he doth not willingly afflict or grieve the children of men. (Lamentations 3)

No, there is no freewill in Heaven, because the souls in Heaven have given themselves completely and totally over to God. As I mentioned earlier, that's the purpose of our existence, union with God, that's the meaning of life.

What about the third of the angels of heaven who rebelled with Lucifer?

So those in heaven are basically robots, then, eh? God forces them to stay there forever. Maybe He should do that for everyone instead of sadistically torturing billions for all the endless eons of eternity.

Pope Francis, does not have the authority to change the dogma and the doctrine of the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ.

And yet there are a great many Roman Catholics who are universalists or hope for the same. As to doctrine, that is a matter of opinion & controversy within the RCC itself:

From "Good Goats: Healing Our Image of God", p.66 via the Paulist Press, 1994:

"The Church, which invokes its infallibility in the canonization of the saints, has never done so with regard to the damned. We cannot know with certainty if even one human soul does in fact go to hell" (quoting Karl Rahner).

Good Goats: Healing Our Image of God: Dennis Linn: 9780809134632: Books - Amazon.ca

"Karl Rahner, S.J. (5 March 1904 – 30 March 1984), was a German Jesuit priest and theologian who, alongside Henri de Lubac, Hans Urs von Balthasar, and Yves Congar, is considered one of the most influential Catholic theologians of the 20th century."

 

[Phantasman]

You are ignoring my argument, and may be making a straw-man argument, I never insisted on the importance of scaring people with hell. (although there is something to be said about "meeting people where there at") I'm just arguing for the mere FACT that hell exist, in fact I'm arguing for the same thing that you are arguing for, the importance of loving God striving to spend eternity with Him. But the fact remains, that if one does not want to spend eternity with God, God will not force Himself on that person but allow him to spend eternity without God.

Those who reject life, dies. Jesus whole message was to give life and in abundance. People may believe that the world is reality, and the spiritual life an illusion. A Christian learns (through truth) that we are in an illusion and spirit is reality. I do not concern myself where others wind up. And I don't tell others where they will wind up. I follow the hope and faith where Jesus says I will be.

It is about choice.