supermagdalena
The Shrubs and the Flan.
Which, compared to other historical documents we accept as fact, is pretty good. Urgh...I have some stats somewhere. I'll dig em' up sometime tonight.
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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Maybe because he wants you to examine how you know things to be true.HomeBound said:
I refuse to hold a belief that I cannot justify verbally, it prevents me from keeping beliefs out of habit.
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supermagdalena
The Shrubs and the Flan.
I see nothing wrong with one questioning their faith. It's healthy to be educated about what you believe, and if you never question anything you're really just being a robot.
I'm like that too, revolutio...after I became a Christian I didn't grow and couldn't grow until I researched everything pertaining to Christianity to make sure I could really trust it. I'm a natural skeptic and have a curiosity about things. What surprised me at that time is that such a search only strengthened my faith and stabilized it.
I'm like that too, revolutio...after I became a Christian I didn't grow and couldn't grow until I researched everything pertaining to Christianity to make sure I could really trust it. I'm a natural skeptic and have a curiosity about things. What surprised me at that time is that such a search only strengthened my faith and stabilized it.
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How many times must i repeat events. Our culture has had its own way of recording history. We don't need the view spewed out by "Standard Orientalism".radorth said:
Muhammad died on June 8, 632.
The Rashidun (rightly guided) Caliphs is what the majority of Muslims call the first four successors to the Prophet Muhammad. Each was among the earliest of the Meccan members of the Quraysh to convert to Islam and was regarded by the Prophet as one of his close Companions (Sahaba).
First Caliph: Abu-Bakr Assiddiq 632->634
Second: Umar 634->644
Third: Uthman 644-656 (12 years after Muhammad!!)
Fourth: Ali 656-661
So you see. They were around with Muhammad when he first started preaching in Mecca and were among the first to convert to Islam (english: Submission to God). By the time of Uthman, Muslim armies had spread to Persia and Syria. Uthman collected all the Qur'ans had ordered all the Qur'an that had spread to be destroyed and they compiled the one which the "Reciters" memorized by heart. Of course, they had all memorized it the same way since Muhammad's time. Which was barely 2 decades! So the Qur'an we have is identical to the one Muhammad revealed to us from God.
Destroy the remaining copies which might have had alterations from the original. The original was memorized orally by almost everyone. Small variations in accent or pronunciation can change the entire meaning of a word in arabic.
So after compiling the version used orally, since all the pronunciations are clear, all other versions were destroyed to ensure that the only valid copy was the one used orally, which the prophet Muhammad had made everyone around him memorize for just this purpose. Preserving the Qur'an in its original form.
Also, to make sure that this problem would never repeat, a system of special writing was developed in which each letter would be specially combined with another character to produce a specific sound. Ever since, the Arabic language took on a new life.
We still have copies of the Qur'an dating back to 650AD. That's almost 1400 years ago!! No change has come to the text since and we have the text in its original language, translations are very recent.
"...We have not sent you (O Muhammad) as a protector over them. Your duty is to convey (the Message, the Qur'an). And verily, when We cause man to taste of Mercy from Us, he rejoices thereat, but when some ill befalls them because of the deeds which their hands have sent forth, then verily, man (becomes) ingrate! [Qur'an42:48]
Ummmm you're in denial.
You're referring to the Hadith, a totally seperate work from the Qur'an and considered to be the "Sayings" of Muhammad. The Qur'an being the Word of God in letter as Jesus was the Word of God in flesh.
The sayings were written down during and after Muhammad's life. And there was a thorough process of checking the validity of each. Whenever you read a Hadith, you will see through WHOM it was passed until written down. ie: "as related by GuyA, who heard from GuyB that Muhammad said 'so and so'". Some Hadiths are directly transmitted from Muhammad, others went through several ears and mouths before being written down. So the Hadiths is only a point of reference, but never authoratative.
The Qur'an is considered the Perfect and Preserved Literal Word of God, and cannot be changed, but is valid for all ages and peoples. The Hadiths are nothing like that.
Today though, many poeple recite the Qur'an as though it were a song or to be taken lightly. Eventhough the Book is among us, there is no Knowledge of it.
Salaam.
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Tariki
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Just moving back to the "One Way" theme..................
How do others view grace? As a gift that is offered and which we therefore need to accept to be "saved" and in doing so "pass over" from the "lost"...................Or as a gift that has already been given, and therefore needs only to be recognised? And who would it be that does the "recognition"?
It seems to me that there can be all the difference in the world between the two. To feel we have "accepted" the gift leaves room for a sense of "works".....and all the misery that follows!
For me, the gift already given is the "one way"....................Reality-as-is is gracious, eternally pouring forth a creativity that is life-giving and free. God is Love.....love keeps no record of wrongs.......(Often I seem to prefer the wrongs, the judgements I make of others - which in one sense is to cling to my own justifications, my own "way", my own "acceptance", rather than truly living the gift, which finally vindicates itself.)
How the gift is comprehended and made manifest within each human heart is the "many ways".......the many mansions.
Getting back to verification.........How can the gift be verified? By pouring over history books?.......by "proving" a particular way is superior to others by arguments that often are only understood by the one who is arguing? By giving the gift a name tag and then insisting that that particular name tag must be acknowledged by others before they can lay claim to the full benefits? The fact would seem to be that a life of grace has been lived by many, of all faiths and sometimes of none...........a value that can be "self-evident"............by those with eyes to see!
When in the soul of the serene disciple,
With no more fathers to imitate,
Poverty is a success,
It is a small thing to say the roof is gone:
He has not even a house.
Stars, as well as friends,
Are angry with the noble ruin.
Saints depart in several directions.
Be still:
There is no longer any need of comment.
It was a lucky wind
That blew away his halo with his cares,
A lucky sea that drowned his reputation.
(The Strange Islands, by Thomas Merton)
What a wonderful thing..............to have our halo's blown away...............begging a share of that which everyone has received.......
How do others view grace? As a gift that is offered and which we therefore need to accept to be "saved" and in doing so "pass over" from the "lost"...................Or as a gift that has already been given, and therefore needs only to be recognised? And who would it be that does the "recognition"?
It seems to me that there can be all the difference in the world between the two. To feel we have "accepted" the gift leaves room for a sense of "works".....and all the misery that follows!
For me, the gift already given is the "one way"....................Reality-as-is is gracious, eternally pouring forth a creativity that is life-giving and free. God is Love.....love keeps no record of wrongs.......(Often I seem to prefer the wrongs, the judgements I make of others - which in one sense is to cling to my own justifications, my own "way", my own "acceptance", rather than truly living the gift, which finally vindicates itself.)
How the gift is comprehended and made manifest within each human heart is the "many ways".......the many mansions.
Getting back to verification.........How can the gift be verified? By pouring over history books?.......by "proving" a particular way is superior to others by arguments that often are only understood by the one who is arguing? By giving the gift a name tag and then insisting that that particular name tag must be acknowledged by others before they can lay claim to the full benefits? The fact would seem to be that a life of grace has been lived by many, of all faiths and sometimes of none...........a value that can be "self-evident"............by those with eyes to see!
When in the soul of the serene disciple,
With no more fathers to imitate,
Poverty is a success,
It is a small thing to say the roof is gone:
He has not even a house.
Stars, as well as friends,
Are angry with the noble ruin.
Saints depart in several directions.
Be still:
There is no longer any need of comment.
It was a lucky wind
That blew away his halo with his cares,
A lucky sea that drowned his reputation.
(The Strange Islands, by Thomas Merton)
What a wonderful thing..............to have our halo's blown away...............begging a share of that which everyone has received.......
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Tariki
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My understanding of Christianity is that its core message is not "Love one another"...........but follows from the words of Jesus given in the gospel of St John............"A new commandment I give unto you, that you love one another, AS I FIRST LOVED YOU"..............To truly hear these words is to begin to open the heart to true faith and grace..........and an ethics of gratitude.HomeBound said:
Just to hear the command "Love one another" places an intolerable burden upon us......................well, as the English mystic and poet William Blake once said........"If moral virtue were Christianity then Socrates was the Saviour"........
As far as the "failing miserably" is concerned.............as far as Pure Land Buddhism is concerned, it is only when we fully realise just how miserably we do fail that the heart of True Entrusting can arise.......
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supermagdalena
The Shrubs and the Flan.
Actually, that was the second priority given by Jesus to us in the gospels. The first priority is the love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind, and all your strength. All else come after the love of God.
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Tariki
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I suppose this is what it can come down to....................(just what scripture and what verse and what interpretation is down to us..............and the various theologies built upon our selections)supermagdalena said:
And do our selections and interpretations in a sense "judge" us?
Yet perhaps prior to all our selections is the grace/mercy/love of Reality-As-Is, and the selections will ultimately prove irrelevant!. Need we always experience faith as some sort of act of will? ...........can faith also be experienced as a gift? In my experience the grace of the Other Power preceeds all "loving of others" and the "loving of God"...........personally the only love I truly seem capable of is self love. It is in seeing this and realizing this that is hopefully opening my heart to true entrusting................the deeper the shadow, the brighter I know the sun to be.
Each day a first day:
each day a life.
Each morning we must hold out the
chalice of our being
to receive
and give back.
It must be held out empty - for the past must only be reflected
in its polish, its shape, its capacity.....
(Dag Hammarskjold)
Just a tip concerning scripture........."When the bird and the book disagree always believe the bird".........
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