One thing i struggle with - predestination

[Mr Potato Head]

Gamecock is referring to Romans 9:20 (or the general area) where it says "But who are you, O man, to talk back to God?" (see context)

What he is not saying is that Romans 9 is a throwback to Jeremiah 18 which paints quite a different picture of God's sovereign choice than Calvinists would have you believe. It is not saying that God is choosing to **** certain souls because he does not delight in the destruction of the wicked and desires that all people be saved.

 

[Benedicta00]

Where is God's sovereign choice that he limits salvation to those whom he chooses to save at in the bible? Show me where the bible actually teaches that he does not give all souls the chance to know him.

And I do not talk back to God that is why I am wondering why so many do. He created us with free will and he wants us to have free will, who is man to say that he is not sovereign if he doesn’t allow us to chose against him?

 

[lands21]

Limited Atonement is a doctrine offered in answer to the question, "for whose sins did Christ atone?" The Bible teaches that Christ died for those whom God gave him to save (John 17:9). Christ died, indeed, for many people, but not all (Matthew 26:28). Specifically, Christ died for the invisible Church -- the sum total of all those who would ever rightly bear the name "Christian" (Ephesians 5:25).​

This doctrine often finds many objections, mostly from those who think that Limited Atonement does damage to evangelism. We have already seen that Christ will not lose any that the father has given to him (John 6:37). Christ's death was not a death of potential atonement for all people. Believing that Jesus' death was a potential, symbolic atonement for anyone who might possibly, in the future, accept him trivializes Christ's act of atonement. Christ died to atone for specific sins of specific sinners. Christ died to make holy the church. He did not atone for all men, because obviously all men are not saved. Evangelism is actually lifted up in this doctrine, for the evangelist may tell his congregation that Christ died for sinners, and that he will not lose any of those for whom he died!​

 

[G4m]

Romans 9
16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

Romans 11
32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

[lands21]

That he might have mercy upon all

Mercy is favor shown to the undeserving. It could not have been shown to the Jews and the Gentiles unless it was before proved that they were guilty. For this purpose proof was furnished that they were all in unbelief. It was clear, therefore, that if favor was shown to either, it must be on the same ground, that of mere undeserved mercy. Thus, all people were on a level; and thus all might be admitted to heaven without any invidious distinctions, or any dealings that were not in accordance with mercy and love. "The emphasis in this verse is on the word "mercy." It signifies that God is under obligation to no one, and therefore that all are saved by grace, because all are equally ruined." (Calvin.) It does not prove that all people will be saved; but that those who are saved shall be alike saved by the mercy of God; and that He intends to confer salvation on Jews and Gentiles on the same terms. This is properly the close of the argument of this Epistle. By several independent trains of reasoning, the apostle had come to the same conclusion, that the Jews had no special privileges in regard to religion, that all people were on a level, and that there was no hope of salvation for any but in the mercy of a sovereign God. This conclusion, and the wonderful train of events which had led to this state of things, give rise to the exclamations and ascriptions of praise with which the chapter closes.

 

[pmarquette]

comprehend is that God chooses who is saved, at least this is what i am taught. So the saved are pre-destined. --- 2 timothy 1.7 god is not in doubt and fear business ; Calvin blew it on this doctrine ;
does not fit in epistles , gospels , or prophetic books ...

God has purposed [ predestinated ] that we all are saved , as all fathers desire that their children succeed ....

If God knew all who are going , and no matter what we do : we are " stamped " saved or rejected .... why preserve the bible ? why speak of deception , false teachers, false prophets, having your faith shipwrecked , warn of the carnal side of our nature ?

look up Predestine , Predestinate in a concordance "blueletterbible dot com "look at original hebrew and greek words , and english rendering ....

the good news , is the bad news is wrong - ok?

 

[G4m]

Mercy is favor shown to the undeserving. It could not have been shown to the Jews and the Gentiles unless it was before proved that they were guilty. For this purpose proof was furnished that they were all in unbelief. It was clear, therefore, that if favor was shown to either, it must be on the same ground, that of mere undeserved mercy. Thus, all people were on a level; and thus all might be admitted to heaven without any invidious distinctions, or any dealings that were not in accordance with mercy and love. "The emphasis in this verse is on the word "mercy." It signifies that God is under obligation to no one, and therefore that all are saved by grace, because all are equally ruined." (Calvin.) It does not prove that all people will be saved; but that those who are saved shall be alike saved by the mercy of God; and that He intends to confer salvation on Jews and Gentiles on the same terms. This is properly the close of the argument of this Epistle. By several independent trains of reasoning, the apostle had come to the same conclusion, that the Jews had no special privileges in regard to religion, that all people were on a level, and that there was no hope of salvation for any but in the mercy of a sovereign God. This conclusion, and the wonderful train of events which had led to this state of things, give rise to the exclamations and ascriptions of praise with which the chapter closes.

Isaiah 45
17 But Israel will be saved by the LORD
with an everlasting salvation;
you will never be put to shame or disgraced,
to ages everlasting.

Romans 11
26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."

 

[WOGminister]

This word is only properly used when it is used in refrence to God's plan or purpose of salvation. The greek word rendering "predestinate" is only found in six passages, ACTS 4:28,Rom 8:29-30,1 Cor 2:7,Eph 1:5-7AND IN ALL OF THESE VERSES IT IS THE SAME MEANING...

They teach that the eternal,sovereign,immutable,and unconditional decree or "determined purpose" of GOd governs all events!

THe doctrine of predestination or election is beset with many difficulties. It belongs to the "select things" of GOD. BUt if we take the revealed word of God as our guide, we must accept this doctrine with ALL its mysteriousness, and settle our questionings in a humble, devout acknowledgement, "Even so, Father:For it seemed good in thy sight".

Here's some more scripture for insight onthis issue: Gen. 21:12,EX.9:16,Duet.10:15/32:8,Josh 11:20,1 Sam 12:22,2 CHr.6:6,Ps 33:12/65:4/78:68,135:4,Isa 41:1-10,Jer 1:5,MArk 13:20,Luke 22:22,John 6:37/15:16/17:2,6,9-Acts 2:28/3:18/4:28/13:48/17:26-Rom 9:11,18,21/11:5,Eph 3:11, 1 Thess. 1:4, 2 Thess 2:13,2 Tim 1:9,Titus 1:2,1` Peter 1:2- All these will give you a clearer understanding of the WORD

Hodge has well remarkled that "rightly understood, this doctrine 1)exalt the majesty and absolute sovereignty of GOd , while it illustrates the riches of his free grace and his just displeasure with sin. 2) It enforces upon us the essential truth that salvation is entirely of grace. THat no one can complain if passed over, or boast himself if saved. 3)It brings the enquirer to absolute self-despair and the cordial embrace of the free offer of Jesus Christ. 4) In case of the believer who has the witness in himself, this doctrine at once deepends hios humility and his confidence to the full assurance of hope.