One saved always saved (Eternal Security)

[Oldmantook]

The parable of the lost sheep. Love it. Best part was the shepherd leaving the 99 to go get the sheep. That factually happens and the Holy Spirit does convict us of sin leading us to repentance. I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir on this one.
However what is not in the text is the sheep repenting before being found. The sheep is found and the shepherd puts it on his shoulders and brings him back. That is a very significant difference between what you said and what the text presents.

Also the text says the sheep wanders away. Says nothing about listening. You are trying to combine two different parables teaching two separate truths.

You do an excellent job of stretching the text to conform to your belief. In essence what you are saying is that a lost sinner is found before he/she repents. That is a very significant difference between what you say and what the scriptures teach. Restoration is only possible, if and after one repents.

 

[Oldmantook]

If they are not saved, they are false converts. Not a logical fallacy, simply the truth. You shall know them by their fruit.

Your reasoning is not logical. Yes true believers are known by their fruit. However it is illogical to state that just because SOME who don't have fruit were never believers in the first place, to then claim that ALL who don't have fruit were never believers. The scriptures teach that some will apostatize; depart and fall away from the faith. How can an unbeliever apostatize/depart from the faith if he/she never belonged to the faith in the first place? It is impossible to fall away from something you were never united with. Only genuine believers can apostatize from the faith.

 

[Oldmantook]

How can, as Jesus taught, a seed, when planted in shallow soil grow for a while, then wither and die? This seed was not watered, it did not have deep roots, just like people believe a little but not deeply. Being baptized by the Holy Spirit is where the difference is. A carnal person may learn, understand basic theology, quote scripture, but never really believe. This is why James said, show me your faith. You must demonstrate your faith and that is of course the Spirit working in you. Where is the fruit of the Spirit? And when troubles come, someone dies, your wife leaves you for another man and you lose faith, that is a carnal faith, not a spiritual one. Perseverance is a demonstration of real faith. We may backslide, become depressed and despondent for a period of time but we eventually come back. Belief also means that you do what Jesus says, you are obedient.
The Lord will not give you more than you can handle and so if you can't handle it, you really don't have the Lord inside, you've not been born again and transformed. This is a spiritual transformation when we enter into eternal life -- we are certain of our communion with the Lord so we don't fall from that and turn against Jesus.

The problem with your interpretation is that the verse does not say "believe a little" as you wrote. It plainly reads believe for a while. Believe means believe - if only for a while. Believe in this verse is the exact same word for believe used in Jn 3:16. Pisteuo never refers to unbelievers or only those who believe a little.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

It is more than that. It is not only rejecting Christ, but it is rejecting His words, too.

Jesus says in John 12:48 that if we receive not His words, those very words will judge them on the last day. Which words of Jesus will judge them? Matthew 5:22, Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, etc.

One in the same.
Blessings

 

[Oldmantook]

Sorry missed responding to this specifically in my post.
I pointed out earlier out of all the soils mentioned only one was good to receive the seed. This is the only soil which will receive the Holy Spirit. Why? Because none of the others have a good root. Meaning only the good soil receives Christ as the root.

The verse plainly states believe for a while. It does not say never believed. The verse states they fell away - fell away from what? How can they fall away from something/the faith if they never truly belonged to the faith in the first place? The verse states that they were tested. How is it that these unbelievers as you claim are tested? Only believers are tested.

 

[Oldmantook]

This confirms the sheep who hear the Shepherd's Voice follow Him. That much is clear.

How this supports your hypothetical back slider is not clear.

Hypothetical back slider? So may I assume that you believe a genuine believer cannot back slide? If so, how would you explain Rom 8:13?

That verse does not support losing justification. Unless you think what we do justifies us in the first place. No one is arguing against living pure lives as disciples of Christ. That is commanded of the elect. However, once again we are at a cross road of how does one quantify the point at which (according to you) we lose our justification.

For example, if I lie to you it is a sin. If I do then do I lose my standing as justified before God? Then two days later I repent I'm justified again? Meaning our justification is a day to day occurrence?

My best suggestion to you would be for your to study the NT scriptures on what they teach on the difference between occasional sin (which everyone does since no one is without sin) and the practice of sin or habitual sin. The ramifications and consequence is different for each. I don't have time right now to get into it. But reply to me again if you want my perspective and I'll try to explain time permitting.

No John 10 where Christ explains the sheep hear His voice only mentions sheep as those the Father gives Him. The only implication in the text is the Father does not give Christ defective sheep. Why? Because He will lose none.

So the only sheep discussed in the text are those who hear Him and none will be lost. There's no "but or if" clauses in the text. You added that.

Indeed; none of the sheep who hear/follow him in the text will be lost. In order for you to sustain your view you have to maintain the position that there is no such thing as sheep who do not follow as you claim that Jesus will lose none that the Father gives to him.
If that is true, explain how Jesus lost Judas. Examine John 17:6-12 carefully. This passage states the Judas along with the rest of the disciples were given to Jesus by the Father. Did the Father make a mistake. In this descriptive passage there is not one iota of difference between Judas and the others except for the sole distinguishing characteristic that Judas was lost so that the Scripture would be fulfilled. Judas was given to Jesus by the Father and they obeyed (v.6); they accepted and believed (v.8); Jesus kept and protected them 'in His name' which can never apply to an unbeliever (v.11). Despite all of the above, Judas was lost. So contrary to your belief, sheep can and do become "defective."

 

[redleghunter]

He presents us the God news then tells us what to DO
.salvation is fully condtional upon obedience to the Good news.

He says His sheep do. That's the point.

 

[redleghunter]

In essence what you are saying is that a lost sinner is found before he/she repents. That is a very significant difference between what you say and what the scriptures teach.

Actually Jesus makes it clear He goes out and searches and finds. The sheep did not find its way back. That's why he dined with sinners. To find the sick and lost. The ones who hear His voice follow Him. To follow Him we must be like Him.

 

[redleghunter]

The verse plainly states believe for a while. It does not say never believed. The verse states they fell away - fell away from what? How can they fall away from something/the faith if they never truly belonged to the faith in the first place? The verse states that they were tested. How is it that these unbelievers as you claim are tested? Only believers are tested.

There is only one soil suitable for the seed to grow.

 

[mark kennedy]

The verse plainly states believe for a while. It does not say never believed. The verse states they fell away - fell away from what? How can they fall away from something/the faith if they never truly belonged to the faith in the first place? The verse states that they were tested. How is it that these unbelievers as you claim are tested? Only believers are tested.

That is to be enlightened, to see, perceive, understand. They have even:

tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age. (Hebrews 6:5)
​

That's not saving faith, even people who hear the word sometimes never believe, but they understand. Some who believe fall prey to a lack of resolve and inordinate affections. They were brought to a time of decision and decided against Christ. The answer to the question is that they fell away from the faith. They were never saved, they were never born again because they never received the engrafted word. You get that choice once, after that the condition is permanent. Our Arminian-Wesleyan brethren call this prevenient grace, and their right, but it's not saving faith.

They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us. You, however, have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth (1 John 1:19-20)
​

Notice they weren't anointed.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Rik Brooks]

...
Are you aware of what believing means?

and herein lies one of my pet peeves - redefining or expanding words.

Believe means precisely what it means. I can tell by the structure of your post that you have more than a casual understanding of the word believe. I would bet a dollar to a donut that you know full well that believe does not mean to believe and follow but means precisely what it means.

I see that several times you redefine words in your post. Why do you do that?

 

[dms1972]

I am not sure on this question but the contrary position at least as it is expressed by CS Lewis is that eternal life is a different sort of life than we have from our parents, but just as we can lose that natural life by neglecting it or drive it away by commiting suicide, so we may lose the spiritual life. In his view one is moment by moment living the spiritual life, or that life is coming to one moment by moment, its dependent on one continuing in faith.

"Your natural life is derived from your parents; that does not mean it will stay there if you do nothing about it. You can lose it by neglect, or you can drive it away by committing suicide. You have to feed it and look after it: hut always remember you are not making it, you are only keeping up a life you got from someone else. In the same way a Christian can lose the Christ-life which has been put into him, and he has to make efforts to keep it. But even the best Christian that ever lived is not acting on his own steam—he is only nourishing or protecting a life he could never have acquired by his own efforts. And that has practical consequences. As long as the natural life is in your body, it will do a lot towards repairing that body. Cut it, and up to a point it will heal, as a dead body would not. A live body is not one that never gets hurt, but one that can to some extent repair itself. In the same way a Christian is not a man who never goes wrong, but a man who is enabled to repent and pick himself up and begin over again after each stumble—because the Christ-life is inside him, repairing him all the time, enabling him to repeat (in some degree) the kind of voluntary death which Christ Himself carried out."

 

[Willing-heart]

“The Scriptures teach that our salvation is a past, present, and future salvation. We have been saved, and we shall be saved. We were changed into new creations when we were saved, we are being changed through a process of sanctification, and we shall be changed at the resurrection.” – Dr. Michael Youssef

In other words, this means the gift of Salvation is Triple locked by:

1. God the Son, (Lock 1): Jesus said in John 10:28, “I give them eternal life and they shall never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand.
2. God the Father, (Lock 2): Jesus said in John 10:29, “My Father who has given them to me is greater than all, no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand
3. The Holy Spirit, (Lock 3): Later on, Jesus said in John 14;16, “And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, who will be with you forever”

Blessed Assurance {Part II}

 

[RisenInJesus]

But what type of sins can a believer do at certain times? So they can sleep with prostitutes every once in a while? Beat their children only every once in a blue moon? Hate the brethren only once per year as long as they confess? You no doubt believe that a believer will be a slave to their sin. What kind of sins are acceptable in this being a slave to their sin? What is the infrequency of their sin whereby they would not be considered a child of God? Oh, and are they saved even while they are in a state of unrepentance and rebellion against God? For you admit that a believer will sin sometimes (and will always be this way). Are we to assume that when a believer does slip into watching porn, that they are saved while watching porn because God knows they will repent? Can a believer indulge in porn their whole life only if they do it on occasion and it is okay because they are confessing it to God? Let me give you a real world example of how this would not work with God. In Scripture, the church is compared to a bride. So the Lord is like our husband. Now, if a husband today were to cheat on his wife only on occasion his whole life, is it okay as long as he just tells her that he is sorry? I don't believe that such a thing would be acceptable to a wife. She would think that he was not truly devoted to him and she would eventually leave. Kings have servants who are supposed to do what they command. If the servants were to serve themselves only on occasion, I would see that as being a problem with the King. It would be disloyatly. Especially if they said to their King if they were planning on doing evil against Him only on occasion. Do you see the problem with your belief here?

Before I answer all your numerous questions, maybe you could answer the ones I posted previously which you haven't responded to yet.

What about you, do you live a perfect, sinless life?

What about the apostles and believers through history? Can you give examples of any who lived a sinless life?

Paul who was certainly saved wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit his struggle with the flesh and the Spirit and I think the scriptures show that it is the condition believers deal until we are home with the Lord.

For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
Romans 7:15-25

 

[Phantasman]

We should all work on that every chance we get.



You have two things going on here at once, there is being born again which is salvation and there is the baptism of the Holy Spirit which equips for service. In the days of Moses the 70 elders where baptized in the Holy Spirit:

Then the Lord came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the Spirit that was upon him, and put it upon the seventy Ancient men: and when the Spirit rested upon them, then they prophesied, and did not cease. (Numbers 11:25)
​

Then there were Bezalel and Aholiab:

Whom I have filled with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all workmanship: (Exodus 31:3)
​

Salvation on the other hand is when the Holy Spirit makes us a new creature in Christ:

In whom also ye have trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, even the Gospel of your salvation, wherein also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with the holy Spirit of promise, (Ephesians 1:13)
​

We can't really know what went on in the heart of believers in the Old Testament. We do know that true repentance and saving faith only come through the washing and renewing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit. We know they received the word, some fell away and never came to saving faith, some responded in faith and bore fruit. The key here is saving faith and we have plenty of examples of that from the OT.

Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who foretold the grace that would come to you, searched and investigated carefully, trying to determine the time and setting to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. (1 Peter 1:10-11)
​

Notice the Spirit was in them. The revelation was greatly expanded in the New Testament witness, there is no question about that. But the sanctification of the Holy Spirit with regards to salvation came through in the OT as faith and repentance. True faith and repentance, righteousness and sanctification have always been a work of the Holy Spirit in the heart of the believer. They may not have called it being born again but the essential process remains unchanged, righteousness is by grace through faith. The righteousness of God in Christ can come only from God since it's based on his divine attributes. Producing those qualities in the heart of the believer is the sole responsibility of the Holy Spirit, always has been.

Grace and peace,
Mark

To me the (water) baptism is the recognizing of the spirit given us and seeking a life based on it's teachings over the ways of the flesh we were taught from birth. No water is needed for this to happen, as it is a spiritual promise.

When the mind has understood the spiritual teachings and committed it's heart them, the Holy Ghost becomes the Mother that we are sons of the Father. It's what made Jesus a Christ. The Chrism.

 

[Adzinfi]

He says His sheep do. That's the point.

Your playing games.
Lets get to brass nails..
A person becomes a born again Christian .walking in and following the holy spirit.
Forsaking all sin as the spirit makes it known to them and not returning it.(sanctification) then for whatever event or reason they enjoy a sin (maybe porn or drugs or alcohol or money) they don't deal with it and cease.
They continue in it.it grows and gets worse. They make excuse and begin to reason it away they have moved into self deception .still they continue to practice that sin even though they know it IS sin .Now they are in a perpetual willful state of rebellion.
Then Suddenly one day the Lord returns ..in a day when they expect Not.and there they are laying with thier neighbors wife...
I assure you.they will not be saved no matter they began on that road to life and believed .no matter they continued to attend church heal the sick cast out devils. They left that path of truth when they chose to continue in thier sin and they self justified doing so with I was doctrines.
They will not be saved And you will never ever convince me otherwise.

Now to be fair..you might argue.they never were saved. And I would agree.
And that is frightening because it suggests most of the western styles church is also not saved.
So each of us should take account .trembling.and search out hearts whether we are IN the faith.

Because if we continue in the practice of sin .we are not yet saved.
We have not yet forsaken “our own way” and set out to follow JESUS.

 

[Lizzie18]

For what it's worth. I need to know I'm saved. I can't go through each day not knowing from one moment to the next if I am going to heaven or not. If you are born physically, whatever kind of life you lead, you exist. You cannot be unborn. I believe the same applies spiritually. If you have been born again, whatever kind of life you lead, you exist spiritually. You cannot be unborn. If you are actively modelling your life on Christ, you will mature and change. If not, you won't. God does not break his promises. Each day is full of new opportunities that we take or ignore. Thank God for repentance and forgiveness. Thank God that there is nothing that we can do to make Him love us more than He already does, or not do that will make Him judge us because Jesus has already done all that is needed. All we have to do is believe in Him and put Him first in our day to day lives. We can keep coming back to Him because there is NO CONDEMNATION for those in Christ Jesus. God forgives and forgives and forgives. Jesus has paid the price, we just need to hold on to His promises.

 

[mark kennedy]

To me the (water) baptism is the recognizing of the spirit given us and seeking a life based on it's teachings over the ways of the flesh we were taught from birth. No water is needed for this to happen, as it is a spiritual promise.

When the mind has understood the spiritual teachings and committed it's heart them, the Holy Ghost becomes the Mother that we are sons of the Father. It's what made Jesus a Christ. The Chrism.

Ok now your talking about three things; water baptism, the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the heart of believers. I don't really mind referring to the Holy Spirit as our mother but Jesus called him the Comforter.

 

[Adzinfi]

For what it's worth. I need to know I'm saved. I can't go through each day not knowing from one moment to the next if I am going to heaven or not. If you are born physically, whatever kind of life you lead, you exist. You cannot be unborn. I believe the same applies spiritually. If you have been born again, whatever kind of life you lead, you exist spiritually. You cannot be unborn. If you are actively modelling your life on Christ, you will mature and change. If not, you won't. God does not break his promises. Each day is full of new opportunities that we take or ignore. Thank God for repentance and forgiveness. Thank God that there is nothing that we can do to make Him love us more than He already does, or not do that will make Him judge us because Jesus has already done all that is needed. All we have to do is believe in Him and put Him first in our day to day lives. We can keep coming back to Him because there is NO CONDEMNATION for those in Christ Jesus. God forgives and forgives and forgives. Jesus has paid the price, we just need to hold on to His promises.

You need to quote whole texts ...to whom is there no condemnation...finish the sentance

 

[Adzinfi]

Mother...just quit the blasphemy before we become to deceived to do so.

Ok now your talking about three things; water baptism, the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the heart of believers. I don't really mind referring to the Holy Spirit as our mother but Jesus called him the Comforter.