One of the most controversial issues, is the DAY OF WORSHIP

[Strong in Him]

I understand where you comming from, but the bible always counts days as starting at sundown, not at 00. so its really about consistency.

That's because the Jews count their days differently and their calendar is different.
I'm not Jewish; I'm in the West. You say "Saturday" to anyone here, and it's from midnight on Friday for 24 hours.

I asked the question because, in the past, people have argued with me about the Sabbath. Aside from Jesus having fulfilled all, and our Sabbath rest is in him, no one has yet said what keeping the Sabbath means. As I said, I don't work and I worship every day - what else is there?

 

[Undercover_mormon]

I said what I said because sabbatarians seem to believe that the ten commandments are not a part of the covenant given to the Israelites at Sinai, despite that scripture clearly states that they are part of that specific covenant. They are not two different covenants. There were no sabbath laws given to the Israelites (or anyone else) in scripture before the Sinai covenant was made.

I remember quite well God blessing and setting the 7th day appart in .. what was it? Genesis 2 think it was... also i distinctly remember Moses asking pharoah to let the people go to rest and worship... and i remember God telling israel first and foremost, back in the dessert, before any other law, thay they had to go and pick up mana 6 days, and not during the 7th...

 

[Undercover_mormon]

Yep, even the sabbatarians are in violation of old covenant sabbath law, even when they vehemently claim to be keeping it, but I guess as long as you go to church on Saturday instead of Sunday, it somehow cancels out the need to bother with any of those other details, and then you can rationalize away any other requirements with an argument that our culture is different now.

Or we as new covenant Christians can put our trust in Christ rather than in lawkeeping.

you seemed to ignore my comment about colossian where the fact is that its talking about fasting and eating meat offered to idols

Also, do you kill anyone who lies? or who commits adultery? do you kill anyone who says god doesnt exist? because all of those things carried a death sentence. We dont do that because christ forgave all of that, but as paul said, "Should we continue in sin so grace may abound? by no means!"

also.. yeah, everyone i know that keeps the sabbath does buy or sell, devotes themselves to God and Good deeds like helping others, etc. exactly what Jesus prescribed for the sabbath.

and again, do you murder, commit adultery or dishonor your mother or father? cause those were right next to the only commandment that said "Remember" .... hu... almost like if God knew we would forget..

And nevermind the fact that the apostles taught and kept the sabbath, almost every singe congregation kept the sabbath during the first 3 centuries... up until Rome made a decree and so did the catholic church

 

[Strong in Him]

You receive Christ into your heart, acknowledge him as your Lord and Savior, and put your full trust in him and allow the Holy Spirit to work internally to transform you from your old self into your new self in Christ. This is how you keep the sabbath as a new covenant Christian. If you are in Christ, you are not in disobedience or transgression of any old covenant laws, including the seventh day sabbath. New covenant sabbath-keeping isn't about observing any day of the week, but about a person, that person being Jesus Christ. Jesus is who gives us rest, and it is Jesus who needs to be central to our faith, not lawkeeping. If anyone attempts to tell you that we are saved by keeping the sabbath or any law or by anything else that we *do*, even in a roundabout way while claiming otherwise, then it is false. Jesus is our *only* salvation and we are saved by his grace alone.

Thanks for that.

I have never believed we are saved by keeping the Sabbath. I do think it good that we set aside one day for family, rest, meditation etc. This is for OUR benefit, and is, imo, what Jesus said when he said that the Sabbath was made for man.

I asked the question because some have been adamant that I should keep the Sabbath but not been able to tell me - as a non worker - how to do that. One day set aside to worship/think about God is not good enough; we should live in, for, and worship, him every day.
Otherwise it leads to Sunday Christians - people who will listen to the Bible and pray in church but wouldn't dream of doing it during the week. I've met some of them.

 

[bekkilyn]

Except Paul addressed people asceticism which claimed that everything physical, including the sabbath was wrong, and tought that its not so.
Except Jesus pointed that even Gentiles ought to keep the sabbath in matthew 24:20
Except the early church kept the sabbath

Jesus is our sabbath rest in the sense that he lifts our burdens, he takes away our need for priests and sacrifices.
No one says you are being saved by keeping the sabbath just like you arent saved by not comminting adultery, yet both laws come from the same set of 10, and i think we both agree that just because we arent saved by not commiting adultery, doesnt mean we can now disreagard that and commit adultery right away...

Matthew 24:20 has nothing to do with Gentiles keeping the sabbath. He wasn't even talking to Gentiles at the time, but to his (Jewish) disciples.

There is no statement from Jesus or any other anywhere in the new testament that specifically commands Gentiles (or non-Jewish Christians) to keep a sabbath day. I've asked for the verse numerous times for over a year now and no one has provided it.

You can't just toss away the laws you don't like to follow. If you are going to be under the yoke of law, then you need to be observing ALL of it, except of course the things that were only allowed in the (destroyed) Temple itself. There are plenty of laws that sabbatarians refuse to follow even if they have nothing to do with the Temple.

 

[Undercover_mormon]

That's because the Jews count their days differently and their calendar is different.
I'm not Jewish; I'm in the West. You say "Saturday" to anyone here, and it's from midnight on Friday for 24 hours.

I asked the question because, in the past, people have argued with me about the Sabbath. Aside from Jesus having fulfilled all, and our Sabbath rest is in him, no one has yet said what keeping the Sabbath means. As I said, I don't work and I worship every day - what else is there?

I understand, but God created time, not us, and his clock has been running since creation...

What else is there? well, not work, no study, devote fully to God, not doing "common" things" but rather Godly ones.. ie instead of watching the new movie that just came out, watch a christian movie, or listen or a sermon... and by "devoting yourself to God" is to fully spend 24hs concentrating in God and rest catching up in bible reading, meditating, some people even fast.... because I doubt that you commit 100% of your time every day to God... else you wouldnt watch a single movie, or you wouldnt go to school, you would never buy or sell anything (why? if you dont work, its not fair to make others work by going to the store, or at least thats the idea, so no trading)

 

[Kaon]

One week, and over 200 posts later, I don't think anyone has actually answered my question, how do I keep the Sabbath - see post #80. The only response I had was, "why don't you work?"
Does this mean that people prefer academic argument to practical advice/support?

You need to ask your Father - I think I said this.

Everyone is going to tell you something from the same canon; your relationship with your Father is unique. But, you don't get an answer if you don't ask HIM, and if your don't have the faith to believe He will tell you the Truth.

Listening to other people without communicating with the Most High God first is a recipe for spiritual disaster. Stop asking us (especially at this point), and ask your Father. A big problem in Christianity is that humans follow humans, not the Most High God. So, ask your Father who loves you, and WAIT on His answer.

I could explain my thoughts with respect to the OP (as I did before in this thread), but nothing will make sense if you aren't supposed to know. Want to know how to follow the Sabbath? Ask your Father.

As far as the Sabbath NOT being a commandment for people who want to be of the Most High God - stop deceiving yourselves and others. Name one place where the Word of God, or the Most High God every change the Sabbath, or made it void.

The exact mechanics of how and why to follow the Sabbath is also in the canonical text, so I would say educate yourself before you foolishly go to your Father without basic understanding.

 

[Undercover_mormon]

Matthew 24:20 has nothing to do with Gentiles keeping the sabbath. He wasn't even talking to Gentiles at the time, but to his (Jewish) disciples.

There is no statement from Jesus or any other anywhere in the new testament that specifically commands Gentiles (or non-Jewish Christians) to keep a sabbath day. I've asked for the verse numerous times for over a year now and no one has provided it.

You can't just toss away the laws you don't like to follow. If you are going to be under the yoke of law, then you need to be observing ALL of it, except of course the things that were only allowed in the (destroyed) Temple itself. There are plenty of laws that sabbatarians refuse to follow even if they have nothing to do with the Temple.

Jerusalem at that time was a roaring city, filled with gentiles and jews and in very few places you'd find a purely jewish group of people. of course in the temple or in some circle. yet, Jesus was followed not only by the twelve, but also a big group of followers both jewish and gentiles.
Also, in verse 15, it alludes to everyone in Judea, and shortly after, makes the mention of pray that your flight might not be during the sabbath... if the sabbath isnt meant to be kept by all, it wouldnt be a problem, after all, it would be a regular day by ad71, however Jesus doesnt make this distinction, but he firmly says that taking flight during a sabbath would be bad... and again, the flight refers to ALL IN JUDEA and says this to his followers, a group known to be comprised of gentiles and jews (and this was one of the facts why pharisees hated Jesus, as he didnt keep to jews only)

 

[Kaon]

If you don't work your Sabbath should be focused on the Father and spiritual enrichment.

You also don't have to fear electricity or cooking, cleaning, etc. The Sabbath was made for MAN, not man slaves to the Sabbath.

 

[bekkilyn]

you seemed to ignore my comment about colossian where the fact is that its talking about fasting and eating meat offered to idols

Also, do you kill anyone who lies? or who commits adultery? do you kill anyone who says god doesnt exist? because all of those things carried a death sentence. We dont do that because christ forgave all of that, but as paul said, "Should we continue in sin so grace may abound? by no means!"

also.. yeah, everyone i know that keeps the sabbath does buy or sell, devotes themselves to God and Good deeds like helping others, etc. exactly what Jesus prescribed for the sabbath.

and again, do you murder, commit adultery or dishonor your mother or father? cause those were right next to the only commandment that said "Remember" .... hu... almost like if God knew we would forget..

And nevermind the fact that the apostles taught and kept the sabbath, almost every singe congregation kept the sabbath during the first 3 centuries... up until Rome made a decree and so did the catholic church

A new covenant Christian is led by the Holy Spirit, not by observing old covenant laws. Is the Holy Spirit going to lead you to murder someone?

Also, historically, first century non-Jewish Christians assembled in each others homes for fellowship and worship on the first day of the week, not on the Jewish sabbath. As the religious institutions became more structured, they started going to "church" on that day as well.

 

[Undercover_mormon]

Thanks for that.

I have never believed we are saved by keeping the Sabbath. I do think it good that we set aside one day for family, rest, meditation etc. This is for OUR benefit, and is, imo, what Jesus said when he said that the Sabbath was made for man.

I asked the question because some have been adamant that I should keep the Sabbath but not been able to tell me - as a non worker - how to do that. One day set aside to worship/think about God is not good enough; we should live in, for, and worship, him every day.
Otherwise it leads to Sunday Christians - people who will listen to the Bible and pray in church but wouldn't dream of doing it during the week. I've met some of them.

Saturday is simply a special day when you pay extra atenttion. I used the metaphor of a family dinner. even if you spent all day talking to your family, a family dinner is not a place to be listening to music, or be taking on your phone or worried about work, but rather a place to enjoy community and rest, to tell your family about whats on your mind, rest from everything, enjoy a methaphorical good meal

If you don't work your Sabbath should be focused on the Father and spiritual enrichment.

You also don't have to fear electricity or cooking, cleaning, etc. The Sabbath was made for MAN, not man slaves to the Sabbath.

i agree, but i do reserve cleaning for ourside the sabbath and cooking too if i can avoid it, else you can fall to using the sabbath do do a deep clean (after all, its a free day..) and spend the day or a good portion of it cleaning. Rather, I like to use friday to clean, or sunday if i cant do it on friday and enjoy the sabbath as a day of rest, not to spend it cleaning or cooking.

and yes, regarding electrity.... yeah, thats legalism. Jews like to say that pressing any button or using electronics breaks the sabbath, but thats man made laws and its becomming a slave to it.

 

[bekkilyn]

Jerusalem at that time was a roaring city, filled with gentiles and jews and in very few places you'd find a purely jewish group of people. of course in the temple or in some circle. yet, Jesus was followed not only by the twelve, but also a big group of followers both jewish and gentiles.
Also, in verse 15, it alludes to everyone in Judea, and shortly after, makes the mention of pray that your flight might not be during the sabbath... if the sabbath isnt meant to be kept by all, it wouldnt be a problem, after all, it would be a regular day by ad71, however Jesus doesnt make this distinction, but he firmly says that taking flight during a sabbath would be bad... and again, the flight refers to ALL IN JUDEA and says this to his followers, a group known to be comprised of gentiles and jews (and this was one of the facts why pharisees hated Jesus, as he didnt keep to jews only)

Gentiles wouldn't need to worry about traveling on the sabbath because they didn't observe it and were never under the Mosaic covenant. They've never had to worry about it unless they were resident aliens in Israel when ruled by an Israelite king rather than Rome or some other empire. They also had no worry over the Temple being destroyed because they've never had any religious obligation there. Invading army comes, no conflict of interest about leaving on any day of the week.

 

[Undercover_mormon]

A new covenant Christian is led by the Holy Spirit, not by observing old covenant laws. Is the Holy Spirit going to lead you to murder someone?

Also, historically, first century non-Jewish Christians assembled in each others homes for fellowship and worship on the first day of the week, not on the Jewish sabbath. As the religious institutions became more structured, they started going to "church" on that day as well.

um no.... historically the gathering occurred during the sabbath, while its true the bible mentions reunions during the first day, its also important to mention that the apostles and many followers lived together, so really a dinner together would be pretty common, not a worship service...

Why do you consider Murder evil, but not sabbath breaking?
I derive my morals from God, not from cultural aspects, and whereas i still find murder worse than working on a saturday, i still know that its as much of a sin, since all sins are equal to God.

If you start deriving your morals from culture, then, premarital sex becomes ok, and so abortions and many other things

and if you derive your morals from the bible, breaking the sabbath is no less sinful than lying or adultery

 

[Undercover_mormon]

Gentiles wouldn't need to worry about traveling on the sabbath because they didn't observe it and were never under the Mosaic covenant. They've never had to worry about it unless they were resident aliens in Israel when ruled by an Israelite king rather than Rome or some other empire. They also had no worry over the Temple being destroyed because they've never had any religious obligation there. Invading army comes, no conflict of interest about leaving on any day of the week.

all good... why then Jesus says that EVERYONE on Judea should flee, and pray that that flight might not be during the sabbath?
again, i let the bible inform my worldview, not the other way. Jesus talks about all of judea, not only the Jews

 

[Undercover_mormon]

Gentiles wouldn't need to worry about traveling on the sabbath because they didn't observe it and were never under the Mosaic covenant. They've never had to worry about it unless they were resident aliens in Israel when ruled by an Israelite king rather than Rome or some other empire. They also had no worry over the Temple being destroyed because they've never had any religious obligation there. Invading army comes, no conflict of interest about leaving on any day of the week.

furthermore, if you go to any archive, you'll find that the catholic church, by its on power moved the sabbath, and recognizes that nowhere in scripture it says we should not keep the sabbath... and why are you even against it? its a day of rest, ordained as such by God in the very creation, and that it has been a mark of God's people


oh... almsot forgot, note how everyone living in israel kept the sabbath, not only jews? i dont recall God ordering non jews to give sacrifice, or to go to the temple, rather, the sabbath rule says that everyone, man or animal, jew or foreigner that its in your land, shall keep the sabbath, and the bible says that even in heaven the sabbath remains as a focal point of the week

 

[klutedavid]

Great, so they started keeping sunday at laodicea...

What you said is incorrect. The church did not start keeping Sunday at Laodicea, the church enacted a law enforcing Sunday gathering. The church was already gathering on Sunday for more than two centuries, and before the council of Laodicea (363 AD)

still havent counter that Jesus directly alludes to sabbath rest and worship for a mixed crowd and in the future after his death and resurrection...

Jesus was sent only to the Jews, Jesus never addressed the Gentiles or the Gentile nations.

secondly, sunday observance started to happen yes as a way to separate christians from jews, but also as a cultural thing, after emperor constantine passed the following law:

Emperor Constantine gave the Roman Empire a day off on Sunday. This really has nothing to do with the gathering and celebrating on Sunday by Christians.

Church history informs us that Sunday was celebrated way before Constantine. You cannot make claims about church history, that are not supported by church history.

supporting my claim also,

in the Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine
, we read:​

Q. Which is the Sabbath day?
A. Saturday is the Sabbath day.

Q. Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea, (AD 336) transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday….

Not this quotation again, you folk are all using the same textbook.

For the record, the council of Laodicea was not attended by the church in Rome.

Also the idea that "The pope didnt attend, so it has nothing to do with the catholic church" is bollocks.

There was not officially a 'Roman pope' until the end of the fifth century. Your confusing the universal church (catholic), with the Roman Catholic Church. They are very distinct historical entities.

The council was a gathering of ministers, bishops and other leaders from asia minor, which were catholic.

Members of the universal church which all the Christian churches today are members. Not to be confused with the Roman Catholic Church, which is in Rome.

The transition begun with constatine, and quickly the Roman Catholic church adopted this day by its own authority, and protestants have since followed that wrong doctrine

Not true and not supported by the historical record. We know from church history that Sunday observance, was in place two centuries before Emperor Constantine.

So trying to make this hard distinction not only lead to us protestants accepting part of the Catholic church's authority, but also it lead us to deny the bible

Sunday observance was practiced way before the council of Laodicea and before Emperor Constantine.

 

[klutedavid]

You mean like footwashing (do you do this?):

I think you mean serving others in humility.

Here are some commandments from the text.

1 John 3:23
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ.

John 13:34
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

1 Thessalonians 4:2-3
For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality.

1 Thessalonians 4:10-11
But we urge you, brethren, to excel still more, and to make it your ambition to lead a quiet life and attend to your own business and work with your hands, just as we commanded you.

2 Thessalonians 3:6
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you received from us.

1 Timothy 6:11-14
But flee from these things, you man of God, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance and gentleness. Fight the good fight of faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate, that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Thou shall love your brothers and thou shall also love your enemies.

Thou shall pray for those who persecute you.

Thou shall turn the other cheek when required.

Thou shall make no vows by heaven or earth.

Thou shall only divorce on the basis of unchastity.

Thou shall not marry a divorced women if her husband is still alive, that is adultery.

Thou shall not lust in your thought life, that is fornication.

Thou shall reconcile with your brother before presenting an offering at the altar.

Thou shall not call someone a fool.

Thou shall acquire a righteousness that exceeds the righteousness of the Pharisees.

Thou shall endure to the end, always believing in Jesus.

Thou shall not get drunk.

Thou shall not speak poorly about others, thou will be judged by your words.

Thou shall not blaspheme the Holy Spirit, that sin will never be forgiven.

Thou shall be humble.

Thou shall bind the strong man.

Thou shall not scatter, thou will in fact gather with me.

Thou shall shine your light before men.

Thou shall not worry about tomorrow.

Thou shall not worry about your own life.

Thou shall not serve money and God.

Thou shall not store treasure on earth, thou shall store treasure in heaven.

Thou shall not wear a gloomy face when fasting.

Thou shall forgive others otherwise thou will not be forgiven.

Thou shall not use repetition in prayer.

Thou shall pray in secret, in the inner room.

Thou shall not sound a trumpet when giving to the poor.

Thou shall not practise righteousness before men.

Thou shall not judge others lest thou be judged by that same measure.

Thou shall not give what is holy to the dogs.

Thou shall love as Jesus has loved you.

Thou shall focus on things above and not on earthly things.

Thou shall place others first at all times.

Thou shall rejoice at all times.

Thou shall be thankful at all times.

Thou shall seek the greater gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Thou shall not forbid prophecy.

Thou shall be Holy as your heavenly Father is Holy.

Thou shall enter through the narrow gate.

Thou shall beware the false prophet.

Thou shall do the will of the Father.
Thou shall act on these words of mine.
Thou shall follow me and allow the dead to bury their own dead.
Thou shall not pour new wine into old wineskins.
Thou shall beseech the Lord to send workers into the harvest.
Thou shall bless others and not curse others.
Thou shall pray in the Spirit always.
Thou shall be baptized in water for forgiveness.
Thou shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit.
Thou shall not work for earthly bread but thou will work for the heavenly bread.
Thou shall give, and it will be given to you.

What do you understand the "new covenant" to be?

A covenant centered on Jesus Christ, His blood for the forgiveness of sins. The goal of the shadow law, i.e., love; is written into our hearts by the Holy Spirit.

 

[klutedavid]

you seemed to ignore my comment about colossian where the fact is that its talking about fasting and eating meat offered to idols

Also, do you kill anyone who lies? or who commits adultery? do you kill anyone who says god doesnt exist? because all of those things carried a death sentence. We dont do that because christ forgave all of that, but as paul said, "Should we continue in sin so grace may abound? by no means!"

also.. yeah, everyone i know that keeps the sabbath does buy or sell, devotes themselves to God and Good deeds like helping others, etc. exactly what Jesus prescribed for the sabbath.

and again, do you murder, commit adultery or dishonor your mother or father? cause those were right next to the only commandment that said "Remember" .... hu... almost like if God knew we would forget..

And nevermind the fact that the apostles taught and kept the sabbath, almost every singe congregation kept the sabbath during the first 3 centuries... up until Rome made a decree and so did the catholic church

Your claim is not supported by the historical record.

 

[klutedavid]

all good... why then Jesus says that EVERYONE on Judea should flee, and pray that that flight might not be during the sabbath?
again, i let the bible inform my worldview, not the other way. Jesus talks about all of judea, not only the Jews

If you are talking about Rome then you are talking about Romans. If you are talking about the USA, then you are referring to Americans.

Should you be talking about Judea, then you are talking about Jews.

Jesus was talking to the Jewish apostles when He was discussing the desolation of the temple.

Jesus was sent only to the Jews!

 

[Kaon]

i agree, but i do reserve cleaning for ourside the sabbath and cooking too if i can avoid it, else you can fall to using the sabbath do do a deep clean (after all, its a free day..) and spend the day or a good portion of it cleaning. Rather, I like to use friday to clean, or sunday if i cant do it on friday and enjoy the sabbath as a day of rest, not to spend it cleaning or cooking.

Perhaps you also believe that [Son of] Man is lord of the Sabbath.

The Sabbath itself is so much more profound that it get credit for. It really is an incredible commandment that is for our benefit.