One Jesus, two testimonies?

[Ohioprof]

Calvinism , etc, is not a debate about what sin is.

Doctrinally, almost all of the main stream denominations agree on what sin is, and those that don't agree are suffering serious losses in membership.

No news just doesn't get people intereseted in Christianity.

There has been a longstanding debate between Calvinists and Arminians about the nature of sin, though the debate was more often focused on the question of how one is saved.

 

[kiwimac]

To my Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

We have two opposing testimonies regarding spiritual life in Christ, but only one of them can be true. There is only one Christ – not two of them, and only one standard for Christian conduct – not two standards.

We have a group of gay-affirmers that testifies to the benefits of same-sex-sodomy in their own Christian lives. Few deny that it is carnality. Their testimony requires no personal change in their lives. Satan is in the business of doing nothing.

Then on the opposite side, we have ex-gays that give us a very disturbing testimony regarding same-sex-sodomy addictions that were destroying them spiritually. Some ex-gays are now pastors of churches. On this forum, some told us about the terrible things this tragic addiction did to them. After leaving same-sex-sodomy, their lives were restored and many are married to the opposite sex. Their personal testimonies show miraculous changes in their lives. God is in the business of doing miracles.

There CAN NOT BE two standards of moral conduct where one is carnal and the other is not. There can not be two God’s where one does nothing, and the other works miracles. There can not be two testimonies where one says gay is ok, and the other says it spiritually destroys them personally.

These two testimonies are incompatible. So which testimony about Jesus are we supposed to believe?

I think the answer is obvious from the results: sin destroys, but Christ came to give us life more abundantly. We should help those that want to live without addictions in their lives.

What Christian brother or sister would offer recovering alcoholics another drink of booze or recovering drug addicts another shot of heroin?

What Christian brother or sister would offer recovering sex-addicts the empty promise of a “loving monogamous gay relationship” to entice them back to the things that were destroying them spiritually?

Only in your opinion. Homosexuality is not destructive of folk, it is not an addiction like alcohol or heroin and finally because YOU believe there can be only one witness, does not make it so.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Ohioprof

There has been a longstanding debate between Calvinists and Arminians about the nature of sin, though the debate was more often focused on the question of how one is saved.

But you arent a Calvinist or an Armenian are you?

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Kiwimac

Only in your opinion. Homosexuality is not destructive of folk, it is not an addiction like alcohol or heroin and finally because YOU believe there can be only one witness, does not make it so.

But thats just in your opinion, others believe there being only one witness does make it so.
We believe Jesus Christ is the truth, the absolute truth and anything we do that leads to eternal death is of course destructive. And of course we believe that sexual immorality both same-sex and opposite sex outside marriage is a potential barrier.

 

[Ohioprof]

Your argument is irrelevant to our Christian brothers and sisters that fight same-sex addictions.

They left those addictions to live for Jesus Christ as a witness and a personal testimony to Him.

Your arguments do not help them recover from their hurts. Rather you and other gay-affirmers make matters worse for them.

Gay-affirmers can not tolerate an ex-gay christian. They are singled out for persecution by hate-mongers like Wayne Besen's ex-gay watch.

Then we have "so-called" Christian brothers and sisters that do the same thing to ex-gays, and look like devils.

Ex-gays make tremendous personal sacrifices to serve God the best they can. Their offerings are highly commendable. They have given far more of themselves than most Christians.

How can a Christian brother or sister criticize them and entice them back to sin? This is incompatible within Christianity, and one side will have to go. I support my brothers and sisters in Christ that are fighting to overcome sexual addictions.

You have gone back and edited this post, and so I am responding to your newly edited version.

My response, which you call irrelevant, was to a direct question that you asked. You asked me whether I know any gay people who had been with one partner for life. I said yes, and you asked me how old they are. I answered, and then you called my post irrelevant. If it's irrelevant, why did you ask me the questions? I was just answering questions you raised.

As for people who have "same-sex addictions," I do not know any such people, and I know hundreds of gay people. I imagine there are people with sex addictions, both gay and heterosexual, but I don't know them. You claim that "gay affirmers cannot tolerate them." I have never said anything intolerant about people who have sex addictions, nor have I said anything intolerant about people who go to so-called "ex-gay" ministries or "ex-gay" therapists. Indeed, I feel great compassion for them, because I think they are probably being scammed by the people who create and run these "ministries." But as I have said before, it's up to other people to decide what to do with their lives. I don't care if someone chooses to try to change his or her sexual orientation. I would never do that, but if other people want to try, good luck with that.

 

[Ohioprof]

Dear Kiwimac
But thats just in your opinion, others believe there being only one witness does make it so.
We believe Jesus Christ is the truth, the absolute truth and anything we do that leads to eternal death is of course destructive. And of course we believe that sexual immorality both same-sex and opposite sex outside marriage is a potential barrier.

Jesus never said that being gay would lead to eternal death. That's just you projecting your anti-gay beliefs onto Jesus. And who is this "we" you refer to? You speak for yourself, don't you?

 

[Ohioprof]

Dear Ohioprof
But you arent a Calvinist or an Armenian are you?

No, and the term is Arminian, from Jacob Arminius. However, it is interesting that Unitarianism in North America developed directly from Puritianism, which was Calvinist. The Puritan faith evolved to be more liberal, and it broke into a Unitarian branch in and around Boston and a Trinitarian branch centered in western New England. So the Unitarian part of my UU faith is descended from a Calvinist sect.

 

[Ohioprof]

Dear Ohioprof,
I think he meant our Jesus, not yours[/I]

The Jesus I try to follow is the same Jesus you try to follow, my friend.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Ohioprof,

Jesus never said that being gay would lead to eternal death.

I agree, and neither did I say that.

That's just you projecting your anti-gay beliefs onto Jesus.

As I didn’t say that I am obviously doing nothing of the sort. But its appears you believe Jesus is anti-gay. How do you tally that when Jesus died for all sinners? Do you mean you don’t like Jesus because you prefer same-sex sex?

And who is this "we" you refer to? You speak for yourself, don't you?

No I speak for all of us who believe the Bible as God’s word, I speak for millions on this topic.
You haven’t really addressed my comments. Dont you at least agree that eternal death is destructive?

 

[Ohioprof]

Dear Kiwimac,

Jesus never said that being gay would lead to eternal death.

I agree, and neither did I say that.

As I didn’t say that I am obviously doing nothing of the sort. But its appears you believe Jesus is anti-gay. How do you tally that when Jesus died for all sinners? Do you mean you don’t like Jesus because you prefer same-sex sex?
No I speak for all of us who believe the Bible as God’s word, I speak for millions on this topic.
You haven’t really addressed my comments. Dont you at least agree that eternal death is destructive?

Aren't you mixing up your responses?

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Ohioprof,

No

So if you are neither and Mercyburst doesnt think ist about that, why mention it?

As Mercyburst said

Doctrinally, almost all of the main stream denominations agree on what sin is, and those that don't agree are suffering serious losses in membership.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Ohioprof,

Aren't you mixing up your responses

yes thanks.. I have corrected and made the note.
So

Jesus never said that being gay would lead to eternal death.

I agree, and neither did I say that.

That's just you projecting your anti-gay beliefs onto Jesus.

As I didn’t say that I am obviously doing nothing of the sort. But its appears you believe Jesus is anti-gay. How do you tally that when Jesus died for all sinners? Do you mean you don’t like Jesus because you prefer same-sex sex?

And who is this "we" you refer to? You speak for yourself, don't you?

No I speak for all of us who believe the Bible as God’s word, I speak for millions on this topic.
You haven’t really addressed my comments.

 

[Phinehas2]

Also I am not anti-gay as I have gay friends, I am pro -Jesus Christ. I am anti-same-sex sex therefore

 

[Ohioprof]

Dear Ohioprof,
So if you are neither and Mercyburst doesnt think ist about that, why mention it?

As Mercyburst said

Someone else mentioned Calvinism, not me. Mercyburst responded by saying that Calvinism did not involve a debate about sin, and I noted that there was a debate about sin between Calvinists and Arminians.

It is not true that nearly all Christians agree or have agreed about what is sin. Christians today do not agree about whether same-sex relations are sin. Christians in the 19th century did not agree about whether slavery was a sin. Disagreement over what is sin has been part of what fueled the emergence of different Christian sects.

 

[Ohioprof]

Also I am not anti-gay as I have gay friends, I am pro -Jesus Christ. I am anti-same-sex sex therefore

Anti-same-sex sex is, to my mind, the same as anti-gay. But if you want to draw a distinction to make yourself feel okay about your views of us, that's up to you.

I don't particularly understand why you are obsessed with same-sex sex, since it doesn't involve you or have anything to do with you. Why worry about it? If you don't believe in same-sex sex, then don't have same-sex sex. It's that simple.

It's amazing to me how many anti-gay Christians claim to have gay friends. They always manage to say, "Some of my best friends are...."

 

[Ohioprof]

Dear Ohioprof,
yes thanks.. I have corrected and made the note.
So
I agree, and neither did I say that.
As I didn’t say that I am obviously doing nothing of the sort. But its appears you believe Jesus is anti-gay. How do you tally that when Jesus died for all sinners? Do you mean you don’t like Jesus because you prefer same-sex sex?
No I speak for all of us who believe the Bible as God’s word, I speak for millions on this topic.
You haven’t really addressed my comments.

Please stop twisting my words. You know I did not say that Jesus was anti-gay. Jesus, as far as we know, never said anthing about gay people or about our love relationships.

To presume to speak for millions is, well, a little presumptuous, don't you think?

I speak only for myself, not for millions or even for a handful. My posts are mine alone.

 

[Ohioprof]

Phinny,

Please correct me if I somehow misunderstood you. Are you saying that same-sex relations do not lead to eternal death? In response to kiwimac's post that same-sex relations are not destructive, you wrote the following: "We believe Jesus Christ is the truth, the absolute truth and anything we do that leads to eternal death is of course destructive."

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Ohioprof,

Anti-same-sex sex is, to my mind, the same as anti-gay. But if you want to draw a distinction to make yourself feel okay about your views of us, that's up to you.

Well I do because otherwise its nonsense becuase if someone asks me who I am, I dont say I am a opposite sex desire. Yes I am a person who has sexual desires for the opposite sex.

I don't particularly understand why you are obsessed with same-sex sex, since it doesn't involve you or have anything to do with you.

I am not obbsessed with same sex sex, I am however seeking to be more obsessed with following Jesus Christ. Same-sex sex is just another sin, but it is being premoted here... hence my subsequent involvement.

Why worry about it? If you don't believe in same-sex sex, then don't have same-sex sex. It's that simple.

Yes I fully agree with you, but you are claiming its ok as a Christian view and thats not acceptable to me.

It's amazing to me how many anti-gay Christians claim to have gay friends.

It is not amazing at all if you understood the difference beteen people and sin and if you believed the Bible.

 

[Ohioprof]

Dear Ohioprof,
Well I do because otherwise its nonsense becuase if someone asks me who I am, I dont say I am a opposite sex desire. Yes I am a person who has sexual desires for the opposite sex.

I am not obbsessed with same sex sex, I am however seeking to be more obsessed with following Jesus Christ. Same-sex sex is just another sin, but it is being premoted here... hence my subsequent involvement.
Yes I fully agree with you, but you are claiming its ok as a Christian view and thats not acceptable to me.

It is not amazing at all if you understood the difference beteen people and sin and if you believed the Bible.

If you say you oppose same-sex sex, I honestly don't care. You are free to like or dislike whatever expressions of sexuality you want, and that is not my business.

I do care when you say that a person can't be Christian and be gay, or that a person can't be Christian and support same-sex marriage. I think that's trying to exclude people from the faith on the basis of a particular interpretation of the Bible, and not all Christians agree with that interpretation or with that notion of what being a Christian means. If there is in fact a broad consensus about what it means to be a Christian, and I don't think there is, then being opposed to gay relationships is certainly NOT part of that broad consensus.

 

[Ohioprof]

Dear Ohioprof,
Well I do because otherwise its nonsense becuase if someone asks me who I am, I dont say I am a opposite sex desire. Yes I am a person who has sexual desires for the opposite sex.

I am not obbsessed with same sex sex, I am however seeking to be more obsessed with following Jesus Christ. Same-sex sex is just another sin, but it is being premoted here... hence my subsequent involvement.
Yes I fully agree with you, but you are claiming its ok as a Christian view and thats not acceptable to me.

It is not amazing at all if you understood the difference beteen people and sin and if you believed the Bible.

Telling gay people that our love relationships are sin is NOT an expression of love for gay people. It's a verbal attack on gay people. It's not kindness; it's simply piling on and denigrating a group of people because you happen to disagree with us or dislike us for some reason.

Preaching at me that gay love relationships are "sin" is not going to get me to embrace your particular version of Christianity. Do you wonder why so many gay people turn away from the Christian churches that preach an anti-gay message? It should be obvious. Why would we want to embrace a group of people who denigrate our marriages, who attack our love relationships as "sin," and who tell us that being who we are is sinning?