One Jesus, two testimonies?

[Ohioprof]

Ohioprof is not a sister (believer) in Christ according to her own statements:

http://foru.ms/showpost.php?p=40302477&postcount=174

She is a unitarian.

This thread is about testimony IN Jesus Christ and spirituality IN Jesus Christ. The OP makes this VERY CLEAR.

Obviously Ohioprof is in the wrong place and really has no insight to share regarding the OP.

Using her own statements "This is really none of her business."

Hence, I suggest you ignore her RUDE and UNCIVIL attempts to derail this thread, and proceed with the OP, as originally stated.

Folks, I think we have an obvious case of thread-hijacking on our hands here.

I have said that I am a Christian. I am a Unitarian Universalist Christian. I am a sister in Christ.

My responding to your negative statements about gay people is NOT an attempt to hijack the forum. It's an effort to speak as a gay Christian to what you and others say about gay people. I encourage you to listen to what real gay people say about our lives and refrain from calling us names and from slandering us.

 

[Ohioprof]

But we have a large group of ex-gay Christians that disagree with you Brieuse. Don't they have a right to live their lives for Jesus Christ without your contradictions? Here is a discussion forum where they are in recovery:

Yahoo Group ex-Gay Recovery

You are not allowed to debate there because there is no debate -- these people are hurting. Read it for yourself.



I've heard so many times from gays on this forum, that repentance is not required (I speak of the kind of repentance that most Christians understand). I'm really very tired of debating the "gay version" of it, and will not continue in weasel word discussions with you or anyone else regarding repentance.

The choice of words "same-sex-sodomy" is strong, but the words "gay", 'homosexual", "lesbian", and "bI-sexual" fail to separate the ACT from the PERSON. I suggest you come up with a better word that eliminates this confusion. I have tried very hard to come up with a better word, and unfortunately I am left with "same-sex-sodomy" as the most accurate terminology.


This thread is about the ACT not the PERSON. Help me come up with words that make this CLEAR and VERY IMPORTANT distinction. Otherwise we have no basis for a meaningful dialogue. Perhaps we can't have a meaningful dialogue anyway. Gay activists deliberately jam communication for their own political gain.



But their testimony doesn't belong to you -- it's between them and God. I could stand here and tell you that you can't live for God as a homosexual (which I do happen to believe, by the way), and I'd be doing the very same thing you are doing regarding the ex-gays. God determines their degree of success not you.

Your claim that 99% don't work still leaves the 1% that does work. One example is all it takes to prove you're argument wrong, and I don't believe God has two different expecations on moral conduct.



Their personal sacrifices are obviously tremendous and highly visible. That's what it took for them to live for Jesus Christ. Being a Christian is a tough road that requires supernatural change. I personally think they already answered to God and made a personal sacrifice that few Christians are willing to make.



What drove them to be ex-gay to start with? Here, once again, you present a God that can't make up His mind. AGAIN, I just don't believe my God has two expectations on Christian conduct.



We are all born in sin, and it needs to change. God did not make it that way, man did. Only God can undo what man has done to himself.

Being gay is not a sin. Nor is loving one's committed life partner.

 

[Ohioprof]

To Mercyburst and to Others,

Maybe we can cool this heated argument down. Obviously we disagree about what Jesus said and what Jesus calls us to do. But we are all Christians, each in our own way, as each of us understands being a Christian.

I am a Christian. I know that some of you don't think I am a Christian, but I am a Unitarian Universalist Christian, with an emphasis on the Universalist Christian, because I believe in universal salvation.

I believe that the message Jesus taught was the message of loving God and loving our neighbors. If Mercy feels that my posts have been rude and uncivil, then I apologize for that and will try to moderate my tone and be less confrontational. Being uncivil is certainly not an effective way to change hearts and minds, and my goal is to speak truth as I understand it, not to offend Mercyburst. However, folks should realize that when they call gay people names and say negative things about our marriages, they hurt real human beings, and that's why they get a negative response back from gay people and from people who love gay people.

I believe that Jesus calls us to love God and our neighbor, and that means our neighbor of whatever sexual orientation or whatever gender identity or whatever background. Gay people are just people. We gay people love our spouses just as heterosexuals love their spouses. We gay people want to live our lives in peace and care for our families just as heterosexuals do. We do not deserve to be attacked as we have been so often, not just by Fred Phelps, but by many people. We do not deserved to be singled out and told that we are going to hell for our sin. We do not deserve to be told that we cannot be Christian if we are ourselves, which is gay.

 

[savedandhappy1]

Being gay is not a failure. Loving one's committed life partner is not a failure either.

Lets see my post was in response to it being said that those who say that they are not gay, because of the Lord, is a lie because supposedly 99% go back to homosexuality.

So they are said to have failed.

So I posted scriptures that assure us that with the Lord we can all face and win over temptations/sins, through and with Him.

It is so interesting how some of those who don't believe homosexuality is a sin, and scream bigotry and hatred, appear to be doing the very thing they claim is being done to them to those who say they are healed.

When someone says they are healed of their sins by the Lord, they are called liars, hypocrites, etc., by people that don't know them or are even around them to be able to discern the truth or not from what they are saying.

There are scriptures that speak of bearing false witness, that comes to mind here but...................................

 

[Ohioprof]

Lets see my post was in response to it being said that those who say that they are not gay, because of the Lord, is a lie because supposedly 99% go back to homosexuality.

So they are said to have failed.

So I posted scriptures that assure us that with the Lord we can all face and win over temptations/sins, through and with Him.

It is so interesting how some of those who don't believe homosexuality is a sin, and scream bigotry and hatred, appear to be doing the very thing they claim is being done to them to those who say they are healed.

When someone says they are healed of their sins by the Lord, they are called liars, hypocrites, etc., by people that don't know them or are even around them to be able to discern the truth or not from what they are saying.

There are scriptures that speak of bearing false witness, that comes to mind here but...................................

I would not call anyone a liar or a hypocrite for how they live their lives. I don't even say that about Larry Craig, who I think was wrongly entrapped by the police. I think that if someone wants to try to stop being gay, that is up to them. Good luck with that. I don't think they are likely to succeed, based on everything I have read, but I would not criticize them for making that kind of choice, as it's their life, not mine.

 

[MercyBurst]

I have been discussing what you write. If you write something about gay people, I'm going to respond to it, since you are writing about a group I belong to.

From the OP, there are two groups of people that struggle with the carnal issue of same-sex-attraction.

One group says they had to crucify their flesh to serve Christ, and the other group says they must fulfil the flesh to serve Christ.

There is no way that both positions can be right.

One side says it was destroying them as Christians, and that fact ALONE requires my support as a brother in Christ. It doesn't matter whether or not it is sin (even though I believe it is sin).

Paul said he would abstain from meat offered to idols to keep his brother from falling into the temptation of idolatry, though he did not think it was a sin to eat meat offered to idols.

I think this is only reasonable and fair for a Brother or Sister in Christ to regard those who are struggling, and respect their effort instead of gunning them down.

I have said that I am a Christian. I am a Unitarian Universalist Christian. I am a sister in Christ.

Universalism means that you don't accept ANY creed as authoritative, including the Nicene Creed, which is our required code. I just don't see how universalism passes here at For-U. We might as well say Islam passes for Christianity.

My responding to your negative statements about gay people is NOT an attempt to hijack the forum. It's an effort to speak as a gay Christian to what you and others say about gay people. I encourage you to listen to what real gay people say about our lives and refrain from calling us names and from slandering us.

Is the word "same-sex-sodomy" the word that offends you?

Being gay is not a sin. Nor is loving one's committed life partner.

AGAIN, you have ex-gays that disagree. They said they had to leave same-sex-yadda-yadda (geez how do I explain this without saying it?) to live for Christ. How can both of you be right? Are there two Jesuses around here?

also somebody is going to come along and say: see there he just condemned same-sex attraction. What huh you mean gay? Yeah uhh-huuh same-sex attraction is homosexual. see there yep. same thing. If you are tempted you sinned -- see there. Temptation is sin, gEEEZ GOLLY BOB DID I really say that!!!!! I'm so sick of this stupid confusion that I could puke. NO! NO! NO! Temptation IS NOT SIN. geeez.

To Mercyburst and to Others,

Maybe we can cool this heated argument down. Obviously we disagree about what Jesus said and what Jesus calls us to do. But we are all Christians, each in our own way, as each of us understands being a Christian.

I am a Christian. I know that some of you don't think I am a Christian, but I am a Unitarian Universalist Christian, with an emphasis on the Universalist Christian, because I believe in universal salvation.

Universal salvation means there is no need at all for Jesus. He might as well have satyed in heaven instead of dieing on a cross. What is the point?

I believe that the message Jesus taught was the message of loving God and loving our neighbors. If Mercy feels that my posts have been rude and uncivil, then I apologize for that and will try to moderate my tone and be less confrontational. Being uncivil is certainly not an effective way to change hearts and minds, and my goal is to speak truth as I understand it, not to offend Mercyburst. However, folks should realize that when they call gay people names

What names? Give me a name that separates the act of same-sexsodomy from the "gay" whatever person that may or may not commit that act.

Labels just confuse people. I'm not using them.

and say negative things about our marriages, they hurt real human beings, and that's why they get a negative response back from gay people and from people who love gay people.

And teh ex-gays that are trying to live their klives for Christ, do you think it helps them to go dangling this carrot in front of them. They ARE your brothers and Sisters in Christ. Why in God's name would you do this to them?

I believe that Jesus calls us to love God and our neighbor, and that means our neighbor of whatever sexual orientation or whatever gender identity or whatever background.

So how does it help ex-gays when you persecute them?

Gay people are just people. We gay people love our spouses just as heterosexuals love their spouses. We gay people want to live our lives in peace and care for our families just as heterosexuals do.

Then go ahead and do that. But could you please have a little sympathy for others that do not believe the way you do, and they are trying their best to live for Christ. Why do you want to hurt them in order to justify yourself? This just doesn't seem like the Chrisitian thing to do.

Why do you even have to justify yourself at all if you are so confident you are living for Christ? This is absurd. Are you just trying to impress people.

We do not deserve to be attacked as we have been so often, not just by Fred Phelps, but by many people. We do not deserved to be singled out and told that we are going to hell for our sin. We do not deserve to be told that we cannot be Christian if we are ourselves, which is gay.

Jesus said take up your cross and follow me. Many people have died for that cause. If you are truly a follower of Jesus Christ, you can expect hardship, but you want the easy way.

 

[Ohioprof]

From the OP, there are two groups of people that struggle with the carnal issue of same-sex-attraction.

One group says they had to crucify it to serve Christ, and the other says they must fulfil it to serve Christ.

There is no way that both positions can be right.

One side says it was destroying them as Christians, and that fact ALONE requires my support as a brother in Christ. It doesn't matter whether or not it is sin (even though I believe it is sin).

As Paul said, he would abstain from meat offered to idols, to keep his brother from falling into the temptation of idolatry.

I think this is only reasonable and fair for a Brother or Sister in Christ to regard those who are struggling, and respect their effort instead of gunning them down.



Universalism means that you don't accept ANY creed as authoritative including the Nicene Creed, which is our required code. I just don't see how universalism passes here at For-U. We might as well say Islam passes for Christianity.



You have not addressed the OP, which means you are calling Jesus two-faced in my opinion.



AGAIN, you have ex-gays that disagree. They said they had to leave it to live for Christ. How can both of you be right? Are there two Jesuses around here?



Universal salvation means there is no need at all for Jesus. He might as well have satyed in heaven instead of dieing on a cross. What is the point?



What names? Give me a name that separates the act of same-sexsodomy from the "gay" whatever person that may or may not commit that act.

Labels just confuse people. I'm not using them.



And teh ex-gays that are trying to live their klives for Christ, do you think it helps them to go dangling this carrot in front of them. They ARE your brothers and Sisters in Christ. Why in God's name would you do this to them?



So how does it help ex-gays when you persecute them?




Then go ahead and do that. But could you please have a little sympathy for others that do not believe the way you do, and they are trying their best to live for Christ. Why do you want to hurt them in order to justify yourself? This just doesn't seem like the Chrisitian thing to do.

Why do you even have to justify yourself at all if you are so confident you are living for Christ? This is absurd. Are you just trying to impress people.



Jesus said take up your cross and follow me. Many people have died for that cause. If you are truly a follower of Jesus Christ, you can expect hardship, but you want the easy way.

I am trying to introduce the voice of a real gay person into these forums, so that people hear what we have to say about our own lives. I am one of a number of gay Christians who post here, and our experiences matter. I hear people making statements about our lives, based only on their interpretation of the Bible. But we are the gay people they are talking about, and we know more about our lives than other people do, and we have much insight to contribute from our real lives.

I want people to hear what we experience, and thus get beyond the stereotypes and myths about us. I am here in part to educate people about the lives of gay people and to encourage Christians to accept us as we are. I am also here to listen to other Christians discuss and debate the issues that surround the lives of us gay people, to hear and understand where other people are coming from.

I have never been unsympathetic to those who try to turn themselves into "ex-gays." I don't think it's possible, but I would never criticize those who try it. I do criticize those who peddle so-called "ex-gay therapy" for their own profit, because I think this industry is a scam, and the people who promote this are expoiting the pain of those who go to them for "therapy." But I would never attack or be inconsiderate of those who try to make this change. It's their life, and what they do with it is up to them. It's not for me to criticize their choices.

As for whether one of us is right, I think people are all different, and what is right for me is not necessarily right for someone else. It's not right for me to try to turn myself into a heterosexual, which seems pointless and impossible anyway. I make no judgment of what other people do with or about their own sexuality.

 

[Ohioprof]

From the OP, there are two groups of people that struggle with the carnal issue of same-sex-attraction.

One group says they had to crucify their flesh to serve Christ, and the other group says they must fulfil the flesh to serve Christ.

There is no way that both positions can be right.

One side says it was destroying them as Christians, and that fact ALONE requires my support as a brother in Christ. It doesn't matter whether or not it is sin (even though I believe it is sin).

Paul said he would abstain from meat offered to idols to keep his brother from falling into the temptation of idolatry, though he did not think it was a sin to eat meat offered to idols.

I think this is only reasonable and fair for a Brother or Sister in Christ to regard those who are struggling, and respect their effort instead of gunning them down.



Universalism means that you don't accept ANY creed as authoritative, including the Nicene Creed, which is our required code. I just don't see how universalism passes here at For-U. We might as well say Islam passes for Christianity.



Is the word "same-sex-sodomy" the word that offends you?



AGAIN, you have ex-gays that disagree. They said they had to leave same-sex-yadda-yadda (geez how do I explain this without saying it?) to live for Christ. How can both of you be right? Are there two Jesuses around here?

also somebody is going to come along and say: see there he just condemned same-sex attraction. What huh you mean gay? Yeah uhh-huuh same-sex attraction is homosexual. see there yep. same thing. If you are tempted you sinned -- see there. Temptation is sin, gEEEZ GOLLY BOB DID I really say that!!!!! I'm so sick of this stupid confusion that I could puke. NO! NO! NO! Temptation IS NOT SIN. geeez.



Universal salvation means there is no need at all for Jesus. He might as well have satyed in heaven instead of dieing on a cross. What is the point?



What names? Give me a name that separates the act of same-sexsodomy from the "gay" whatever person that may or may not commit that act.

Labels just confuse people. I'm not using them.



And teh ex-gays that are trying to live their klives for Christ, do you think it helps them to go dangling this carrot in front of them. They ARE your brothers and Sisters in Christ. Why in God's name would you do this to them?



So how does it help ex-gays when you persecute them?




Then go ahead and do that. But could you please have a little sympathy for others that do not believe the way you do, and they are trying their best to live for Christ. Why do you want to hurt them in order to justify yourself? This just doesn't seem like the Chrisitian thing to do.

Why do you even have to justify yourself at all if you are so confident you are living for Christ? This is absurd. Are you just trying to impress people.



Jesus said take up your cross and follow me. Many people have died for that cause. If you are truly a follower of Jesus Christ, you can expect hardship, but you want the easy way.

Oh, on the subject of Universalism, the Universalists originally did not reject all creeds, though Unitarian Universalism today is a non-doctrinal faith. Universalists differed and still differ from many other Christians in that we believe in universal salvation. Universalism is a variety of Christian faith.

 

[MercyBurst]

I am trying to introduce the voice of a real gay person into these forums, so that people hear what we have to say about our own lives. I am one of a number of gay Christians who post here, and our experiences matter. I hear people making statements about our lives, based only on their interpretation of the Bible. But we are the gay people they are talking about, and we know more about our lives than other people do, and we have much insight to contribute from our real lives.

I want people to hear what we experience, and thus get beyond the stereotypes and myths about us. I am here in part to educate people about the lives of gay people and to encourage Christians to accept us as we are. I am also here to listen to other Christians discuss and debate the issues that surround the lives of us gay people, to hear and understand where other people are coming from.

I have never been unsympathetic to those who try to turn themselves into "ex-gays." I don't think it's possible, but I would never criticize those who try it. I do criticize those who peddle so-called "ex-gay therapy" for their own profit, because I think this industry is a scam, and the people who promote this are expoiting the pain of those who go to them for "therapy." But I would never attack or be inconsiderate of those who try to make this change. It's their life, and what they do with it is up to them. It's not for me to criticize their choices.

As for whether one of us is right, I think people are all different, and what is right for me is not necessarily right for someone else. It's not right for me to try to turn myself into a heterosexual, which seems pointless and impossible anyway. I make no judgment of what other people do with or about their own sexuality.

One Jesus tells people that same-sex-sodomy is destroying their spiritual lives.

Another Jesus says same-sex-sodomy doesn't hurt a thing.

Doesn't this bother you just a little?

I'm sorry, but I can't accept it.

 

[Ohioprof]

One Jesus tells people that same-sex-sodomy is destroying their spiritual lives.

Another Jesus says same-sex-sodomy doesn't hurt a thing.

Doesn't this bother you just a little?

I'm sorry, but I can't accept it.

I don't think Jesus said either. I have seen no evidence that Jesus ever made a comment about intimate same-sex relationships.

Does it bother me that different Christians hold distinctly different views of how God regards same-sex relationships? Well, not really. I don't think there is one way to be a Christian. I am dismayed that some people continue to denigrate our love relationships and refer to them as "sodomy." I will continue to speak out on behalf of gay people and against people's attacks on us. But ultimately, people must decide for themselves what they believe, and they are certainly free to disagree with me. I accept that.

 

[tulc]

The OP of this thread is addressed to Brothers and Sisters in Christ. I ignore all other discussion.

...so you decide who is or isn't your brother and sister in the Lord?
tulc(glad He decides who's saved, not us)

 

[dayhiker]

One Jesus tells people that same-sex-sodomy is destroying their spiritual lives.

Another Jesus says same-sex-sodomy doesn't hurt a thing.

Doesn't this bother you just a little?

I'm sorry, but I can't accept it.

It used to bother me that that different people thought Jesus was saying different words. But then I had to say all the Calvinist aren't Christians. I had to say all the emminate return of Christ people weren't hearing Jesus vioce. I had to say everyone today isn't a Christian because we believe so differently than the Christians believed just a couple hundred years ago. I had to say that all those who diagreed with Paul that Paul didn't speak against aren't Christians even tho Paul didn't say that.

When I meet these Christians that see our faith differently than I do I still sense the Holy Spirit in them. So if the Holy Spirit is there, who am I do say otherwise.

dayhiker

 

[MercyBurst]

I don't think Jesus said either. I have seen no evidence that Jesus ever made a comment about intimate same-sex relationships.

Jesus said He came so we could have life more abundantly.

On the one hand (according to ex-gays) same-sex-sodomy kills spiritual life, and on the other hand (according to gay-affirmers) it brings spiritual life.

So is Jesus an authority on spiritual life, or do we all just kid ourselves?

We CAN KNOW we have spiritual life, thanks to Jesus. But you're telling us we can't know the difference between what's killing us and what's saving us.

Jesus can not give life UNLESS a believer receives it, and He can not both give life and kill it.

So tell me Ohioprof, who is receiving life, and who isn't? You can't have it both ways.

Jesus tells us:

John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly

The thief destroys, and ex-gays tell us that same-sex-sodomy was destroying them. The thief brought them same-sex-sodomy to destroy them. Jesus brought them life, Or will you argue this the other way around. Who has the right to do that?

Does it bother me that different Christians hold distinctly different views of how God regards same-sex relationships? Well, not really.

That's not the point. The point is that the two views are incompatible within the same religion. You might not think so, but Christians that believe same-sex is sin agree the two views ARE incompatible within Christianity.

I don't think there is one way to be a Christian.

Christ is the only way to be a Christian. Any other view is a spiritual contradiction, and Christ did not have to die on a cross. There can not be two or more Jesus's but you imply that there are.

There was no need for Jesus if you are right.

I am dismayed that some people continue to denigrate our love relationships and refer to them as "sodomy."

Then you need to come up with a better word that describes the sexual act. I don't want to use pictures.

I will continue to speak out on behalf of gay people and against people's attacks on us. But ultimately, people must decide for themselves what they believe, and they are certainly free to disagree with me. I accept that.

And I speak on behalf of Christian testimony. How can there be two opposing Christian testimonies? Does God lie to Himself? Is Jesus both a life giver and a life destroyer? I don't think so.

 

[MercyBurst]

It used to bother me that that different people thought Jesus was saying different words. But then I had to say all the Calvinist aren't Christians. I had to say all the emminate return of Christ people weren't hearing Jesus vioce. I had to say everyone today isn't a Christian because we believe so differently than the Christians believed just a couple hundred years ago. I had to say that all those who diagreed with Paul that Paul didn't speak against aren't Christians even tho Paul didn't say that.

When I meet these Christians that see our faith differently than I do I still sense the Holy Spirit in them. So if the Holy Spirit is there, who am I do say otherwise.

dayhiker

Calvinism , etc, is not a debate about what sin is.

Doctrinally, almost all of the main stream denominations agree on what sin is, and those that don't agree are suffering serious losses in membership.

No news just doesn't get people intereseted in Christianity.

 

[GenemZ]

I have never slandered Jesus, and I never will.

John 8:11b (New International Version)
""Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."
​

Notice... He was not condemning the person. Yet? He did condemn something other than the person.




.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear tulc,

...so you decide who is or isn't your brother and sister in the Lord?

I think all who follow Jesus teaching have to discern who is in line with Jesus teaching and who isnt.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Ohioprof,

I don't think Jesus said either. I have seen no evidence that Jesus ever made a comment about intimate same-sex relationships.

I think he meant our Jesus, not yours

 

[GenemZ]

Doctrinally, almost all of the main stream denominations agree on what sin is, and those that don't agree are suffering serious losses in membership.

Disagreeing on what is sin, places Christians in positions of vulnerability against resisting powers of darkness. Powers that want men to conform to their own lifestyle and to glorify it. They seek self justification by promoting in men actions and styles of sin that the wish to prove can bring happiness. They defy God's grace, and wish to establish their own happiness. They keep trying to perfect it. That is why the rationales and justifications have shifted over the years. Yet, God's Word has never changed.

Ephesians 6:12 (New International Version)
"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."




.
​

 

[Ohioprof]

John 8:11b (New International Version)
""Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."
​

Notice... He was not condemning the person. Yet? He did condemn something other than the person.




.

Being gay is not a sin. Nor is loving one's committed life spouse.

 

[Ohioprof]

Disagreeing on what is sin, places Christians in positions of vulnerability against resisting powers of darkness. Powers that want men to conform to their own lifestyle and to glorify it. They seek self justification by promoting in men actions and styles of sin that the wish to prove can bring happiness. They defy God's grace, and wish to establish their own happiness. They keep trying to perfect it. That is why the rationales and justifications have shifted over the years. Yet, God's Word has never changed.

Ephesians 6:12 (New International Version)
"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."




.
​

I think that disagreeing about what sin is means that people are thinking. That's a good thing. Thinking means that people are not blindly following a particular creed, but carefully considering what they believe. They may come to different conclusions from other Christians, and that's not a bad thing.