One horrendous doctrine

[squint]

I do no such thing and repeated accusations will not change that, You accuse me falsely without any knowledge of what I truly believe. I identify myself as a Calvinist, and you think that therefore, I MUST believe whatever false impression you have of Calvinism. And you claim you're not judging me? Bullwinky!

Then tell me if your "Calvinist Position" at least makes the "possibility" that God will save all mankind. That should settle the issue eh?

You have babbled on about nonsensical universalist views of which several have been conclusively shown to be misinterpretation and ignorance of context.

Specific criteria is the mother of legitimate critique.

There is no need to waste my time with a know-it-all.

Calling someone names would appear to be good exegesis? Why bother?

Ah, here we go.....squint has "special knowledge"...."knowledge not generally known"....the very definition of Gnosticism. Thank you for clearing that up.

I have claimed no "special knowledge" except from your lips to mine, which of course speaks for only your lips from your lips.

Will not the Lord of all the Earth do right? They are His problem, not mine. And, they are really no problem for Him, either. He has already said what He will do.

Who is "they?"

My measure is what God's Word specifically says about the fate of all who do not obey the Gospel, or glorify God as God, or believe on His Name. And it was people He was talking about.

Perhaps you can make a case that "some other person" never loved, did righteousness or good, but if they did, I have a very fair "scriptural measure" that says they know God and are born of same, and I really doubt that there is anyone who has not loved, done righteousness, or good.

Except Calvinists....

Calvinism is a compilation of ideas, not "mankind." I don't mix doctrines with those who hold same.

Metaphysical mumbo-jumbo. Was that a "crystal revelation"?

Read and respond with specifics if you want to take issue. I claim the ability to read and comprehend plain speaking from scripture.

And yet, you've offended every Calvinist here with your falsehoods and false accusations....go figure.

That is only what "you" think you hear. I can certainly take issue with a position quite apart from the person. I happen to love people even if they are democrat and I am republican. Get it?

And we have shown you that Paul did not say that all mankind are God's offspring,

I really didn't SEE where that statement from Paul was eliminated from the scriptures yet, so you have shown ZERO as it pertains to the elimination of Paul's statements other than the desire to make them go away.

and that Jesus specifically said that those who do not believe are of their father the devil. Jesus was not talking to demons, He was talking to human beings, just like you and me.

I happen to believe that Jesus was actually speaking to those whom he said, children of the devil, who you may aptly note were often chided, commanded, and even cast out of MANKIND. If you do not see that what do you really expect me to say? I can read. He also called those same ones in so obviously there is more going on here than what you are able to see or even less to accept. What is that to me?

In other words, I must 'buy in" to the thinking before I dare find fault? Sorry, I don't pollute my mind with gnostic myths.

Gnostic is again, only your term attempting to paste itself to my lips. When I say a clear statement such as Paul's statement that "all mankind are Gods offspring" it does not make me "gnostic" and it does not take "special revelation" to read and comprehend that statement, nor is it "revelation" to accept that statement, and to believe what those words say, regardless of what you may think about it.

You have no trouble criticizing Calvinism, even though you haven't "bought into" it. Your requirement is bogus, because you don't practice it yourself.

I gave specific scriptural critique and exception to Calvin's positions. That specific criteria can be addressed specifically if you like, or you can simply rail at yourself. Makes no diff to me. Legitimate critique I can respond to. The other I can't or won't cause it's just you against yourself.

And yet you have done nothing but condemn Calvinists since you showed up with your "special knowledge". So I daresay, I do have a point.

Only in your mind.

Men love darkness rather than the light. That is not something within them that is not them, that is the way they are born. MEN love Darkness rather than light.

Depends on "which men" we are talking about. Even "Lucifer" was called "a man" in text, and of course I don't consider that Lucifer was a man, but the devil. Sometimes these terms get tossed around a little loosely. Angels can also be termed "men." The terms "angel, or men" are multifunctional terms that apply several ways. Scripture 101

As for your statement, "The "practice" of Irresistible Grace is upon you", I have no idea what you mean. Is that like "the eyes of the Ranger are upon you"?

Calvinist's have a term called Irresistible Grace, but of course they don't really apply it that way except in limited fashions.

It is more mumbo-jumbo, as far as I'm concerned.

Universalism was and still is heresy, according to the Early Church and numerous Councils and Synods. Historically, you haven't got a leg to stand on.

Like I said before, even the Catholics accept the possibility of after death salvation, and that cannot be termed therefore "heretical" or "unorthodox" as it doesn't get more "orthodox" than they.

enjoy!

squint

 

[DArceri]

• "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. 14"For the gate is small, andthe way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it," (Matt. 7:13-14).
• "For many are called, but few are chosen," (Matt. 22:14).
• "And He was passing through from one city and village to another, teaching, and proceeding on His way to Jerusalem. 23And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" And He said to them, 24"Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25"Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ 26"Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; 27and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; depart from Me, all you evildoers,'" (Luke 13:22-27).
• "And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved; 28for the Lord will execute His word upon the earth, thoroughly and quickly," (Rom. 9:27).

Squint, these verses are plain and clear. Not all are saved; in fact, few are.

SQUINT.....Scripture says to FEAR God? If "all are saved" like you say, why should anyone fear Him? Satan is cunning. Satan wants the destruction of all people. Satan wants people to die in their sins. He is utter hatred and complete evil. He is fooling you Squint and you are falling for it. He says to all who want an easy ticket, "Don't worry about receiving Jesus now. We are all His children, He will never hurt His children." Then when people die, they find out it is too late. Squint, by preaching to people not to worry for "we are all His children and we are all saved", you are undermining God's own words to fear Him!!!! Doesn't that bother you Squint? Didn't God teach that the door is narrow and few will enter it?

 

[DArceri]

Universalism teaches that all people will eventually be saved through the atonement of Christ because of grace yet they ignore any conditions of being a recipient of the atonement. John the apostle writes in his gospel 1:11-12 “but as many as receive him, to them he gave the right (power) to become children of God, to those who believe on his name.” If one does not receive him they are not children of God.

The idea that salvation is by grace without faith is their fatal misunderstanding- it is through faith.

 

[Renton405]

So, is God having trouble with that? Are all men being saved? Are any perishing? Is the Lord God, Creator of heaven and Earth, unable to bring about that which He desires?

Of course it grieves God that people go to Hell. But it would trouble the Lord more if he forced people to heaven or to hell! God says in the bible that he is grieved by many things, he is grieved that some of the jews worshipped idols and Molech, does that mean he is gonna force everyone to follow Judaism so he isn't as grieved?

And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. - Genesis 6.5-6

The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.
Genesis 6:5-7

Based on your analogy, because God is grieved that he made people that means he would destory every single one to make him not grieve anymore. I notice we are still here though...hmmmm


"I am grieved that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions." Samuel was troubled, and he cried out to the LORD all that night.
1 Samuel 15:10-12

Well God is grieved that he made Saul. But does Saul exist?? hmmmm. Do you see how flawed this analogy is?

Your are equating God with a dictator now..

Did the Lord desire for Adam and Eve to fall in the Garden? Did the Lord desire for Satan to fall and create a War in Heaven? Your saying God desired these things?

If you were burning in hell in horrible agony for all eternity and saw God looking over you saying "Well sorry man, but you weren't the elect, so I put you here for a greater good because of my elect" how would you feel exactly? Would you feel that is a Just God or a dictator??

 

[squint]

Universalism teaches that all people will eventually be saved through the atonement of Christ because of grace yet they ignore any conditions of being a recipient of the atonement. John the apostle writes in his gospel 1:11-12 “but as many as receive him, to them he gave the right (power) to become children of God, to those who believe on his name.” If one does not receive him they are not children of God.

The idea that salvation is by grace without faith is their fatal misunderstanding- it is through faith.

Grace is a one way street darceri. Him to All.

Romans 8:
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

 

[squint]

• "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. 14"For the gate is small, andthe way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it," (Matt. 7:13-14).
• "For many are called, but few are chosen," (Matt. 22:14).
• "And He was passing through from one city and village to another, teaching, and proceeding on His way to Jerusalem. 23And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" And He said to them, 24"Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25"Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ 26"Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; 27and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; depart from Me, all you evildoers,'" (Luke 13:22-27).
• "And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved; 28for the Lord will execute His word upon the earth, thoroughly and quickly," (Rom. 9:27).

Squint, these verses are plain and clear. Not all are saved; in fact, few are.

Paul said that ALL OF ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED, even those who were "made" enemies of the Gospel. Romans 11, so we obvious have Paul's summary of that scripture set above resulting in the salvation of even "enemies" of the Gospel who have long since passed away from the flesh.

SQUINT.....Satan wants the destruction of all people.

And "who" then "promotes" that view?

Satan wants people to die in their sins.

And "who" "then" promotes that view?

He is utter hatred and complete evil. He is fooling you Squint and you are falling for it.

I don't promote "satan's" intentions darceri.

He says to all who want an easy ticket,

Who says it's easy to "love" in this present world? Look at the animosity that "any" christian universalist receives.

There is a "world" and "occupants" of that "world" that utterly "hate" mankind, and that world is the world of the devil and his messengers.

I am not "satan's" ally, and "satan" will be utterly destroyed from OFF Gods offspring, and of course where are they found, but in the flesh?

"Don't worry about receiving Jesus now.

Jesus is assuredly "not" against loving ones neighbors as themselves. Those who "do such" know God and are born of God, for God IS Love.

We are all His children, He will never hurt His children." Then when people die, they find out it is too late.

Sorry darceri. The eternal burning of Gods offspring is presented "nowhere" in the scriptures, and ALL mankind are taught by the scriptures to be "Gods offspring."

Squint, by preaching to people not to worry

Who has said, not worry? I resist satan daily. Others should as well, and that resistance is born in LOVE to our fellow man, not the false promotion of their eternal torture. That is "how" we resist "evil" remember?

Luke 6:27
But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you

for "we are all His children and we are all saved", you are undermining God's own words to fear Him!!!!

Godly fear is "reverential awe" of His Greatness, not as fear for our own hides.

1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

Doesn't that bother you Squint? Didn't God teach that the door is narrow and few will enter it?

I feel sorry for people who think God is going to fry their loved ones and their friends, and maybe even themselves. That is why I post.

It also really irritates the devil, which I also like to do.

enjoy!

squint

 

[squint]

Universalism teaches that all people will eventually be saved through the atonement of Christ because of grace yet they ignore any conditions of being a recipient of the atonement. John the apostle writes in his gospel 1:11-12 “but as many as receive him, to them he gave the right (power) to become children of God, to those who believe on his name.” If one does not receive him they are not children of God.

The idea that salvation is by grace without faith is their fatal misunderstanding- it is through faith.

The "righteousness of God" is conveyed unto ALL because of "faith of Jesus," darceri, not the faith "OF" mankind:

Romans 3:
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe

And we also know without any uncertainty that same "faith" works by LOVE.

 

[squint]

I have no problem standing to specific scriptural criteria and critique, and have provided many specific observations for the determinist and freewill positions as to why their "positions" "cannot address" a great number of scriptures.
?

Bottom line in these conversations is that there IS assuredly a darkness that is upon us "all" and that is the very contributant that I write of and openly resist, and THAT POWER knows what I am doing in these events. It "resists" God's Unequivocal Love in Jesus Christ unto ALL MANKIND. I blame NO OFFSPRING OF GOD for that working of darkness, but that working of darkness IS in the flesh and minds of ALL MANKIND. THERE is where Jesus DIVIDED and there I see and find HIS LIFE for all mankind, and I also find the "revealing" of that darkness which is openly displayed whenever the Good News is pronounced.

So I say to Gods offspring, examine your own hearts for the truth of these matters of "loving your neighbors as yourself" to see if "you" really "do" as we have been "mutually" commanded by "our" Lord. And if that darkness in them says NO, I say the darkness speaketh in and from that flesh.

When "that darkness speaks from a person" it is NOT THEY as Gods offspring who is speaking, and this is what Jesus has to say to THAT DARKNESS that speaks:

Matthew 7:2
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

When that DARK MEASURE comes, then I say that Jesus said that speaker WILL GET WHAT IT MEASURES without any doubt. You see it is THE DEVIL in the flesh of mankind that will be tossed to the Lake of Fire. And they even KNOW it. But they continue to MOCK GOD in MEN'S FLESH.

That darkness in men who is NOT God offspring hears these Words of Christ, and know these words to be true, and in that "they" become "aroused" unto resistance, to keep their slaves.

And in this way, I KNOW I'm on the "right" path, because of the revealing of RESISTANCE. Any who "join Christ" will know of this resistance, as it SPEAKS OPENLY against our fellow man, almost hissing and writhing at the thought that their present habitations are being "disturbed." And therefore they STRIKE the carriers of the Good News with their vehement hatred.

When Jesus spoke to the GENERATION of VIPERS they KNEW He was speaking to THEM, that GENERATION who have not yet passed away. Those same VIPERS in the PHARISEES are here in the flesh to this day, breeding and multiplying until nearly the entire CHURCHes are filled with "them." Blaming and accusing and counting SINS against our fellow man, when in ACTUALITY it is THEM working IN the flesh and minds OF our fellow man.

This is what Jesus says to ALL MANKIND, His offspring:

John 5:22
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

You see that? God judges "NO MAN." There is one who IS judged, and that is the "prince of this world" the devil, and that "power of darkness" controls the offspring of God in the flesh and mind as a SLAVE MASTER. And it is that same PRINCE of this world whom Gods Word judges and SPEAKS to "them" there in the flesh of mankind.

Jesus does not judge Gods offspring, all MANKIND for those actions of the PRINCE of DARKNESS who is upon them:

John 8:15
Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.


There is not a person of God among you ALL who can DIVIDE this judgment apart from Gods Love to mankind, and you all to the last one will falsely judge your fellow man because of that darkness working in the flesh that controls the minds and hearts of Gods Own People.


I blame NO MAN for that working. I KNOW who is speaking, and it's NOT Gods offspring, all mankind, but the power that all flesh has been placed under and subjected to.

Many "in men" will find FALSE OFFENSE in this DIVISION. We, as Gods offspring should not take offense at the disclosure of Jesus that darkness has been placed upon us all.

Matthew 11:6
And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

The Pharisees took great offense with Jesus, particularly when Jesus spoke to the "children of the devil" IN THEIR FLESH, because they DID NOT UNDERSTAND that that is WHO Jesus was speaking TO.

Those same ones who took offense in those people THEN, will take offense IN the flesh and minds today.


enjoy!

squint

 

[DArceri]

Paul said that ALL OF ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED, even those who were "made" enemies of the Gospel. Romans 11, so we obvious have Paul's summary of that scripture set above resulting in the salvation of even "enemies" of the Gospel who have long since passed away from the flesh.

NOPE. The full gifts given to Isreal is in Chaper 9 of Romans. Paul reminds his readers that the promises of God has never been made to all PHYSICAL DESCENDANTS OF ABRAHAM.

Romans 9:6-9
6 It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."

Squint, THE SPIRITUAL ISRAEL is the chosen ones. Sorry to bust your bubble. Anything Paul writes after this passage is in regards to the SPIRITUAL ISRAEL.

B.T.W. Jews and Gentiles make up the "spiritual Israel", the children of God.

Who says it's easy to "love" in this present world? Look at the animosity that "any" christian universalist receives.

Yes. Universalists take the easy path. Don't you see Squint. You fell into Satan's trap. You have now said to everyone you come into contact with not to worry about being in sin and recieving Christ. He will never condemn us. You are now under Satan's deception. THIS IS FEEL GOOD SALVATION.

There is a "world" and "occupants" of that "world" that utterly "hate" mankind, and that world is the world of the devil and his messengers.

Exactly, the devil has just found a mass of people to take down with him when Christ comes back to judge those who deny Him. SATAN IS CUNNING AND LOVES YOU FOR IT.

I am not "satan's" ally, and "satan" will be utterly destroyed from OFF Gods offspring, and of course where are they found, but in the flesh?

NOPE....Satan has destroyed you and everyone that folows him into the fire.

Jesus is assuredly "not" against loving ones neighbors as themselves. Those who "do such" know God and are born of God, for God IS Love.

God spoke against self-righteous people. As a matter of fact, Jesus spoke more about eternal separation and damnation in His ministry than of heaven. Read all of Matthew with a unbiased opinion and you will be "awakened" to this fact.

Sorry darceri. The eternal burning of Gods offspring is presented "nowhere" in the scriptures, and ALL mankind are taught by the scriptures to be "Gods offspring."

LOL...if you can read Jesus own words in Matthew's Gospel and come away saying all are saved, then Satan has you under his thumb.

Who has said, not worry? I resist satan daily. Others should as well, and that resistance is born in LOVE to our fellow man, not the false promotion of their eternal torture. That is "how" we resist "evil" remember?

ITS NOT ABOUT YOU OR ME. ITS ABOUT GODS GLORY. HOW DOES LETTING SINNERS WHO HAVE NO FATIH AND TRUST IN GOD INTO HIS KINGDOM GLORIFY GOD IN ANYWAY????WAKE UP. God is not only Holy, He is Just. One needs to beleive in Him to be His Child. How can you be so blind. You are possible taking others down with you. That is horrible.

1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

FiRST OF ALL, this passage is speakling to BELIEVERS Squint. You are taking passages that are directed at the Church of God. Stop justifying non-beleivers. Only God can do that.

SECOND OF ALL, look how the passage ends in verse 21:

21 And he has given us this command: Those who love God must also love one another.

He's talking to the Church Squint.

Squint, Your philosophy is "feel good" salvation. Everyone is being led into Satan's pit with this ideology. Give it up before you take down others with this garabage.

 

[squint]

NOPE. The full gifts given to Isreal is in Chaper 9 of Romans. Paul reminds his readers that the promises of God has never been made to all PHYSICAL DESCENDANTS OF ABRAHAM.

Romans 9:6-9
6 It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."

Squint, THE SPIRITUAL ISRAEL is the chosen ones. Sorry to bust your bubble. Anything Paul writes after this passage is in regards to the SPIRITUAL ISRAEL.

I specifically cited Romans 11, which is not eliminated on the basis of Romans chapters prior, but is a culmination of Paul's understanding for "them." Citing in part:

Romans 11:
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

This presentation clearly blows a big hole in the positions of both "determinism" and "freewill" that will NEVER be patched.

B.T.W. Jews and Gentiles make up the "spiritual Israel", the children of God.

There are "proclaimers" of Gods Love expressed to mankind "unconditionally" through Christ our Lord, and that portion in this present earth is very at present, very small. I expect that as The Divine Division of The Great Divider comes nearer, that number will be enlarged in the hearts of Gods children, all mankind, in the preparation of His Bride.

Yes. Universalists take the easy path.

But you see, everywhere Gods Love to mankind is proclaimed, it is met by fierce resistance "in men." For a fact if you are His disciple, you will be hated by "all men" and by "the world." I do not blame that hatred on any of mankind, Gods offspring all, but the darkness that abides in the flesh of all mankind who is NOT THEM as Gods offspring.

IF and when you ever see this in this present life, THEN you will know the facts of "their" hatred, and you will "hear" "them" cry out from your fellow man who are enslaved by that darkness, in "open rebellion," as I hear daily.

Don't you see Squint. You fell into Satan's trap.

God is assuredly NOT against loving our fellow man dear one, and to believe and live in this Love of His to all is far from a "trap" of Satan.

You have now said to everyone you come into contact with not to worry about being in sin and recieving Christ.

I have NEVER made such a statement. That came from a voice in your own head who I will say "is not you."

You are certainly welcome to resist your own presentations, but please do not put those statements in my mouth.

I promote NO SLAVESHIP to SIN or to Gods offspring, all mankind. Quite the opposite.

He will never condemn us. You are now under Satan's deception. THIS IS FEEL GOOD SALVATION.

Again a non-sequitur. I am very much against that which is NOT Love, and also against the DARKNESS in the hearts of mankind who OPPOSE Gods Love.

Exactly, the devil has just found a mass of people to take down with him when Christ comes back to judge those who deny Him. SATAN IS CUNNING AND LOVES YOU FOR IT.

I expect 'certain ones' to call me Satan, just as they did to Jesus. That comes with the territory friend.

NOPE....Satan has destroyed you and everyone that folows him into the fire.

There is no offspring of God, all mankind, who is going to the Lake. That is reserved for the devil and his messengers who abide in the flesh of Gods offspring.

God spoke against self-righteous people.

(muffled laughter)

As a matter of fact, Jesus spoke more about eternal separation and damnation in His ministry than of heaven. Read all of Matthew with a unbiased opinion and you will be "awakened" to this fact.

I believe every eternal torment scripture. Just not for mankind, Gods offspring all.

LOL...if you can read Jesus own words in Matthew's Gospel and come away saying all are saved, then Satan has you under his thumb.

I do believe that Jesus Is Who He Held Himself out to BE, The Saviour of the world, AND I also believe He actually gets the job done. Imagine that?

ITS NOT ABOUT YOU OR ME. ITS ABOUT GODS GLORY. HOW DOES LETTING SINNERS WHO HAVE NO FATIH AND TRUST IN GOD INTO HIS KINGDOM GLORIFY GOD IN ANYWAY????WAKE UP.

2 Corinthians 5:19
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

I am "so" not counting sins against mankind, BUT I do count sins against THE DEVIL who will NEVER be forgiven:

1 John 3:

8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.

Now whether you can "separate" the parties involved here will remain quite irrelevant to me. I know who God in Christ came to SAVE and I know who God in Christ came to DESTROY, and nary these two will be MIXED AND CONFUSED no matter what the devil says.

God is not only Holy, He is Just. One needs to beleive in Him to be His Child. How can you be so blind. You are possible taking others down with you. That is horrible.

I've provided several scriptures that say who knows God and is born of God and why, and also a very BOLD exception to your position in Romans 11. I am under no obligation to throw those scriptures out on the basis of "someone else's" imaginations, thank you.

FiRST OF ALL, this passage is speakling to BELIEVERS Squint. You are taking passages that are directed at the Church of God. Stop justifying non-beleivers. Only God can do that.

Never said otherwise. Our "views" of who knows God and is born of God will remain as John The Apostle stated. "Anyone" who loves, does righteousness, and does good knows God and is born of God. The "salvation" door is open just a tad wider than what you allow. I could put up at least 60 different ways from the scriptures on "how" people are saved besides the ones I have employed in this thread. But we can't seem to agree, even on the simple ones.

SECOND OF ALL, look how the passage ends in verse 21 And he has given us this command: Those who love God must also love one another.

hello.

Squint, Your philosophy is "feel good" salvation. Everyone is being led into Satan's pit with this ideology. Give it up before you take down others with this garabage.

Perhaps you take some delight in Gods supposedly burning people alive forever. I however neither find that presentation in the scriptures as it pertains to a single named person, NOR do I believe such when there are so very obviously more parties to the transaction than "just people."

enjoy!

squint

 

[DArceri]

I specifically cited Romans 11, which is not eliminated on the basis of Romans chapters prior, but is a culmination of Paul's understanding for "them."

LOL... SO YOU just ignore the contextual flow of Paul's message and "cherry pick" what parts that sound or "feel good". Squint, the ONLY THING that is universal is the Gospel itself, ie. it is for everyone who has an "ear". You can either accept the Gospel or reject it... Squint, why would we be called to evangelize if everyone is saved already. Why go through with all the persecution and suffering that comes with getting the Word out? Evangelizing in 'your world' would be a waste of time.

There are "proclaimers" of Gods Love expressed to mankind "unconditionally" through Christ our Lord, and that portion in this present earth is very at present, very small. I expect that as The Divine Division of The Great Divider comes nearer, that number will be enlarged in the hearts of Gods children, all mankind, in the preparation of His Bride.

OHHHH!!! SO "YOU EXPECT"....? That's GREAAATTT. That will comfort all of us. I think I'll put all my hope and faith in you Squint. And if "your expections" are wrong, WHOOPS, OH WELL, I just lose my salvation, that's all.

I promote NO SLAVESHIP to SIN or to Gods offspring, all mankind. Quite the opposite.

Sorry Squint, your religion promotes absolute forgiveness no matter if we love God or hate Him. I might as well steal, cheat, and have sex with any woman I want because it's not me doing it, THE DEVIL MADE ME DO IT. God will save me anyway, right Squint??!!!

Again a non-sequitur. I am very much against that which is NOT Love, and also against the DARKNESS in the hearts of mankind who OPPOSE Gods Love.

NOPE....Its totally a valid point I make about your "religion". Think about the consequences of what you preach Squint. If you are wrong, and you are BTW, then all those you "convinced" about "THE WIDE DOOR" AND THE "FEEL GOOD" preaching you spew out, you are actually dooming. With that kind of "love" people don't need enemies...BTW Squint, I'll give you a tip. It's actually the "NARROW DOOR" like Jesus actually said!!!! Surprise, surprise.

There is no offspring of God, all mankind, who is going to the Lake. That is reserved for the devil and his messengers who abide in the flesh of Gods offspring.

NOPE...."WATERED DOWN" AND "FEEL GOOD" AGAIN SQUINT.

I believe every eternal torment scripture. Just not for mankind, Gods offspring all.

Read Jesus' own words Squint. AGAIN, Jesus preached more about eternal separation and damnation in His ministry than heaven (over 3x as much) .

I do believe that Jesus Is Who He Held Himself out to BE, The Saviour of the world, AND I also believe He actually gets the job done. Imagine that?

Non-sequitur Squint, nobody here has said anything different. All "His children" will be saved.

I am "so" not counting sins against mankind, BUT I do count sins against THE DEVIL who will NEVER be forgiven

OOHHH RRREALLY! So Squint, now you are Jesus?

I've provided several scriptures that say who knows God and is born of God and why, and also a very BOLD exception to your position in Romans 11. I am under no obligation to throw those scriptures out on the basis of "someone else's" imaginations, thank you.

LOL...One more time Squint, you've continually "cherry picked" parts of verses directed at the Church and meant to encourage and unite believers in Christ. I am the only audience you have on this thread Squint, you can stop preaching your false Gospel to me. You may fool others who are unfamiliar with the bible Squint, but you shouldn't be peddling this garbage here and not expect to be called on it..... BTW, you've ignored all of Jesus' parables' in the Gospel. I wonder why? Is it because all the parables give a message that would destroy your "universalistic" idealism?

The "salvation" door is open just a tad wider than what you allow.

"A TAD WIDER"???? Correct me if I'm wrong Squint, but didn't you say all of mankind will be saved, no matter if you accept Jesus or not? WHAT "DOOR" ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

 

[nobdysfool]

Excellent post, darceri! Right on the money! Well done!

 

[Jipsah]

Squint, why would we be called to evangelize if everyone is saved already.

'Maybe 'cause our Lord told us to? I mean, hey, it isn't like God really needs our help, is it? He isn't saying, "If only I can get Jipsah out there flashing his pearly whites and exercising his well-nigh irresistible persuasive skills will people be brought into My kindgom." IMO, God has chosen to allow us to be part of the process by which He brings people into the kingdom. He doesn't need our skillz as salesmen.

I'm not a universalist (I'm a conditionalist/annihilationist, actually), but the "God needs us to help Him" argument always struck me as silly.

 

[Jipsah]

Then tell me if your "Calvinist Position" at least makes the "possibility" that God will save all mankind. That should settle the issue eh?

OK, according to this Calvinist, God will save who He wills. If that means everybody, then it's everybody. Scripture doesn't lead me to believe that, but if it turns that way, terrific.

 

[squint]

LOL... SO YOU just ignore the contextual flow of Paul's message and "cherry pick" what parts that sound or "feel good".

If you're asking me to find condemnation rather than love to my fellow mankind, that speaks for itself.

Squint, the ONLY THING that is universal is the Gospel itself, ie. it is for everyone who has an "ear". You can either accept the Gospel or reject it... Squint,

That will remain as just another way to count sins against mankind, a practice that is not employed in the scriptures.

why would we be called to evangelize if everyone is saved already.

Because "mankind" are slaves, and we feel for those we are to love.

Why go through with all the persecution and suffering that comes with getting the Word out?

What Word? There are so many different Gospels out there today it's not even funny. Now how many of those Gospels actually BRING Gods Love? Very few. Nearly the "only" message that is brought anymore that nearly "all" have in common is ripe condemnation to "join our club" or fry alive. No thank you to that one.

Evangelizing in 'your world' would be a waste of time.

Look, you are merely reflecting what is in you. I see a far different picture. And that is what Gods Word does. It "divides" mankind from "evilkind." But both are reflected along the trail of life in mankind, but both are NOT mankind. If you don't get this what do you expect me to say?

OHHHH!!! SO "YOU EXPECT"....? That's GREAAATTT. That will comfort all of us. I think I'll put all my hope and faith in you Squint. And if "your expections" are wrong, WHOOPS, OH WELL, I just lose my salvation, that's all.

Don't you know that it is the Love of God that leads to "repentance?"

Sorry Squint, your religion promotes absolute forgiveness no matter if we love God or hate Him.

I don't mix the "we's" here d. There is simply "more" going on in the scriptures than just "mankind" and their choices. If you are locked and loaded on man's choice alone, then I'd expect you to follow only that, and that is what you bring. What is that to me? Not much in the way of factoring in either Divine Providence or the working of evil.

I might as well steal, cheat, and have sex with any woman I want because it's not me doing it, THE DEVIL MADE ME DO IT. God will save me anyway, right Squint??!!!

I don't need the threat of eternal punishment dangling over my head to serve God. Those who do are servants under threat, and apart from that we'd quickly see "who" they serve eh?

Besides, your same argument has been used against Grace for centuries, and soundly dispelled. Sins are not counted against mankind. They are counted against the devil. We should not be slaves of the devil, and those who are do such things as slaves. I don't promote slaveship, but His Freedom from sin, as He has expressed in His Word.

NOPE....Its totally a valid point I make about your "religion". Think about the consequences of what you preach Squint. If you are wrong, and you are BTW, then all those you "convinced" about "THE WIDE DOOR" AND THE "FEEL GOOD" preaching you spew out, you are actually dooming.

And those will simply remain a skewered attempt to pin your words into my mouth, as usual. Your spin does not equate and is therefore a non-sequitur meaning it does not connect or follow.

And no matter how good you might think yourself, none of us can say we have no sin, so deal with it.

With that kind of "love" people don't need enemies...BTW Squint, I'll give you a tip. It's actually the "NARROW DOOR" like Jesus actually said!!!! Surprise, surprise.

As prior noted, it would appear that you have found the door that leads to destruction eh? After all that is what YOUR voice brings. Comply or die. Not much different than any common dictator on earth imho.

Read Jesus' own words Squint. AGAIN, Jesus preached more about eternal separation and damnation in His ministry than heaven (over 3x as much) .

I've already confirmed the acceptance of every single eternal damnation scripture. I find your conclusions about these things highly unlikely however for the several specific scriptural reasonings put up and left unattended. typical.

Non-sequitur Squint, nobody here has said anything different. All "His children" will be saved.

But you see, you flat out deny that all mankind ARE Gods offspring as Paul taught. You also flat out deny that "anyone" who loves, does righteounes and good knows God and is born of God as scriptures state. Nothing I can do about that. Not my filter. NOR have you effectively eliminated those Words that state such. If you wanted to show how those words are eliminated, then do so.

OOHHH RRREALLY! So Squint, now you are Jesus?

Obviously Gods love for all mankind is getting your mind quite riled, as you have brought me many false measures. But you see that is what Gods Love for all mankind does to "resistance" in mankind. I don't blame you d. If scriptures have advised that "sins are not counted" against mankind, it does not make me Jesus to believe or practice THAT does it?

LOL...One more time Squint, you've continually "cherry picked" parts of verses directed at the Church and meant to encourage and unite believers in Christ.

I put up several "specific scriptural exceptions" to your presentation. IF you would like to respond to them specifically, have at it. Dodging does not good, nor do illogical disconnected and false proclamations.

I am the only audience you have on this thread Squint, you can stop preaching your false Gospel to me.

Spin it however you like. I doubt there are too many on either side of the fence of determinism or freewillism that want to take on clear exceptions to their positions. And your attempt to make it personal will remain for what it is, only from your lips, and certainly not a reasonably dialoged engagement in showing why those scriptures put up are not true.

You may fool others who are unfamiliar with the bible Squint, but you shouldn't be peddling this garbage here and not expect to be called on it..... BTW, you've ignored all of Jesus' parables' in the Gospel. I wonder why? Is it because all the parables give a message that would destroy your "universalistic" idealism?

Just because I don't view the scriptures through your intended filter does not equate to me ignoring the scriptures. Again a non-sequitur.

"A TAD WIDER"???? Correct me if I'm wrong Squint, but didn't you say all of mankind will be saved, no matter if you accept Jesus or not? WHAT "DOOR" ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

I do not believe that the Love of God is only made sufficient by those who "activate" God. Sorry. Gods Working is Gods, not mankinds. Those who do Love do so as His Reflection, so even in that it is His Love dispensed to us and through us. Any common kindergartner in Sunday school knows this.

enjoy!

squint

 

[squint]

OK, according to this Calvinist, God will save who He wills. If that means everybody, then it's everybody. Scripture doesn't lead me to believe that, but if it turns that way, terrific.

Finally an honest answer.

Jesus Is The Saviour of all mankind and of the world according to the scriptures. It is therefore my right and prayer to accept and expect that as a believer.

And I still accept every eternal torment scripture that will come upon the devil and his messengers who "abide" IN THE FLESH.

squint

 

[squint]

'Maybe 'cause our Lord told us to? I mean, hey, it isn't like God really needs our help, is it? He isn't saying, "If only I can get Jipsah out there flashing his pearly whites and exercising his well-nigh irresistible persuasive skills will people be brought into My kindgom." IMO, God has chosen to allow us to be part of the process by which He brings people into the kingdom. He doesn't need our skillz as salesmen.

I'm not a universalist (I'm a conditionalist/annihilationist, actually), but the "God needs us to help Him" argument always struck me as silly.

ANOTHER honest answer! Wow.

At least someone here is tracking. God is indeed powerful enough to get whatever job He wants done, done. If some are led to work in that direction, then that is Gods Leading, not "ours."

 

[Jipsah]

Of course it grieves God that people go to Hell.

But not enough for Him to intervene on the behalf of any individual, right?

But it would trouble the Lord more if he forced people to heaven or to hell!

Kinda like saying "I hate it that Buford is gonna drown, but far be it from me to force him back to shore. So long Buford." Or "I'm really sad that little Suzy is about to be squashed under the wheels of a Kenworth, but I'm not willing to force the little knothead to play with her dollies and teaset somewhere other than middle of the highway. RIP, Suzy".

If you were burning in hell in horrible agony for all eternity and saw God looking over you saying "Well sorry man, but you weren't the elect, so I put you here for a greater good because of my elect" how would you feel exactly?

Probably about how I'd feel if God said, "Sorry, hoss, but y'all never heard of the Plan of Salvation where you lived, and that was your only chance to be redeemed of your sins and thus avoid being barbecued for all eternity. That's how it goes, though. Tough break for you, but look on the bri.. oh, never mind."

Would you feel that is a Just God or a dictator??

I might say "Hey, God, isn't there anything you coulda done to keep me out of this mess? I wouldn't have treated you this way."

 

[Jipsah]

You do for no uncertain fact condemn your fellow man, whosoever does not conform to your view of the elect.

Nah, our view of the elect doesn't have anything to do with anything. It's God who does the saving, not us. He doesn't ask our opinion in the matter, either.

 

[squint]

Nah, our view of the elect doesn't have anything to do with anything. It's God who does the saving, not us. He doesn't ask our opinion in the matter, either.

There are measures. I have for example provided a scripture set from Romans 11 where "all of Israel" shall be saved, even to those who were "made enemies" of the Gospel by Gods placement of a "spirit of stupor" upon them in OUR behalves, and that would be "post" death salvation. This would be imho at least one clear cut exception to both determinism and freewill positions, unless of course you accept that exception... And there are many many other such exceptions.

In nearly all cases, determinism attempts to "throttle down" the terms "world" and "all men" to only the elect, but of course Paul extends salvation much further, here for example:

1 Tim. 4:
9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.

10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 11 These things command and teach.

Here Paul delineates that God IS the Saviour of all men and distinguishes "them" from the believers.

There are many many more in this direction as well.

enjoy!

squint