One horrendous doctrine

[KEPLER]

Ah, I see. You are operating with an assumption of which I was unaware. That changes things a bit.

Let me ask you, if Scripture describes someone as having been bought by their Lord, would you then describe them as having been (to use your own words), "spiritually placed in Christ"?

Curious...

Kepler

 

[Van]

Hi Jipsah, the ol it doesn't mean what it says it means this other thing is unsound.

Why would I need to prove the Lord changed subjects? He did not change subjects. It is not clear that He did not shift illustrations, folks present at the time in verse 13, folks affected by the false teaching at other times verse 15. Either way, the subject is the impact false teaching has on the lost, hindering them from entering the kingdom. Note Jesus changed illustrations in verse 16, in verse 17, so why not in verse 15. And besides, it is a side issue, non-germane. Whether they are the same men or other men in verse 13 or 15, the men of 13 had heard the word of God and believed in God and were seeking the kingdom of God.

But you saved the best for last, a man with total spiritual inability can seek God, and can be trying to enter the kingdom, not the kingdom of budda, but the kingdom of Yahweh. Is that the doctrine of Total Spiritual Inability advocated by Calvinism? If true, the doctrine should be rewritten, reformed if you will, to state it is the doctrine of limited spiritual ability.

 

[Van]

Hi Kepler, in post #120, I ask you several questions. I paraphrased what I thought was your argument and asked if I was correct. Please answer the question.

Now you have asked me another question, how does being "bought" relate to being "spiritually placed in Christ?"

Being bought refers to the work of Christ on the cross, where Christ became the propitation for the whole world. He paid the price, the ransom, to allow mankind to be reconciled to God. Thus, in a sense, all mankind has been bought, but that did not put anyone in Christ. Whoever believes in Him, who has his or her faith credited as righteousness, in placed in Christ by God. We do not put ourselves in Christ, salvation is a gift by grace through faith.

In Acts 20:28 scripture tells us that the whole church was bought with Christ's blood. This is consistent with the idea that Christ died for the whole world, including the church. 1 John 2:2 puts it this way, Christ became the propitation not only for us (members of the church) but also for the whole world.

And thanks for expressing your views, iron sharpens iron.

 

[Renton405]

Yeah...that horrible, nasty, heretical St. Augustine. What was he thinking, anyway?

Funny you say that.. Ive read many sermons of St. Augustine on Free will..

I must say, that there is a difference of predestination of God knowing who was gonna choose Christ, and of God chosing himself a limited pre-elected cut-off group of persons who only can be saved. Big difference..

Christ wants everyone to be saved if possible. Many visions and NDEs of the saints confirm this and the bible. "For God so loved the WORLD that he gave his only begotton son, that WHOSOEVER shall believe in him shall not perish" But it is ourselves that are bull-headed refuse. We are responsbile for our own actions..

 

[DArceri]

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The verses before this shows us that those who follow the "ruler of this world" (ie. Satan) will be judged.

30 Jesus answered and said, “This voice did not come because of Me, but for your sake. 31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”

Also, the "all peoples" this verse refers to can be assumed to mean "all those who look up". See John 3:14. This verse is talking about when Moses "lifted up" the snake on the pole so that all who chose to look upon it might live. Thus, the analogy is that those who look to Christ, who is "lifted up" on the cross, will live spiritually and eternally.

Originally Posted by squint.
How 'bout this one? Perhaps you can make these Words "go away?"

John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

What is your point about this verse? I think you are ignoring the first part of the verse, ie. "all that the Father giveth me"..... This verse is proof of the sovereign will of God in the selection of those who come to Him for salvation.

39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

Originally Posted by squint.
John 12:47
And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

So you are saying I can't believe this nfool? Do you think it matters to me if you don't? I certainly don't judge you for that...
Oh? Perhaps we should write this one out of the ledgers as well?

If you go a little further along in the verse you will see that Jesus is saying the Word itself will be the judge ON THE LAST DAY. Jesus' ministry "on earth" was not to judge, but to evangelize and seek out His own (ie. save those who are His).

48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

Originally Posted by squint.
2 Corinthians 5:19
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them.

AGAIN, you need to know context here. WHO IS PAUL'S AUDIENCE HERE????? Paul is speaking to the Church at Corinth (supposedly saved believers). Paul was worried about "those that opposed Paul" trying to corrupt the Church and he is urging the Church to be unified. Paul is reminding "believers" of their status (a reconciled standing) with Christ. It was a motivational speech. If you look a couple verses eaarlier it says:

16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Originally Posted by squint.
1 John 4:7
-anyone who loves both knows God and is born of God

These are just so difficult aren't they?
Calling people "totally depraved" and "predestined" to burn alive forever does not look like "love" to me
This is just a sprinkling of Gods Great Glory in His Word...there is an avalanche of same, but of course all the Word in the Bible in this regard will not sway you from Mr. Calvin, the arbiter of what you are allowed to "accept."

LOVE IS THE FRUIT....
Yes love is an integral part of being IN-CHRIST, however, it is the love in Christ that empowers you to love others like He loves you.

Remember, people can love anyone or anything, especially themselves or the world.

Also, this goes hand in hand with faith. Who is your faith iin?

1John 4
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Thus,
Faith in who? yourself?
Faith that you can remain faithful by your own efforts and/or religion?
Faith that you can perservere on your own strength?

IT'S GOD WHO GIVES US STRENGTH TO PERSERVERE. God gets all the credit....

Originally Posted by squint.
Perhaps you'd find it more than a bit strange that Paul called the "sin indwelling" his flesh NO LONGER I twice in Romans 7. But of course you will only insist that it is only the other guy, your neighbors whom you're commanded to love.

I guess no one explained to you man's "sin nature". What does our sin nature have anything to do with God reconciling us to Himself ie. being made righteous IN HIS EYES? God forgives us of all our sins, past, present, and future. Paul was told that his "thorn" was there for a purpose. Yes, God's purpose:

2 Cor 12: 9
And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Originally Posted by squint.
Because of the presence of sin indwelling. He who commits sin is OF THE DEVIL. (1 John 3:8) Why then do you blame ONLY mankind?

Well, if you don't sin anymore you are basically Jesus Christ Himself. LOL

...Obviously this passage is asking "believers" to test themselves to see if they are actually in the faith. If you habitually sin without conviction then most likely you are a false convert. How could someone who is a "new creation" keep on sinning?

2 Cor 13:5,6
Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified. 6 But I trust that you will know that we are not disqualified.

Originally Posted by squint.
Oh?
Gen. 6:9
-Noah was a righteous man
Matt. 1:19
-Joseph her husband was a righteous man
Luke 1:
5-a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6And they were both righteous before God,
Luke 2:25
-Simeon, who was righteous
Acts 10:22
-Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man

IN GOD'S EYES THEY ARE DECLARED RIGHTEOUS.....

Moses, Noah, Abraham, David, Isaac,...all were sinners on earth. They all had a sin nature. Some were even adulturers and murderers.....However, because of God's choosing, HE counted them ALL righteous. Why? Do you think God knew there heart? Do you think God had a plan or purpose for them?

 

[Jipsah]

I must say, that there is a difference of predestination of God knowing who was gonna choose Christ

That isn't predestination, that's foreknowledge.

and of God chosing himself a limited pre-elected cut-off group of persons

Howcome y'all always seem to indicate that if it's God doing the saving, then He won't save many? It's always "a limited number" or "a few", or "a select group". It's as though you don't believe that God would, left to His own devices, want to save many people. Kind of a nasty view of God, wouldn't you say?

Christ wants everyone to be saved if possible.

If possible? Remember this:

Matthew 19
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

"For God so loved the WORLD that he gave his only begotton son, that WHOSOEVER shall believe in him shall not perish"

Right. And without God acting on their hearts, whosoever won't.

But it is ourselves that are bull-headed refuse. We are responsbile for our own actions..

Yep. But God saves us anyway. Blessed be He!

 

[nobdysfool]

Hi Jipsah, the ol it doesn't mean what it says it means this other thing is unsound.

Not unsound, for we see this happen all the time here. Just inconvenient, when it undercuts your argument. There is a such a thing as logical consistency.

 

[nobdysfool]

To seek God? Sure, lots of unregenerate folks seek God. There's a seeker born every minute, which is why the world is chocabloc with strange and arcane religions.

But you saved the best for last, a man with total spiritual inability can seek God, and can be trying to enter the kingdom, not the kingdom of budda, but the kingdom of Yahweh. Is that the doctrine of Total Spiritual Inability advocated by Calvinism? If true, the doctrine should be rewritten, reformed if you will, to state it is the doctrine of limited spiritual ability

Looking at these two quotes, it is obvious that what Jipsah said sailed right over his opponent's head, or was ignored and something else put in its place.

Jipsah's point was that unregenerate men seek after a god of their own making, not the Lord Yahweh of the Scriptures. Jipsah rightly pointed out that this is the reason we have the plethora of false religions we see today. Each man doing what is right in his own sight, and bowing down to gods he has invented.

But Van turns it around, and claims that Jipsah said something he did not say, to wit: "a man with total spiritual inability can seek God, and can be trying to enter the kingdom, not the kingdom of budda, but the kingdom of Yahweh." It is blatantly obvious that Jipsah said no such thing. In fact, Jipsah said the opposite.

Therefore, the divide and conquer attempt has been foiled, because it is based on either a failure to understand what was said, or a willful attempt to attribute what was not said, as what was said. Either way, the argument collapses in on itself.

Total Depravity is the Calvinist doctrine. The continual attempt to identify it as Total Spiritual Inability is a red herring. Spiritual inability refers to the effect of man's depravity, not its cause. Unregenerate men are incapable of moral good, due to their depravity. .

 

[nobdysfool]

Duplicate post, due to fat finger-itis

 

[squint]

The verses before this shows us that those who follow the "ruler of this world" (ie. Satan) will be judged.

And as I've already put up in this thread a couple of times now, Satan (and his messengers) do abide in the flesh of "all" mankind, save One of course, and who follows Satan but his own? And who is led by Satan but the "slave."

If any "believer" rightfully acknowledges that mankind as it pertains to the flesh, including the 'mind' is subjected to that working, then the guilty verdict should rightfully be rendered to the "workers" fo that iniquity in the flesh, and the offspring of God, whom all of mankind are, should be divided from that working in the flesh as the slaves that "all" are and remain. For example, whenever the Law of Moses is applied to any person, the lawlessness that dwells in the flesh as sin indwelling, yes even in a "christian" still rears it's ugly head as "none" of us are able to abide under the perfection that Law requires because of that same indwelling sin in our flesh, and in that of the "unbeliever."

Jesus never came to condemn the captives, but to "free" them from that working, and that working is showed clearly and openly on nearly every page of the Gospels where Jesus divided "mankind" from "devilkind." In this light I have no cause to condemn the captives if I acknowledge that working of sin is real and is of the devil.

30 Jesus answered and said, “This voice did not come because of Me, but for your sake. 31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”

Also, the "all peoples" this verse refers to can be assumed to mean "all those who look up". See John 3:14.

There are those who "look up" and there are those who will remain blinded slaves of the "god of this world" til their dying day, and we "all" see only in part and in darkness. There is no reference to "only those who look up" in the "drawing of all men" citing that you just employed so to try to impose a limit for all men when there is none does not prevail. All men will be drawn to God and none who are thusly drawn will be cast out, just as Jesus openly stated.

This verse is talking about when Moses "lifted up" the snake on the pole so that all who chose to look upon it might live. Thus, the analogy is that those who look to Christ, who is "lifted up" on the cross, will live spiritually and eternally.

Your implied limit is not inferred. We see with the Law of Moses, the "revealing" of lawlessness unto which that Law was written. When we see that "snake" we should also see the "workings" of that same "snake" in mankinds flesh. When we see that as a "separate working" that is "not" from Gods offspring, all mankind are indeed "healed." Christ was lifted as a permanent healing for all mankind. And a permanent "judgment" against the workings of the "snake" in makind, to which Jesus addressed quite adequately. If you do not "see" that clear division between these two workings or even if you do not "divide yourself" from that working, then you to should believe that the "snake" is "only you." And that view will not bear the test of scriptures, as all mankind are Gods offspring, and it is the work and workings of the "snake" to blame and accuse our fellow man "only." I blame that accusation and blame and working where scriptures have advised that it is, a work of the devil in the flesh.

What is your point about this verse? I think you are ignoring the first part of the verse, ie. "all that the Father giveth me"..... This verse is proof of the sovereign will of God in the selection of those who come to Him for salvation.

God is the Saviour of all mankind. And the condemner of all devil kind which are for no uncertainty bound into "all" of our flesh and minds.

I gave very specific text proofs earlier in this thread where "made enemies of the Gospel" as it pertains to Israel shall "all" be saved. On that presentation alone in Romans 11, both determinism in the Calvin fashion and freewillism are permanently eradicated as legitimate doctrines because it blows a hole through both positions that cannot be addressed by those same positions with coherency.

39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

If you go a little further along in the verse you will see that Jesus is saying the Word itself will be the judge ON THE LAST DAY. Jesus' ministry "on earth" was not to judge, but to evangelize and seek out His own (ie. save those who are His).

Jesus specifically said that The Word He "has" spoken will judge and that Word is "I judge him not."

All mankind as Gods offspring will go free from the works and workers of sin.

48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

Thank you, "have spoken" speaks for Himself. "I judge him NOT."

Those who have rejected Jesus are the anti-Christ spirits that prevail over the hearts and minds of our fellow man. We should not blame them, but the cause, and even the "cause" was in fact made by God specifically to oppose love, and that is what most churches have fallen into. The very command to love our neighbors as ourselves has been cast away imho by "false judgment" in not seeing the cause, the DEVIL. God has provided us all with a fulcrum upon which to "lay the blame" and it is assuredly not our fellow man, yet that working does come from mankinds flesh. It's a hard division, but one that is presented in the text.

AGAIN, you need to know context here. WHO IS PAUL'S AUDIENCE HERE????? Paul is speaking to the Church at Corinth (supposedly saved believers). Paul was worried about "those that opposed Paul" trying to corrupt the Church and he is urging the Church to be unified. Paul is reminding "believers" of their status (a reconciled standing) with Christ. It was a motivational speech. If you look a couple verses eaarlier it says:

16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

People who are in Christ would not be denying that Christ does reconcile the "world" unto Himself and "not counting" sins against mankind. It is the partialist camps that try to hoard those Words to a defined set of them and a "few others" who are in their own camps. I see no need for such limits in the face of clear statements or imposed contextual limitations when the text gives none.

LOVE IS THE FRUIT....
Yes love is an integral part of being IN-CHRIST, however, it is the love in Christ that empowers you to love others like He loves you.

Remember, people can love anyone or anything, especially themselves or the world.

Also, this goes hand in hand with faith. Who is your faith iin?

Love does not condemn their fellow man to be fried alive in fire forever. Love does "no ill" Love keeps "no record" of wrongs. Love "never fails" contrary to the positions of nearly all damnation of people doctrines.

Even the orthodox Roman Catholic church provides for post death salvation. The protestants would be well advised therein.

enjoy!

squint

 

[nobdysfool]

Then the Gospel doesn't mean squat. What a crock!

 

[beloved57]

squint says:

God is the Saviour of all mankind

This is a true statement, not that God is a potiential saviour of all mankind , but truly a saviour

Only the elect of God were represented by the first adam, and only the elect of God are represented by the second adam. The non elect, the reprobated and all those who go to hell fire, were not in the first adam at creation, only the elect, the bride , the church were in adam, thats how he was made in the image and likeness of God , particularly The Son of God. So the true mankind who were in adam, thats the mankind Christ came to seek and to save, and He accomplished that via His cross...

 

[nobdysfool]

Only the elect of God were represented by the first adam, and only the elect of God are represented by the second adam. The non elect, the reprobated and all those who go to hell fire, were not in the first adam at creation, only the elect, the bride , the church were in adam, thats how he was made in the image and likeness of God , particularly The Son of God. So the true mankind who were in adam, thats the mankind Christ came to seek and to save, and He accomplished that via His cross...

I would like to see some proof of that, particularly that only the Elect were in Adam.

 

[squint]

squint says:

This is a true statement, not that God is a potentially saviour of all mankind , but truly a saviour

Only the elect of God were represented by the first adam, and only the elect of God are represented by the second adam. The non elect, the reprobated and all those who go to hell fire, were not in the first adam at creation, only the elect, the bride , the church were in adam, thats how he was made in the image and likeness of God , particularly The Son of God. So the true mankind who were in adam, thats the mankind Christ came to seek and to save, and He accomplished that via His cross...

Few can accept that "all mankind" are Gods offspring, yet Paul did teach that to "unbelievers" in Acts 17:23-29. Adam was also "Gods son" according to scripture and ALL of Israel are taught in the O.T. to be Gods children, to which Jesus also testified, and of course not "all" of them were "believers."

The primary issue with either determinism or freewillism is that neither camp renders the workings of Satan as the "cause" of unbelief, and only render the "guilty" verdict to their fellow man, even though they ARE Gods offspring.

Both positions have toe holds in scripture.

For example I can make an excellent case for T.U.L.I.P. IF the parties in question mankind and devilkind are DIVIDED.

Total Depravity? The devil and his messengers in the flesh are TOTALLY DEPRAVED.

Unconditional Election? All mankind, as Gods offspring, are indeed Unconditionally Elected.

Limited Atonement? There is NO atonement for the devil and his messengers in the flesh.

Irresistible Grace? God draws all His offspring back to Himself

Perseverance of the Saints? Gods offspring do not sin nor do they loose their "salvation" even though they are presently slaves of sin in the flesh, all.

Similar views can be applied to Freewillism:

Christ has made us free indeed. That "freedom" is not as our wills APART FROM His Will and Intent nor can we say we have no sin, which actions are of the DEVIL.

Both of these camps have argued continuously and vainly for hundreds of years. The facts are the neither of these camps can address the others issues and neither of these camps can or will bring in the "real" workers of iniquity to weigh in on their positions.

As stated earlier, even the Roman Catholic Church which certainly cannot be termed "unorthodox" has allowed for POST DEATH salvation under the flag of "purgatory."

enjoy!

squint

 

[beloved57]

This may be rather easy.

Has God made (we'll leave the percentages undefined) people only to burn them alive forever (or insert whatever form of annihilation/eternal separation/or any other form of eternal punishment you want to tag it)?



As a determinist who believes that "some people" will be burned alive forever as "such" they were "predetermined" to this fate, correct?


I also believe in every eternal damnation/torment scripture as being unto Satan and his messengers who were "openly disclosed" to reside in the flesh of mankind, who were SEPARATED from mankind's flesh by Jesus, and also spoken to in the FLESH of mankind. So there is where I divide these "scriptures" and YES, I do believe in Eternal Hell in the Lake of Fire. I do find it rather unlikely however that God is going to render that fate to His "offspring" whom all of mankind are. (Acts 17:23-29)

The Gospel IS Good News to mankind. Bad news for devilkind. I do not have to "mix" these two positions.

enjoy!

squint

Every human being is Gods offspring only from the standpoint of being granted physical life , the right to exist by God. But only the elect of God are Gods true mankind, adam only stood for and represented the elect, the church, this is typified by his creation, for the women was in him at his creation, like the church is in christ and was in christ from before creation...The non elect are satans spiritual offspring being introduced into the world by means of physical generation by adam, however the wicked seed of satan never had a place in adam before the fall...

 

[DArceri]

Few can accept that "all mankind" are Gods offspring, yet Paul did teach that to "unbelievers" in Acts 17:23-29.

NOT QUITE SQUINT.......
SO, lets look at this passage in Acts 17 then:

Isn't Paul trying to talk "reason" to this group of idol worshipers? Paul always knows his audience and tries to reason with them at their own level.

Since the Greek poets suggest they all are offsprings of a god, THEN how could a god be nothing more than a man-made idol (ie something made of gold or silver)? Such reasoning points to the absurdity of idolotry and casts doubt at the Greeks "worship methods". After reasoning with them, Paul is then free to share the story of the Cross with them.

ACTS 17 28-31".....as also some of YOUR OWN POETS have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

 

[DArceri]

Few can accept that "all mankind" are Gods offspring

Those who don't know God are NOT HIS SONS!!!!

1 John 3:1-3
The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Beloved, we are God's children NOW; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. And every one who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.

Rom 8
14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship. When we cry, "Abba! Father!"
16it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

Ephesians 1:
5 He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will
13 ......sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
14 which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory


JOHN 8:39-47 You Are of Your Father the Devil

39They answered him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, 40but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. 41You are doing the works your father did." They said to him,) "We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God." 42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."

 

[nobdysfool]

Isn't Paul trying to talk "reason" to this group of idol worshipers? Paul always knows his audience and tries to reason with them at their own level.

Correct. Paul wasn't saying that all men are actually the offspring of God, he was showing that absurdity of them thinking that they were the offspring of gold and silver idols. Paul was showing them via their own reasoning, how they were missing the Truth.

The verse division are not in the original manuscripts, or the early copies. Some of them are unfortunate, in that they tend to divide thoughts which should not have been divided.

If you eliminate the verse numbers from the text, and read it as a paragraph, Paul's reasoning becomes very easy to follow. Those who utilize verses to separate thoughts and concepts based on those verse divisions, have invented many errors.

 

[Renton405]

Yes, when the bible talks aout predestination its about what God foresaw

(1 Peter 1:2) and “For whom He foreknew, He also predestined

“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God . . .” .” (Romans 8:29).

Election is according to the foreknowledge of God. This simply means that God, before the foundation of the world, elected (chose, determined) to provide a plan of redemption for man (whom he knew would fall from his initial holy estate), and that this choosing would be upon the basis of those who are “in him” (Christ) as opposed to those who are not (Ephesians 1:4).

POST DEATH salvation under the flag of "purgatory."

What a laugh... People in Purgatory are all allready saved. They are being purified by God's love..

 

[DArceri]

Love does not condemn their fellow man to be fried alive in fire forever. Love does "no ill" Love keeps "no record" of wrongs. Love "never fails" contrary to the positions of nearly all damnation of people doctrines.

Even the orthodox Roman Catholic church provides for post death salvation. The protestants would be well advised therein.

enjoy!

squint

Isn't this passage differentiating the "hearts" of believers from the "hearts" of sinners? It suggests that if God is in you, love is something far more (ie. agape love):

LUKE 6:32-36
32 If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount.