One horrendous doctrine

[nobdysfool]

Yes, when the bible talks aout predestination its about what God foresaw

(1 Peter 1:2) and “For whom He foreknew, He also predestined

“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God . . .” .” (Romans 8:29).

Predestination is not Foreknowledge. "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined.

You're saying that "for whom He Foreknew, He also Foreknew."

Election is according to the foreknowledge of God. This simply means that God, before the foundation of the world, elected (chose, determined) to provide a plan of redemption for man (whom he knew would fall from his initial holy estate), and that this choosing would be upon the basis of those who are “in him” (Christ) as opposed to those who are not (Ephesians 1:4).

Then you have to explain how men place themselves in Christ, when the bible specifically says that it is God who places them in Christ. Not only that, but you change the meaning of election from that of individuals to the formulation of a plan. Scripture shows such a view to be wrong.

What a laugh... People in Purgatory are all allready saved. They are being purified by God's love..

Want an even bigger laugh?

There is no such place as Purgatory....

 

[squint]

Every human being is Gods offspring only from the standpoint of being granted physical life , the right to exist by God.

Oh?

From that same Acts 17:
25 -he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things

(care to make an exception to "all things?)

28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being

Paul also taught this same position of the granting of "all things" to the believers, no different than what he taught the "unbelievers." It is God Himself that has set the boundries and times of every person, His offspring.

But only the elect of God are Gods true mankind, adam only stood for and represented the elect, the church, this is typified by his creation, for the women was in him at his creation, like the church is in christ and was in christ from before creation...The non elect are satans spiritual offspring being introduced into the world by means of physical generation by adam, however the wicked seed of satan never had a place in adam before the fall...

Whew. I hope you are not of the school of certain people being organically/physically spawned devils via Satan.

That is indeed a deep hole to crawl out of, but there are many who lean that way.

Here is a "good" piece of advice:

1 Thessalonians 5:15
See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.

IF rendering men to eternal torture in fire is NOT rendering evil for evil, I don't know what is.

enjoy!

squint

 

[squint]

Those who don't know God are NOT HIS SONS!!!!

I will disagree with NO scripture:

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not

And we already have Jesus' Judgment upon those who hear and do not believe: "I judge HIM NOT."

We also have a very open example in Romans 11 of past tense "made enemies" of the Gospel being "saved." So there are very certain and obvious "exceptions" to your view.

1 John 3:1-3
The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Beloved, we are God's children NOW; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. And every one who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.

1 John 2
11-whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.

3 John 1:11
Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

JOHN 8:39-47 You Are of Your Father the Devil

Jesus often spoke to devils and even SATAN IN MANKIND. Where did you expect "them" to be addressed???

enjoy!

squint

 

[squint]

Isn't this passage differentiating the "hearts" of believers from the "hearts" of sinners? It suggests that if God is in you, love is something far more (ie. agape love):

What "Jesus" differentiated in mankind was both the working of Good and Love as being "of God" and those who "do so" are born of God and KNOW God,

and He "differentiated" that from the working of "evil" in the flesh which is "of the devil." That is how Jesus "divided" mankind "from" devilkind.

Paul made the identical distinction when he termed the "sin indwelling" himself as "NO LONGER I" twice in Romans 7, also stating that "whenever" he wanted to do good, he found that "EVIL WAS PRESENT" WITH HIM.

Paul was no different than you or I or any other person as it pertains to the "working" of sin indwelling the flesh, and he denied and decried that working as being that of the "sin indwelling" which is "of the DEVIL." Paul was assuredly NOT EVIL, yet EVIL was for no uncertain fact "present with him." Paul even said that he had a messenger of Satan, given to him BY GOD, that he would know that GRACE was sufficient, in spite of what was in "his flesh."

LUKE 6:32-36
32 If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you?

hello.

We know from scripture that "anyone" who loves, does righteousness, and does good" both knows God and is born of God.

Neither determinist or freewiller however can "accept that" under "their doctrines." As such those doctrines attempt to nullify the plain speaking of the text.

enjoy!

squint

 

[DArceri]

I will disagree with NO scripture:

You won't disagree, however, you just ignore or twist.....TRY THESE AGAIN:

Rom 8
14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship. When we cry, "Abba! Father!"
16it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

Ephesians 1:
5 He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will
13 ......sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
14 which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory


JOHN 8:42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires.

..... 47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."


OR HOW ABOUT THIS VERSE:


John 1:12,13
12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[DArceri]

I will disagree with NO scripture:

[/i][/b]


Jesus often spoke to devils and even SATAN IN MANKIND. Where did you expect "them" to be addressed???

squint

What are you talking about?

 

[DArceri]

We know from scripture that "anyone" who loves, does righteousness, and does good" both knows God and is born of God.

squint

SORRY....I just gave you scripture that refutes this. Sinners (non-believers) can love also, but if they don't or can't accept God's love (Jesus sacrifice on the Cross), how can they "know" God and be His child (ie. born of God)?


LUKE 6:32-34
32 If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount.


Squint, there is no amount of "doing good" that can count us righteous....Righteousness can't come from us. WE ARE DECLARED RIGHTEOUS ONLY BY GOD'S GRACE THROUGH OUR FAITH (TRUST) IN HIM....It is not of our own doing, it is a gift of God, not by works....

Listen Squint, "loving others" or "doing good" is a 'works salvation'. If we are judged by our love, then we will be judged by our hate, if we are judged by our good works then we will be judged by our bad works. That is sure failure..... Loving, trusting, and putting God first is the ONLY way to God. That means you have to trust His New Covenant with man (ie. Jesus' Blood). Once you trust Him, then peace and love will just spill out....For example, Scripture says one needs to love God more than his mother and father:

Matthew 10:37
Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.


Squint, if you are saying you can love others but not believe in God's love to us (ie. the Cross), well, you are not of God and thus not His child. SORRY.

 

[squint]

SORRY....I just gave you scripture that refutes this. Sinners (non-believers) can love also, but if they don't or can't accept God's love (Jesus sacrifice on the Cross), how can they "know" God and be His child (ie. born of God)?

God is not "activated" by mankind nor "made effective" by mankind nor made "ineffective" by mankind. His Work will go on exactly as He has planned. All things were made by Him for "His Pleasure" and He will extract His Pleasure regardless of any "thing" in His creation.

I cited Paul's statement that the "sin indwelling his flesh" was termed "no longer I." I expect that is the case for "all mankind" as well since none of us can say we have no sin and be "in Truth." (1 John 1:9)

And the very "sinners" you eternally condemn, are the ones you are to love by His command. Those two positions are non reconcilable. You cannot love someone out of one side of your mouth and condemn them to eternal torture out of the other. Those who judge and condemn their fellow man, also bring that same judgment upon themselves.

Squint, there is no amount of "doing good" that can count us righteous....Righteousness can't come from us. WE ARE DECLARED RIGHTEOUS ONLY BY GOD'S GRACE THROUGH OUR FAITH (TRUST) IN HIM....It is not of our own doing, it is a gift of God, not by I works...

Agreed. Since all people love in some ways, all people do righteousness in some ways, all people do good in some ways. Good things are a "gift from above"

James 1:17
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

So people, when they do such things, both know God, as those gifts are from God, and they are also born of God, no matter how tight certain doctrinal positions are throttled down to deny that plain speaking. Jesus said even provision of a single cup of cold water WILL have a reward, not a "punishment." The field of reward is bigger than most can conceive.

Listen Squint, "loving others" or "doing good" is a 'works salvation'. If we are judged by our love, then we will be judged by our hate, if we are judged by our good works then we will be judged by our bad works.

I have no need to deny the statements previously provided from scripture as to who knows God and who is born of God, as I understand them to be true, and not made 'ineffective' by other scriptures.

I believe the devil is implicated up to his eyeballs in ALL sin, and that those entities dwell in the flesh of mankind ALSO, as Jesus clearly showed in the Gospels. All mankind will be "divided" in that way. There is not just "man" in mankind's flesh, and that's also a scriptural fact that is well received within orthodoxy.

That is sure failure..... Loving, trusting, and putting God first is the ONLY way to God.

Love never fails. God will not fail us, though we may fail Him daily. In faith, I have every "right" to pray for the salvation of ALL MANKIND, and also to expect God to hear and answer that prayer. There may be many rules imposed by your doctrines. That will not alter or hinder my prayer or my expectations, because those expectations are "in line" with Gods Divine Intentions. God DOES WILL to save all mankind and to be the SAVIOUR of all mankind, and SAVE He Will, and I agree with Him.

That means you have to trust His New Covenant with man (ie. Jesus' Blood). Once you trust Him, then peace and love will just spill out....For example, Scripture says one needs to love God more than his mother and father:

Matthew 10:37
Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

The "ones" who "hate us," Gods offspring, are the devil and his messengers in the flesh who are the "resistors" to Gods Love for all. There is a "mother" of the flesh called the "harlot" of Mystery Babylon. There are "controllers" of that darkened world and that world also has occupants who "hate us all." That is what God meant them to do IN THE FLESH and those who perform "their workings" do so as slaves, and they do not love their fellow man.

I simply ask believers to turn their hatred away from mankind, and look at the obvious resistors firstly in our own flesh, and then you will see them in others as well, though they are only discernable in Love, by Love and disclosed openly by The Word.

Neither determinist or freewillers take these other things into their accountings and instead blame and accuse both each other and their fellow man, when the adversary is speaking in the midst of all of these disputes.

God is NOT the Author of confusion to His children. He is however The Confuser of the opposition movement, and that shows exceptionally well that His Working remains to confuse the opponents of LOVE, as none of them can agree on nearly anything, or if they do, it will not be in agreement with LOVE to our fellow man. That is the LAST PLACE the opposition movement will go, as THAT is the Truth of The Gospel. It IS Good News to mankind, and the Good News is BAD NEWS for the devil and his messengers, whom God made to "oppose" Love, for God Is Love.

Squint, if you are saying you can love others but not believe in God's love to us (ie. the Cross), well, you are not of God and thus not His child. SORRY.

I neither condemn, nor judge any of mankind, Gods offspring. However, The Word has shown me that is not "all" that transpires in "the flesh."

enjoy!

squint

 

[beloved57]

squint says

cited Paul's statement that the "sin indwelling his flesh" was termed "no longer I." I expect that is the case for "all mankind" as well since none of us can say we have no sin and be "in Truth." (1 John 1:9)

squint, you can make your mouth say anything ! Paul was a believer when he made that statement, all mankind are not believers squint, lol..

 

[squint]

squint says
squint, you can make your mouth say anything ! Paul was a believer when he made that statement, all mankind are not believers squint, lol..

Sorry. I'm not in the market for blaming and accusing my fellow man whom I am commanded by God to LOVE, nor do I have to overlook the "cause" of their blindness.

I know who my enemies are and I know who my friends are, and there is no need to divide these issues any further than that. I do not have to condemn my fellow man whom Jesus came to SAVE.

enjoy!

squint

 

[DArceri]

And the very "sinners" you eternally condemn, are the ones you are to love by His command. Those two positions are non reconcilable. You cannot love someone out of one side of your mouth and condemn them to eternal torture out of the other. Those who judge and condemn their fellow man, also bring that same judgment upon themselves.

WOW....WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT AGAIN? Squint, it is God who condemns, not me. I'm called to love everyone, even my enemies ....However, you really are skirting the issue AGAIN.... Please respond to these verses about who are considered God's children and who aren't. That's the REAL issue here. If non-beleivers are not children of God, then there is NO INHERITANCE INTO THE KINGOM OF GOD for them . They are doomed!!!!! SO SQUINT, FOCUS ON THESE VERSES PLEASE:


I'LL THROW THEM AT YOU AGAIN:

Rom 8
14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship. When we cry, "Abba! Father!"
16it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

Ephesians 1:
5 He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will
13 ......sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
14 which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory


JOHN 8:42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires.

..... 47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."


OR HOW ABOUT THIS VERSE:


John 1:12,13
12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[squint]

WOW....Where are you going again?...Squint you really skirted the issue again.

Your comment is a non sequitur.

Please respond to these verses about who is considered God's children and who isn't.

Only if one flat out disregards the multiple scriptures provided on "who" knows and is born of God. If you want to bypass, rewrite or flat out elimate those texts, you then may have a point, but as noted, they will not be going away in any case.

That's the REAL issue here. If non-beleivers are not children of God, then there is NO INHERITANCE INTO THE KINGOM OF GOD for them . They are doomed!!!!!

I doubt very much that God is going to burn His Own offspring alive in fire, as that is presented "nowhere" in the scriptures. There is, and you may factually note, that there is not one single named person who is said to be headed for the fate you intend. NOR is there a single named person in the entire Bible even threatened with such a fate.

SINCE there are "most obviously" more than a single and sole occupant of the "flesh" according the Jesus Own Disclosure, I have no requirement to disregard the other parties that are for a "fact" addressed by Jesus. Uh, that would be the devil and his messengers.

Seeing that you "seem" to utterly fail to render that working of the devil and his messengers as even being "involved" and only see your fellow man, I would expect that you do not see this. I do. Pardon me for observing the obvious.

I'LL THROW THESE AT YOU AGAIN:

Rom 8
14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship. When we cry, "Abba! Father!"
16it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

Well you see, there is what plain statements of scripture present, and then there are the veritable multitude of ways that people impose their own (perhaps influenced?) views upon that same scripture. In this way, understanding scripture then becomes MORE of a reflection of the reader's impositions in all cases. I hope you see what is reflected in me, and that I do actually love ALL my fellow mankind. And therefore the scripture is also my ally, as that is what God does too. God actually does love ALL mankind. And God actually does HATE all devilkind. And BOTH of these are found "in the flesh." That is one reason scripture is so hard to come to grips with in it's entirety. Sooner or later, if you do not love all mankind, you will simply be heading against the text. And if you fail to render unto Satan, the things that Jesus spoke to Satan "in the flesh" then you too will mistake what is for Satan as being unto your fellow man whom you are to Love. That is why so many are "divided" on these subjects. When the parties are divided, mankind from Satankind, the confusions go away immediately.

You read that chain and it says to you what? I see that scripture and KNOW that ALL mankind are Gods offspring, and are also therefore "led" by OUR Father.

And I also recognize that God also "works" against the "other vessel" in the lump of clay, the vessel of dishonor who is NOT Gods offspring. I am quite hard pressed to say that there has been a single offspring of God who has not "loved" in some way. I am hard pressed to say that there has been a single offspring of God who has not done righteousness in some way. I am hard pressed to say that there is a single offspring of God who has not done good in some way. I therefore have ZERO cause to judge that offspring. In fact scripture outright tells me that sins are NOT counted against my fellow man:

2 Corinthians 5:19
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

So you see, you and I have come to completely opposing views on this subject. And I would rightfully view your intention as "countings sins" against mankind, when there are obviously "other parties" involved in their blinding, and also "more than likely" actions performed by the offspring of God that CONFIRM their birth by God and therefore their also KNOWING God.

Just because one has Jesus painted across their lips does not mean they are "in truth." I am more inclined to believe that people who actually DO love their fellow man are "believers" whilst those who count sins against our fellow man and OVERLOOK the "cause" of sin which the devil is clearly implicated in, remain in darkness. I STILL do not blame that child who is in darkness.

I do however completely agree that every eternal damnation and condemnation scripture is in full force and effect unto the parties for which they are intended, the DEVIL and his messengers, and THESE are 'also' found in the flesh of mankind.

If you fail to understand this, and then ask me to "count sins" against mankind, I can only say that I am not in the business of running headlong AGAINST the plain statements of scripture. I can actually accept all of it exactly as it says and STILL love my fellow man and NOT condemn them to eternal torture in fire BECAUSE of the other parties involved.

Ephesians 1:
5 He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will
13 ......sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
14 which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory

God knows who are His. God is assuredly not against loving our fellow man by any stretch of the imaginations.

JOHN 8:42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires.

Well, it may surprise you, but I think Jesus actually was speaking to children of the devil in that statement, just as He says, and NOT my fellow man.

..... 47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."

I agree. The children of the devil will not and cannot hear, nor do they allow their captives to hear. I can see, read and accept that Jesus was addressing the children of the devil, just as He said He was.

Now: "Why" would that action be held against the captives?

Answer: It won't be. Sins will not be counted against mankind, just as Paul says.

OR HOW ABOUT THIS VERSE:


John 1:12,13
12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Believers are called to know these things. This is the simple stuff. If you engage the deceivers, then you will know who your real enemies are, and they assuredly are NOT your fellow man.

It would be very nice if believers came to grips with the facts of the deceivers, and got off of blaming other people for the very same sins that they too have. We are after all to love our neighbors as ourselves. If one cannot do that, they may seem to me to have missed the entire picture.

enjoy!

squint

 

[DArceri]

Your comment is a non sequitur.


Only if one flat out disregards the multiple scriptures provided on "who" knows and is born of God. If you want to bypass, rewrite or flat out elimate those texts, you then may have a point, but as noted, they will not be going away in any case.


I doubt very much that God is going to burn His Own offspring alive in fire, as that is presented "nowhere" in the scriptures. There is, and you may factually note, that there is not one single named person who is said to be headed for the fate you intend. NOR is there a single named person in the entire Bible even threatened with such a fate.

SINCE there are "most obviously" more than a single and sole occupant of the "flesh" according the Jesus Own Disclosure, I have no requirement to disregard the other parties that are for a "fact" addressed by Jesus. Uh, that would be the devil and his messengers.

Seeing that you "seem" to utterly fail to render that working of the devil and his messengers as even being "involved" and only see your fellow man, I would expect that you do not see this. I do. Pardon me for observing the obvious.


Well you see, there is what plain statements of scripture present, and then there are the veritable multitude of ways that people impose their own (perhaps influenced?) views upon that same scripture. In this way, understanding scripture then becomes MORE of a reflection of the reader's impositions in all cases. I hope you see what is reflected in me, and that I do actually love ALL my fellow mankind. And therefore the scripture is also my ally, as that is what God does too. God actually does love ALL mankind. And God actually does HATE all devilkind. And BOTH of these are found "in the flesh." That is one reason scripture is so hard to come to grips with in it's entirety. Sooner or later, if you do not love all mankind, you will simply be heading against the text. And if you fail to render unto Satan, the things that Jesus spoke to Satan "in the flesh" then you too will mistake what is for Satan as being unto your fellow man whom you are to Love. That is why so many are "divided" on these subjects. When the parties are divided, mankind from Satankind, the confusions go away immediately.

You read that chain and it says to you what? I see that scripture and KNOW that ALL mankind are Gods offspring, and are also therefore "led" by OUR Father.

And I also recognize that God also "works" against the "other vessel" in the lump of clay, the vessel of dishonor who is NOT Gods offspring. I am quite hard pressed to say that there has been a single offspring of God who has not "loved" in some way. I am hard pressed to say that there has been a single offspring of God who has not done righteousness in some way. I am hard pressed to say that there is a single offspring of God who has not done good in some way. I therefore have ZERO cause to judge that offspring. In fact scripture outright tells me that sins are NOT counted against my fellow man:

2 Corinthians 5:19
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

So you see, you and I have come to completely opposing views on this subject. And I would rightfully view your intention as "countings sins" against mankind, when there are obviously "other parties" involved in their blinding, and also "more than likely" actions performed by the offspring of God that CONFIRM their birth by God and therefore their also KNOWING God.

Just because one has Jesus painted across their lips does not mean they are "in truth." I am more inclined to believe that people who actually DO love their fellow man are "believers" whilst those who count sins against our fellow man and OVERLOOK the "cause" of sin which the devil is clearly implicated in, remain in darkness. I STILL do not blame that child who is in darkness.

I do however completely agree that every eternal damnation and condemnation scripture is in full force and effect unto the parties for which they are intended, the DEVIL and his messengers, and THESE are 'also' found in the flesh of mankind.

If you fail to understand this, and then ask me to "count sins" against mankind, I can only say that I am not in the business of running headlong AGAINST the plain statements of scripture. I can actually accept all of it exactly as it says and STILL love my fellow man and NOT condemn them to eternal torture in fire BECAUSE of the other parties involved.



God knows who are His. God is assuredly not against loving our fellow man by any stretch of the imaginations.


Well, it may surprise you, but I think Jesus actually was speaking to children of the devil in that statement, just as He says, and NOT my fellow man.


I agree. The children of the devil will not and cannot hear, nor do they allow their captives to hear. I can see, read and accept that Jesus was addressing the children of the devil, just as He said He was.

Now: "Why" would that action be held against the captives?

Answer: It won't be. Sins will not be counted against mankind, just as Paul says.



Believers are called to know these things. This is the simple stuff. If you engage the deceivers, then you will know who your real enemies are, and they assuredly are NOT your fellow man.

It would be very nice if believers came to grips with the facts of the deceivers, and got off of blaming other people for the very same sins that they too have. We are after all to love our neighbors as ourselves. If one cannot do that, they may seem to me to have missed the entire picture.

enjoy!

squint

OK SQUINT...THE DOOR IS "WIDE" ....GOOD LUCK WITH THAT.....GOD BLESS.

 

[Renton405]

Hmm funny...

It says in scripture that God wishes no one to perish and that all to come to salvation..

 

[nobdysfool]

Hmm funny...

It says in scripture that God wishes no one to perish and that all to come to salvation..

So, is God having trouble with that? Are all men being saved? Are any perishing? Is the Lord God, Creator of heaven and Earth, unable to bring about that which He desires?

 

[squint]

OK SQUINT...THE DOOR IS "WIDE" ....GOOD LUCK WITH THAT.....GOD BLESS.

Contraray to what many Christians think, If they "think" about LOVE, they will soon discover that when they condemn the majority of their fellow man to be fried alive forever, guess who found the broad path that leads to destruction?

Love clarifies those types of scriptures. And oft times turns them in an exact opposite of what you may have thought prior.

Wonder why that is? I don't blame my fellow man. But we do have enemies.

enjoy!

squint

 

[nobdysfool]

One thing you keep repeating, over and over again, as if it were true, is this false accusation that Calvinists condemn their fellow man to judgment and hell.

We have no power to do so, nor do we have the right. Your contention is false, as is your Universalist Doctrine.

Calvinists preach the Gospel to all men, so that the Elect will respond and be saved. Your many lies about Calvinists and Calvinism show that the "love" you preach is a false love, and a sham that you hide your hatred of the Doctrines of Grace behind.

You falsely accuse Calvinists of that which we do not believe, or practice. Accusing someone of falsehoods is not practicing love, it is fomenting division and strife.

 

[heymikey80]

Hmm funny...

It says in scripture that God wishes no one to perish and that all to come to salvation..

It's actually in a letter to Christians. And it's a statement about them.

Funny! Yes!

 

[squint]

One thing you keep repeating, over and over again, as if it were true, is this false accusation that Calvinists condemn their fellow man to judgment and hell.

You do for no uncertain fact condemn your fellow man, whosoever does not conform to your view of the elect. I have already shown several ways "why" that position is not true and provided several scriptural exceptions to that view, none of which have been addressed, or of course when they are, they are attempted "eliminations" of scripture by scripture (an impossibility) or by contextual "eliminations" that turn "all men" into a few and "the world" into a tiny fraction thereof.

We have no power to do so, nor do we have the right. Your contention is false, as is your Universalist Doctrine.

I think you bowed out of a factual discussion here quite a few pages back. If you want to go back and pick up the observations, they are still waiting and won't be going away any time soon.

It's one thing to declare a position false. It's quite another to prove it. I accept every scripture as it says. Christian Universal doctrines are not known by most who take issue.

Calvinists preach the Gospel to all men, so that the Elect will respond and be saved.

And what happens to those who remain blinded by the "god of this world?" You say you condemn no men, but you do of course have "measures" of who is and who is not, therefore your math is beyond denial no matter how much you may try to disclaim your own positions.

Your many lies about Calvinists and Calvinism show that the "love" you preach is a false love,

Oh puhleese. I condemn none of mankind. I do believe that "the darkness" of that which is NOT LOVE and is NOT my fellow man is the "temporal cause" of the promotion of eternal torture of my fellow man in fire forever, so please keep your self defined offense to yourself. Offense to mankind is not possible in Christian Universalism. WE believe that Gods Love Prevails Ultimately over "all things." Certain things will be permanently put in the Lake, but that is NOT going to be Gods offspring, whom all of mankind are.

and a sham that you hide your hatred of the Doctrines of Grace behind.

And yet another non-sequitur.

You falsely accuse Calvinists of that which we do not believe, or practice. Accusing someone of falsehoods is not practicing love, it is fomenting division and strife.

You can't hide from your own positions, and do for no uncertain fact say that "some" undefined amount of people who are "not the elect" are going to be fried (or annihilated or eternally separated) so let's not run from your own stated positions here. I only observe your positions, I did not make them, and in fact I agree with all of them, if applied properly.

I will say again, IF mankind were the only occupants of the flesh, Calvinists would with no uncertainty have their points, but because that working upon us "all" is not rendered into their positions, they have overlooked a huge amount of other possibilities.

And the primary reason those positions are overlooked, is that we should look for that working of darkness upon our own hearts, and that of course will remain a task of Love in us to do so. I believe Love looks most intensely at every man's heart sooner or later, and overcomes them, and will "then" dispel the darkness in them "which is not them" as Gods offspring.

When you understand this, then you can bring a legitimate critique of the positions. Calling someone who does not condemn YOU a falsifier is quite pointless in LIGHT of the FACTS of scripture.

The "practice" of Irresistible Grace is upon you. Total depravity is something that "all flesh" save One, is bound with. That is where scriptures divide "all mankind" and they also separate the darkness, which is of the devil, and not MANKIND.

enjoy!

squint

 

[nobdysfool]

You do for no uncertain fact condemn your fellow man, whosoever does not conform to your view of the elect.

I do no such thing and repeated accusations will not change that, You accuse me falsely without any knowledge of what I truly believe. I identify myself as a Calvinist, and you think that therefore, I MUST believe whatever false impression you have of Calvinism. And you claim you're not judging me? Bullwinky!

I have already shown several ways "why" that position is not true and provided several scriptural exceptions to that view, none of which have been addressed, or of course when they are, they are attempted "eliminations" of scripture by scripture (an impossibility) or by contextual "eliminations" that turn "all men" into a few and "the world" into a tiny fraction thereof.

You have babbled on about nonsensical universalist views of which several have been conclusively shown to be misinterpretation and ignorance of context.

I think you bowed out of a factual discussion here quite a few pages back. If you want to go back and pick up the observations, they are still waiting and won't be going away any time soon.

There is no need to waste my time with a know-it-all.

It's one thing to declare a position false. It's quite another to prove it.

A fact you should be more cognizant of, and practice yourself.

I accept every scripture as it says.

So you say, until one doesn't fit with your view.

Christian Universal doctrines are not known by most who take issue.

Ah, here we go.....squint has "special knowledge"...."knowledge not generally known"....the very definition of Gnosticism. Thank you for clearing that up.

And what happens to those who remain blinded by the "god of this world?"

Will not the Lord of all the Earth do right? They are His problem, not mine. And, they are really no problem for Him, either. He has already said what He will do.

You say you condemn no men, but you do of course have "measures" of who is and who is not, therefore your math is beyond denial no matter how much you may try to disclaim your own positions.

My measure is what God's Word specifically says about the fate of all who do not obey the Gospel, or glorify God as God, or believe on His Name. And it was people He was talking about.

Oh puhleese. I condemn none of mankind.

Except Calvinists....

I do believe that "the darkness" of that which is NOT LOVE and is NOT my fellow man is the "temporal cause" of the promotion of eternal torture of my fellow man in fire forever, so please keep your self defined offense to yourself.

Metaphysical mumbo-jumbo. Was that a "crystal revelation"?

Offense to mankind is not possible in Christian Universalism.

And yet, you've offended every Calvinist here with your falsehoods and false accusations....go figure.

WE believe that Gods Love Prevails Ultimately over "all things." Certain things will be permanently put in the Lake, but that is NOT going to be Gods offspring, whom all of mankind are.

And we have shown you that Paul did not say that all mankind are God's offspring, and that Jesus specifically said that those who do not believe are of their father the devil. Jesus was not talking to demons, He was talking to human beings, just like you and me.

You can't hide from your own positions, and do for no uncertain fact say that "some" undefined amount of people who are "not the elect" are going to be fried (or annihilated or eternally separated) so let's not run from your own stated positions here. I only observe your positions, I did not make them, and in fact I agree with all of them, if applied properly.

You don't even correctly know what my positions are. You've just stamped a "Calvinist" stamp on me, and think you have me figured out. It doesn't work that way. It's just a convenient way of avoiding actual discussion and learning.

I will say again, IF mankind were the only occupants of the flesh, Calvinists would with no uncertainty have their points, but because that working upon us "all" is not rendered into their positions, they have overlooked a huge amount of other possibilities.

More metaphysical 'crystal revelations'. I don't deal with metaphysical baloney like that. It's not biblical, it's occultish, and as such scripture enjoins me from participating in, or even learning about such nonsense.

And the primary reason those positions are overlooked, is that we should look for that working of darkness upon our own hearts, and that of course will remain a task of Love in us to do so. I believe Love looks most intensely at every man's heart sooner or later, and overcomes them, and will "then" dispel the darkness in them "which is not them" as Gods offspring.

More metaphysical mumbo-jumbo. Gnosticism.

When you understand this, then you can bring a legitimate critique of the positions.

In other words, I must 'buy in" to the thinking before I dare find fault? Sorry, I don't pollute my mind with gnostic myths. You have no trouble criticizing Calvinism, even though you haven't "bought into" it. Your requirement is bogus, because you don't practice it yourself.

Calling someone who does not condemn YOU a falsifier is quite pointless in LIGHT of the FACTS of scripture.

And yet you have done nothing but condemn Calvinists since you showed up with your "special knowledge". So I daresay, I do have a point.

The "practice" of Irresistible Grace is upon you. Total depravity is something that "all flesh" save One, is bound with. That is where scriptures divide "all mankind" and they also separate the darkness, which is of the devil, and not MANKIND.

Men love darkness rather than the light. That is not something within them that is not them, that is the way they are born. MEN love Darkness rather than light.

As for your statement, "The "practice" of Irresistible Grace is upon you", I have no idea what you mean. Is that like "the eyes of the Ranger are upon you"?

It is more mumbo-jumbo, as far as I'm concerned.

Universalism was and still is heresy, according to the Early Church and numerous Councils and Synods. Historically, you haven't got a leg to stand on.