One God in Three Persons, Blessed Trinity

[BobRyan]

@BobRyan speaking of the Trinity, you might be troubled to know that a few months back an Adventist on one of the forums said to me something to the effect that SDA doctrine is that while Jesus Christ was on Earth he was not God. .

I have heard that from some folks (primarily former-SDAs) - but it is not in our doctrines and it cannot be supported from what we consider to be inspired sources.

Everyone has free will so they can post as they wish - but the documents we use do not sustain that idea.

"But although Christ's divine glory was for a time veiled and eclipsed by His assuming humanity, yet He did not cease to be God when He became man. The human did not take the place of the divine, nor the divine of the human. This is the mystery of godliness. The two expressions human and divine were, in Christ, closely and inseparably one, and yet they had a distinct individuality. Though Christ humbled Himself to become man, the Godhead was still His own. His Deity could not be lost ... ST May 10, 1899, par. 11​

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I agree - that is a question because it makes it appear that God the Son and God the Holy Spirit have an origin, when God by definition has no beginning... is eternal , is from eternity past -- in my particular view of the Trinity.

I don't like vagueness that leads to confusion. What does this mean to "proceed from the Father and the Son?"
Does it mean the Holy Spirit is being dispatched from the presence of the Father and Son?
Does it mean the Holy Spirit proceeds out of the being of the Father and Son?
I know Jesus told the disciples that if He left, He would send us the Comforter. That sounds like dispatching (for lack of a better word).

John 14:16-18
16. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17. Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

 

[BobRyan]

I don't like vagueness that leads to confusion. What does this mean to "proceed from the Father and the Son?"
Does it mean the Holy Spirit is being dispatched from the presence of the Father in Son?
Does it mean the Holy Spirit proceeds out of the being of the Father and Son?
I know Jesus told the disciples that if He left, He would send us the Comforter. That sounds like dispatching (for lack of a better word).

John 14:16-18
16. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17. Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Good question. But notice in John 3 Christ says that Nicodemus as a Bible scholar of the O.T. scripture must already know about the Holy Spirit and the New Birth. It was already OT fact.

 

[Andrewn]

I am curious about this phrase:
"... the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,"

The Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed does not include the phrase "and the Son." It is a Catholic addition. As far the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father, this is quoted verbatim from John's Gospel:

Joh 15:26 “But when the Counselor comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will bear witness of Me.

This is understood ontologically.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

The Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed does not include the phrase "and the Son." It is a Catholic addition. As far the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father, this is quoted verbatim from John's Gospel:

Joh 15:26 “But when the Counselor comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will bear witness of Me.

This is understood ontologically.

Thank you! I did not know that!

 

[The Liturgist]

I have heard that from some folks (primarily former-SDAs) - but it is not in our doctrines and it cannot be supported from what we consider to be inspired sources.

Everyone has free will so they can post as they wish - but the documents we use do not sustain that idea.

"But although Christ's divine glory was for a time veiled and eclipsed by His assuming humanity, yet He did not cease to be God when He became man. The human did not take the place of the divine, nor the divine of the human. This is the mystery of godliness. The two expressions human and divine were, in Christ, closely and inseparably one, and yet they had a distinct individuality. Though Christ humbled Himself to become man, the Godhead was still His own. His Deity could not be lost ... ST May 10, 1899, par. 11​

That is really reassuring to have confirmation from you on that and it establishes Ellen White as a great Trinitarian.

Now, while I support free speech and the member in question - it is of course axiomatic they can post as they wish, but they did make your church look bad, so if I find that thread I can PM a link to you so you can post a clarification, for their edification in SDA doctrine, and for the benefit of the SDA church.

By the way back in late 2018 I bought an amazing recording from the Ukrainian SDA Choir, well before the current horrible war, which is of exquisite quality, and its the only recording in my vast library of Church Slavonic hymns that features 18th century Ukrainian composer Dimitri Bortniansky’s 5th and 6th setting of the Cherubic hymns as well as the 7th. Every other recording I have only has setting no. 7, which is the most popular. That is the hymn that goes “We who mystically represent the cherubim now set aside our worldly cares” and is used in the Byzantine Rite divine liturgies, except for that of St. James, which uses the hymn “Let all mortal flesh keep silent”, and also the Vesperal Divine Liturgy on Holy Saturday, and is commonly used by Protestant churches, set to the chorale tune “Picardy.” I think I have seen it in an older SDA hymnal in that version but am not sure.

 

[Clare73]

where does the bible say that the bible is the one and only source for Christian Theology?

Being God-breathed, the Bible is the one and only judge of all Christian theology (2 Timothy 3:16-17).
What is not in agreement with NT apostolic teaching is in error.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The Nicene Creed

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.

"and the Son" was NOT in the original version of the Nicene Creed...it was a much later addition by Rome.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I am curious about this phrase:
"... the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,"

Specifically the phrase "proceeds from the Father and the Son."
Not questioning, only seeking. I believe our faith comes from the Word of God and only the word of God. Without the Word, there is no faith. To believe this and have it as an element of faith, I need Word. Do we have "line upon line" or "jot or tittle" that says the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son? Not picking at words mind you, only looking for rational conclusions based on scriptural evidence.
Thanks!

It is an addition added much later by Rome and was NOT in the original Creed...The Eastern Orthodox use only the original version...

 

[Clare73]

I am curious about this phrase:
"... the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,"
Specifically the phrase "proceeds from the Father and the Son."
Not questioning, only seeking. I believe our faith comes from the Word of God and only the word of God. Without the Word, there is no faith.

To believe this and have it as an element of faith, I need Word. Do we have "line upon line" or "jot or tittle" that says the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son? Not picking at words mind you, only looking for rational conclusions based on scriptural evidence.
Thanks!

Jesus proceeded (Gr: exelthon), came forth from within, out of the Father (John 8:42, John 16:27-28, John 17:8).

The Holy Spirit proceeds (Gr: ek-poreuetai) comes forth from within, goes forth out of, the Father
(John 15:26).

In Revelation 22:1, the river of the water of life (Holy Spirit, Revelation 22:17) flows from
(Gr: ek-poreuomenon) the throne of God and the Lamb,
proceeding from within, going forth out of, the Father and the Son.

 

[Clare73]

I agree - that is a question because it makes it appear that God the Son and God the Holy Spirit have an origin, when God by definition has no beginning... is eternal , is from eternity past -- in my particular view of the Trinity.

It is what Scripture says it is:

ek-poreuetai - "to go forth, to go from or out of, to proceed out from within,"

John 15:26 - "the Spirit of Truth who proceeds from (Gr: ek-poreuetai, from within) the Father,"
as in:

Mark 7:19 - "enters the belly and goes out (ek-poreuetai, from within the belly) into the drain"

Revelation 9:17 - "fire and smoke and sulphur proceeds (ek-poreuetai, from within) out of their mouths"

Revelation 11:5 - "fire proceeds (ek-poreuetai, from within) out of their mouths"

The Holy Spirit, being their spirit, comes from within, eternally originates in the Father and the Son.

 

[BobRyan]

It is what Scripture says it is:

ek-poreuetai - "to go forth, to go from or out of, to proceed out from within,"

John 15:26 - "the Spirit of Truth who proceeds from (Gr: ek-poreuetai, from within) the Father,"
as in:

Mark 7:19 - "enters the belly and goes out (ek-poreuetai, from within the belly) into the drain"

Revelation 9:17 - "fire and smoke and sulphur proceeds (ek-poreuetai, from within) out of their mouths"

Revelation 11:5 - "fire proceeds (ek-poreuetai, from within) out of their mouths"

Matt 4:4
Matthew 4:4
But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ”

Does not mean that a given word did not exist in any vocabulary until God said it to man -- and I think we can agree.

God sends the Holy Spirit - but it does not mean that God the Holy Spirit did not exist before God sent Him to Earth.

so then "to go forth, to go from" -- to be sent from --

In that specific context it is not addressing the origin of / finite beginning of -- but rather the mission/ministry/commission of the one sent.

by contrast --


In Revelation 22:1, the river of the water of life flows from
(Gr: ek-poreuomenon) the throne of God and the Lamb,
proceeding from within, going forth out of, the Father and the Son.

God sent forth His Son

Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,

John 3:17
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

 

[The Liturgist]

It is what Scripture says it is:

ek-poreuetai - "to go forth, to go from or out of, to proceed out from within,"

John 15:26 - "the Spirit of Truth who proceeds from (Gr: ek-poreuetai, from within) the Father,"
as in:

Mark 7:19 - "enters the belly and goes out (ek-poreuetai, from within the belly) into the drain"

Revelation 9:17 - "fire and smoke and sulphur proceeds (ek-poreuetai, from within) out of their mouths"

Revelation 11:5 - "fire proceeds (ek-poreuetai, from within) out of their mouths"

The Holy Spirit, being their spirit, comes from within the Father and the Son.

Indeed. @BobRyan to clarify, the doctrine of the Nicene Creed in its original form establishes that the Father is unoriginate, and the Son and Holy Spirit are uncreated. The son is said to be begotten of the Father before all worlds, and the Spirit proceeds from the father.

 

[BobRyan]

Indeed. @BobRyan to clarify, the doctrine of the Nicene Creed in its original form establishes that the Father is unoriginate, and the Son and Holy Spirit are uncreated. The son is said to be begotten of the Father before all worlds, and the Spirit proceeds from the father.

Acts 13: 33 "God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm:

Ps 2:
‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.’
​

In Micah 5:2 "“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Though you are little among the thousands of Judah,
Yet out of you shall come forth to Me
The One to be Ruler in Israel,
Whose goings forth are from of old,
From everlasting.”

Ps 90:1
LORD (YHWH) , You have been our dwelling place in all generations.
2 Before the mountains were brought forth,
Or ever You had formed the earth and the world,
Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.

we have the same "from everlasting" origin for both the Father and the Son

One of the attributes of God is that He is "eternal" having no beginning.

Heb 7:1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated “king of righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, meaning “king of peace,” 3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.

The Genesis account gives no account of the birth of the king of Salem - so in that sense he can be viewed "as a type" of God the Son - having no beginning.

 

[Clare73]

Matt 4:4
Matthew 4:4
But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ”

The word goes forth from within God's mouth, as my words go forth from within my mouth.

Does not mean that a given word did not exist in any vocabulary until God said it to man -- and I think we can agree.

Only when my proceeding from (within) the kitchen to the dining room "did not exist in any category until God said it to man."

God sends the Holy Spirit - but it does not mean that God the Holy Spirit did not exist before God sent Him to Earth.

Agreed. . .

so then "to go forth, to go from" -- to be sent from --

It is not addressing the origin of -- but rather the mission/ministry/commission of the one sent.

by contrast --

It is addressing only from where the Holy Spirit comes. . .he is continually proceeding from the Father and the Son (like the Father's breathing), as the Son is continually proceeding from the Father (like the Father's thinking).

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Indeed. @BobRyan to clarify, the doctrine of the Nicene Creed in its original form establishes that the Father is unoriginate, and the Son and Holy Spirit are uncreated. The son is said to be begotten of the Father before all worlds, and the Spirit proceeds from the father.

Very nice word study. Thank you.

 

[BobRyan]

It is addressing only from where the Holy Spirit comes. . .he is continually proceeding from the Father and the Son (like breath), as the Son is continually proceeding from the Father (like thought).

ok but proceeding from -- as in being sent from - but not like a river is proceeding from a spring in the sense that it is originating at that moment or that God the Father is originating God the Son at the moment of sending Him to Earth.

God sent forth His Son

Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,

John 3:17
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

as compared to fire actually being created at the moment it proceeds from ...


Revelation 9:17 - "fire and smoke and sulphur proceeds (ek-poreuetai, from within) out of their mouths"

Revelation 11:5 - "fire proceeds (ek-poreuetai, from within) out of their mouths"

 

[concretecamper]

Being God-breathed, the Bible is the one and only judge of all Christian theology (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

Paul was referring to the Tanakh, not what you refer to as the bible.

What is not in agreement with NT apostolic teaching is in error.

this doesn't mean every truth needed by a Christian is in the bible

 

[concretecamper]

It is an addition added much later by Rome and was NOT in the original Creed...The Eastern Orthodox use only the original version...

the same Church that declared the Book of Matthew inspired text is the same Church that says "proceeds from the Father and the Son"

 

[Clare73]

ok but proceeding from -- as in being sent from

No, as eternally (continually) proceeding from the Father, never not proceeding from the Father (like the Father breathing)

- but not like a river is proceeding from a spring in the sense that it is originating at that moment or that God the Father is originating God the Son at the moment of sending Him to Earth.

The Son and the Holy Spirit are eternally proceeding/originating, never not proceeding/originating from God the Father, like breathing is continual, never not breathing.