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One God in Three Persons, Blessed Trinity

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and worst of all if Jesus was not God at all times then we are not saved.

and yet when his hour came and by perception he was separated from this truth ...

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it has been written: "Cursed is everyone hanging on a tree"--
 
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disciple Clint

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I believe the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. But I do not use the word "trinity" nor do I condemn others who do not. I do not see that word in scripture, so I cannot in good conscience and faith demand that others use it. That is becoming very close to the "traditions of men" spoken of by Jesus. So while I agree in spirit, I only have issue when others demand the word be used "or else."
where does the bible say that the bible is the one and only source for Christian Theology?
 
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disciple Clint

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and yet when his hour came and by perception he was separated from this truth ...

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it has been written: "Cursed is everyone hanging on a tree"--
Now who's "perception" would that be and to what truth are you making reference?
 
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Andrewn

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It is like demanding from someone: "So how do you understand that a bird is a tree?" Well, I cannot. I do not hold to the concept that a bird is a tree, so I cannot explain it, and really am not going to try.
A bird and a tree have a lot in common. They both have DNA. They are made up of cells containing nuclei and organelles. Many metabolic pathways are similar. And they both live and die. Human beings share 41% of our DNA with bananas. Birds and trees have a lot of similarities. But this is not like the question about the relationship between the Father and the Son.

We know from the scripture that the Word was in God in eternity (before any creation). We also know that God gave birth to the Word at which time there was a Father and a Son.
Would you remind me which Bible passages contain the bolded words?
 
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Andrewn

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and worst of all if Jesus was not God at all times then we are not saved.
Unfortunately, this belief may be more widespread than you think, not only among SDA, and not only among lay people.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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Jesus came to show us the Father. He came to remove the mystery. If we cannot understand God and the Father, then we have to ask if Jesus failed? I do not believe He failed. He explained the relationship exactly and perfectly. If He came and successfully revealed the Father to us, then it is no longer a Mystery.

We are yet a mystery to ourselves. And the depths of even this material universe remain in mystery to us. What Jesus revealed to us about God is all we need for salvation. But let us not imagine that we have fathomed the infinite.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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A bird and a tree have a lot in common. They both have DNA. They are made up of cells containing nuclei and organelles. Many metabolic pathways are similar. And they both live and die. Human beings share 41% of our DNA with bananas. Birds and trees have a lot of similarities. But this is not like the question about the relationship between the Father and the Son.


Would you remind me which Bible passages contain the bolded words?


John 1:18
18. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 1: Emph Bible Rotherham)
18 No one, hath seen, God, at any time: An Only-Begotten God, The One existing within the bosom of the Father, He, hath interpreted [him].

John 17:5
5. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

John 17:8
8. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

JFB
“they ... have known surely that I came out from thee

John 8: “The Greek New Testament “ Kurt Aland
42 Jesus said to them, “If God was your father you would love me [unconditionally], for I came out of God and I am here; for I have not spoken of myself but rather of that one, who sent me.

John 8 (JM-NT)
42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you folks would have been loving Me, for I came forth and am arrived here from out of the midst of God. For neither have I come from Myself (on My own initiative), but rather that One sent Me away with a mission (commissions and sends Me forth as an Emissary: an Apostle).

Vincent's Word Studies
John 8:42
“…Ἑξελθεῖν ἐκ, here, emphasizes the idea of essential, community of being:I came forth out of.

John 16:27-28 LITV
27 for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came out from God.
28 I came out from the Father and have come into the world; I leave the world again and go to the Father.

Vincent's Word Studies
John 16:28
From the Father (παρά)
The best texts read, ἐκ, out of.

Alvah Hovey Commentary on the Gospel of John
“I came forth from the Father. More precisely, I came out from the Father; not from the Father’s side (para), but as it were, out from (ek) the inner being, the very life and love of the Father. The language is exact, and strong enough to be appealed to in proof of the essential unity of the Father and the Son, or at least of the Father and the Word.”

Sabbath School Lesson Study, 4th quarter 1936
The direct statement of Jesus, "I came forth from the Father," reads literally, "I came out of the Father." Putting with this, His testimony in John 10:38, "The Father is in Me, and I in Him," we have His personal witness that He truly was "begotten of the Father," as John says in 1:14.

Word pictures in the new testament A.T. Robertson

John 16:28
I came out from the Father (exēlthon ek tou patros). Definite act (aorist), the Incarnation, with repetition of ek (out of), while in John_16:27 we have (para tou patros exēlthon) with no practical distinction between ek and para in resultant idea.

Early Christian statements:


Theophilus of Antioch
“God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bowels, begat him, emitting him along with His own wisdom before all things" (Autol. 2.10)


Athenagoras (133 – 190 AD)
“A Plea Regarding Christians”
“There is one God and the Logos who proceeds from him, the Son. We know that the Son cannot be separated from God.

Theophilus 180 AD
“God then having His own Word internal within His bowels, beget Him, emitting Him along with His own wisdom before all things.”
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Then what is the "form" of God?
Roberts Word Studies
Philippians 2:6
Being (huparchōn). Rather, “existing,” present active participle of huparchō. In the form of God (en morphēi theou). Morphē means the essential attributes as shown in the form. In his preincarnate state Christ possessed the attributes of God and so appeared to those in heaven who saw him. Here is a clear statement by Paul of the deity of Christ.

I think this may be a case of overthinking on some commentators part. In the very next verse Paul uses the same phrase again, this time stating that this same person (Christ) took on a new "form," that of a servant.

Philippians 2:7-8
7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.


So, there is a parallel here, and that is the point of the passage. The divine Christ took on the form of a lowly servant. From the fashion of a Divine to the fashion of a man. Not substance, but operative function. He did not lose His divinity. This, I think, is the correct context. Not really a metaphysical description, rather only a comparative. Divine form to servant form.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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We are yet a mystery to ourselves. And the depths of even this material universe remain in mystery to us. What Jesus revealed to us about God is all we need for salvation. But let us not imagine that we have fathomed the infinite.
Exactly. Well said. I have said the same.
And what He has revealed belongs to us, and we can speak it with full confidence that we have the truth. :oldthumbsup:
 
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BobRyan

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I'm Catholic and we believe in he Trinity. Father, Son and Holy Spirit. 3 in one.

"Our profession of faith begins with God, for God is the First and the Last, the beginning and the end of everything. The Credo begins with God the Father, for the Father is the first divine person of the Most Holy Trinity; our Creed begins with the creation of heaven and earth, for creation is the beginning and the foundation of all God's works."

---the Catechism of the Catholic Church, no. 198

Catholic belief is succinctly expressed in the profession of faith or credo called the Nicene Creed:

The Nicene Creed
I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,

the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,

begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,

who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.

Thanks that is exactly the kind of response I am looking for.

Do you consider it to be basically the same as "One God in three persons" that we see in the OP?
 
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BobRyan

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where does the bible say that the bible is the one and only source for Christian Theology?

2 Tim 3:16 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is to be used for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

Acts 17:11 -- Even Apostolic teaching was tested "sola scriptura"
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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2 Tim 3:16 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is to be used for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
And that was before there even was a NT "scripture".
 
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SavedByGrace3

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I am curious about this phrase:
"... the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,"

Specifically the phrase "proceeds from the Father and the Son."
Not questioning, only seeking. I believe our faith comes from the Word of God and only the word of God. Without the Word, there is no faith. To believe this and have it as an element of faith, I need Word. Do we have "line upon line" or "jot or tittle" that says the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son? Not picking at words mind you, only looking for rational conclusions based on scriptural evidence.
Thanks!
 
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BobRyan

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And that was before there even was a NT "scripture".


True just as in Isaiah 8:20 speaking of the "law and the prophets" -- says "if they speak not according to this Word they have no light"... making scripture the test of new light all the way back then.

Principle of sola scriptura testing does not stop new scripture from being written as we see in the case of Isaiah 8:20 and 2 Tim 3:16. It just means all doctrine must be tested against scripture - and that includes anyone claiming to have some new communication from God.
 
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BobRyan

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I am curious about this phrase:
"... the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,"

Specifically the phrase "proceeds from the Father and the Son."
Not questioning, only seeking. I believe our faith comes from the Word of God and only the word of God. Without the Word, there is no faith. To believe this and have it as an element of faith, I need Word. Do we have "line upon line" or "jot or tittle" that says the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son? Not picking at words mind you, only looking for rational conclusions based on scriptural evidence.
Thanks!

I agree - that is a question because it makes it appear that God the Son and God the Holy Spirit have an origin, when God by definition has no beginning... is eternal , is from eternity past -- in my particular view of the Trinity.
 
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