Once Saved Always Saved?

faroukfarouk

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These verses tell us how great is the love of God - reference to John 3:16
"shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
God will always be faithful He cannot deny himself.

But these same verses do not list unbelief, nor faithlessness - which is what we can do.
Believers can and do stop loving their Saviour and righteousness.
And if a believer does not repent and return to the first love before they either die or the Last Trumpet
sounds, then they will be lost and found to be naked and without wedding garment.

Not everybody who says to me Lord. Lord shall enter the Kingdom of God ...
I don't believe in 'Saved today, lost tomorrow'. But there is the illusion of being saved and yet lost now and for eternity - and this is why there is the Biblical call to repentance.

Romans 8.38-39 and John's First Epistle are very reassuring to the true believer.
 
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Phil 1:21

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John's First Epistle is very reassuring to the believer.

As it no doubt was to the "once saved" Christians I knew who turned atheist. So I still wonder, how you know you're saved? Or is salvation only known in hindsight?
 
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faroukfarouk

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As it no doubt was to the "once saved" Christians I knew who turned atheist. So I still wonder, how you know you're saved? Or is salvation only known in hindsight?
As mentioned in my previous reply to you, John's First Epistle is very assuring. Addressed to those who know the Lord Jesus by faith, its purpose is so that those who know Him may indeed know that they know Him.

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5.19)

"My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him." (1 John 3.18-19)
 
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Phil 1:21

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As mentioned in my previous reply to you, John's First Epistle is very assuring. Addressed to those who know the Lord Jesus by faith, its purpose is so that those who know Him may indeed know that they know Him.

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5.19)

"My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him." (1 John 3.18-19)

Which didn't answer the question. Your statement was...

Eternal security in Christ is very wonderful, and those who profess but fall away and are lost were never saved in the first place.

To which I asked...

So how do you know you're saved?

On the one hand, in order for OSAS to be true you have to contend that those who “profess but fall away and are lost were never saved.” But that mean you only know who was really saved in hindsight by whether or not they fell away. And since you don’t know your own future, you don’t know for sure if you’re really salved. Such a pickle.
 
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faroukfarouk

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Which didn't answer the question. Your statement was...



To which I asked...



On the one hand, in order for OSAS to be true you have to contend that those who “profess but fall away and are lost were never saved.” But that mean you only know who was really saved in hindsight by whether or not they fell away. And since you don’t know your own future, you don’t know for sure if you’re really salved. Such a pickle.
I thought I had given you a rather full answer in the words of Scripture. I am indeed a sinner saved by grace, through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Who died at the Cross for sinners and is risen and glorified.
 
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Waggles

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"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:13)
Notice the word 'believe' mentioned twice in one verse.
So what happens when a believer stops believing, and is full of unbelief?

believe > G4100 > pisteuō > From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit;
by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.
 
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faroukfarouk

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Notice the word 'believe' mentioned twice in one verse.
So what happens when a believer stops believing, and is full of unbelief?

believe > G4100 > pisteuō > From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit;
by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.
The parable of the sower shows the difference between true faith and the false variety that does not last because it's not genuine
 
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Greg Merrill

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These verses tell us how great is the love of God - reference to John 3:16
"shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
God will always be faithful He cannot deny himself.

But these same verses do not list unbelief, nor faithlessness - which is what we can do.
Believers can and do stop loving their Saviour and righteousness.
And if a believer does not repent and return to the first love before they either die or the Last Trumpet
sounds, then they will be lost and found to be naked and without wedding garment.

Not everybody who says to me Lord. Lord shall enter the Kingdom of God ...
How could one have eternal life (Jn 3:16) and then lose it later and experience the second death of Rev 20:15 and be "lost" forever? Imagine a person being born again, then have a short time of unbelief or faithlessness, then regaining faith/belief, and repenting, calling on the Lord to be saved again, entering another period of unbelief, and continuing this cycle. Jesus said "Except ye be born again..." not "Except ye be born again, and again, and again, ...." That is found nowhere in Scripture.
 
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Waggles

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The parable of the sower shows the difference between true faith and the false variety that does not last because it's not genuine
But that is not about some being truly saved. There is no such doctrine in scripture.
You OSAS lot are putting the cart before the horse.
No disciple should have the arrogance of claiming that they are truly saved.

He also that received seed among the thorns is he that hears the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.
Matthew 13:22
Jesus says clearly that some disciples will receive the Word and over time worldliness deceives such
and they become unfruitful. But the issue of salvation does not arise until Judgment Day.
Then the goats will be separated from the sheep. The goats are condemned because of what they do,
their failings, not because they were less saved than others initially.

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same
shall be saved. Mark 13:13
Note: salvation is dependent on the effort put in by disciples/believers - not all will endure (overcome).

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them,
and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:6
Here is a clear reference to disciples not remaining in the Body of Christ (by whatever means they
leave) and the clear consequence in departing from the faith.
 
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faroukfarouk

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But that is not about some being truly saved. There is no such doctrine in scripture.
You OSAS lot are putting the cart before the horse.
No disciple should have the arrogance of claiming that they are truly saved.

He also that received seed among the thorns is he that hears the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.
Matthew 13:22
Jesus says clearly that some disciples will receive the Word and over time worldliness deceives such
and they become unfruitful. But the issue of salvation does not arise until Judgment Day.
Then the goats will be separated from the sheep. The goats are condemned because of what they do,
their failings, not because they were less saved than others initially.

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same
shall be saved. Mark 13:13
Note: salvation is dependent on the effort put in by disciples/believers - not all will endure (overcome).

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them,
and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:6
Here is a clear reference to disciples not remaining in the Body of Christ (by whatever means they
leave) and the clear consequence in departing from the faith.
You make a number of statements I don't agree with.

Salvation is 'by grace..through faith..not of works' (Ephesians 2.8-9)

Some passages in the Gospels referring to future events are not talking about the church, in my understanding.
 
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disciple1

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Can You Lose Your Salvation, or "once saved always saved'? As I prepare to teach Hebrews chapter three this afternoon, that will be the question that will rightly pop up. It will pop up again in chapter six. I knew I could teach this two different ways (knowing that there are even more ways than that). First I could teach it from the way that some scholars, churches, pastors, and teachers erroneously teach it. This way my hearers get a good idea of where these false teachers are coming from. Remember, usually false teachers are not out to purposely deceive, knowing that what they are saying is wrong; but are deceived themselves, and are only teaching what they themselves believe in. I prayed about whether I should teach it this way first or not. Ne 8:8 immediately came to mind, which says "So they read in the book, in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading." So I decided not to teach the wrong way first just so my hearing get an idea of why people people believe the false teaching. Therefore I won't do that on this post either, but will come out right here and answer the question. "No. One can not lose their salvation, once they are (really) saved." Those that appear to lose their salvation (either in passages or verses in the Bible, or in what we see in people's lives today) were never really saved in the first place.
Imagine two people hear the gospel from the same person, at the exact same time. They both then are lead in prayer to say the exact same thing; for example "Lord Jesus, I am a sinner who is now repenting of their sin. Thank You for dying on the cross in my place to pay for my sins. I now ask You to come into my life as my personal Lord and Savior, trusting only in You for my salvation, and for going to Heaven. Amen."
If God was then to say "One of these people I will accept, and one of them I will not, because one of them really was saved and one of them was not." What would be the difference? God might say "They both said the exact right words, but only one of them really believed in and trusted those words, and really believed in and trusted Jesus to save them." With that being the case, say these two people both started to faithfully attend church, get baptized, contribute regularly to the offering, teach Sunday School, and a long list of other things that "good Christians" do. Would they both be saved? No, because one of them still didn't trust Jesus to become their Savior. The good works would not make the unbeliever saved, or be KEEPING the believer saved; but they WOULD be a testimony that the believer was saved. In Hebrews ch 3, the subject of "Eternal Security" isn't even in mind, though it comes to our minds. The writer of that chapter is speaking of signs that a person really is saved, not stipulations of what will keep them saved. The Bible teaches that we are to be born again; not born again, and again, and again, each time we sin and lose are salvation again, and again, and again.
Galatians chapter 5 verse 6
The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself in love.
Matthew chapter 21
32 For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.
Luke chapter 3

7 John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 9 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”

10 “What should we do then?” the crowd asked.

11 John answered, “Anyone who has two shirts should share with the one who has none, and anyone who has food should do the same.”

12 Even tax collectors came to be baptized. “Teacher,” they asked, “what should we do?”

13 “Don’t collect any more than you are required to,” he told them.

14 Then some soldiers asked him, “And what should we do?”

He replied, “Don’t extort money and don’t accuse people falsely—be content with your pay.”
 
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Phil 1:21

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I thought I had given you a rather full answer in the words of Scripture. I am indeed a sinner saved by grace, through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Who died at the Cross for sinners and is risen and glorified.

I know some atheists who once would have said the same thing.
 
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Greg Merrill

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Galatians chapter 5 verse 6
The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself in love.
Matthew chapter 21
32 For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.
Luke chapter 3

7 John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 9 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”

10 “What should we do then?” the crowd asked.

11 John answered, “Anyone who has two shirts should share with the one who has none, and anyone who has food should do the same.”

12 Even tax collectors came to be baptized. “Teacher,” they asked, “what should we do?”

13 “Don’t collect any more than you are required to,” he told them.

14 Then some soldiers asked him, “And what should we do?”

He replied, “Don’t extort money and don’t accuse people falsely—be content with your pay.”
These verses are not talking about how to be saved and have eternal life and security in Jesus, they are talking about preparing one's self, one's heart attitude in doing what is right as a sign of humility and obedience to God in preparation to receive the Savior. If these people rebelled against the message of the for-runner of Christ who was sent forth to prepare the way before him (Mal 3:1-3) they would not be prepared to receive first Christ's message (Receive me, Jn 6:29-63).
 
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Greg Merrill

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2 Timothy 3:14
"But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of ..."
2 Timothy 3:15
"And that from a child thou hast known the holy Scriptures...unto salvation through faith which is in
Christ Jesus."

So -grace is the free gift to all the world
How shall they hear without a preacher?
faith - cometh by hearing the Word of God
keep the faith - gain salvation
"unto salvation"

When does our salvation come?
at the end of our faith
Those in Rev. 14 are still dying in the Lord and waiting for salvation to come. They are dying for their faith in Jesus
Christ.

Does it happen the moment you become a believer? no


Romans 13:11

“And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.”

1 Peter 1:9
“Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.”
These verse are being used out of context, and are speaking of either physical salvation (not spiritual) or of how we are to live once saved, not how to obtain salvation.
 
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AJTruth

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Once saved, you can never become unsaved

At salvation God gives us the HOLY SPIRIT as:
A Seal, A Down Payment, A deposit, A Guard, A pledge. ITS A SALVATION GUARANTEE!

HERE THEY ARE AGAIN:
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed "ye were sealed with that holy Spirit'' of promise
(NOTE: When you believed, you were "SEALED" by the HOLY SPIRIT, a promise of God)

Eph 1:14 Which is the down payment of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession
(NOTE: The HOLY SPIRIT the you were SEALED with is GODS down payment on your salvation)

Eph 4:30 grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are "sealed" unto the day of redemption
(NOTE: GODS HOLY SPIRIT IS A SEAL given unto you receive your incorruptible heavenly body (1 Cor 15:42-44-53) on the day of redemption)

Tim 1:14 The Holy Spirit who dwells within us, guard the good deposit entrusted to you
(NOTE: God gives us the HOLY SPIRIT as a deposit. To guard us until the final day of redemption)

2 cor 1:22 Who hath also "sealed us" & "given the earnest" of the Holy Spirit in our hearts
(NOTE: God has SEALED us with a down payment of the HOLY SPIRIT)

2 Cor 5:5 God, who also hath given unto us "the earnest" of the Spirit
(NOTE: God have given us the HOLY SPIRIT as a down payment = the ernest)

Vines Expository Dictionary Earnest:
"arrabon", noun, Strongs ref #728
originally, "earnest-money" deposited by the purchaser. In general usage it came to denote "a pledge" or "earnest" of any sort; in the NT it is used only of that which is assured by God to believers; it is said of the Holy Spirit as the Divine "pledge" of all their future blessedness, 2 Cor 1:22; 2 Cor 5:5; in Eph 1:14,

In modern Greek arrabona is an "engagement ring"!

At salvation God gives us the HOLY SPIRIT as:
A Seal, A Down Payment, A deposit, A Guard, A Pledge. ITS A SALVATION GUARANTEE!

Here are 7 more scriptures that make it abundantly clear, salvation is eternal. (Jn 3:16 & 6:47; Jn 10:27-29; Rom 8:35; 38-39 & 10:9-13; Phil 1:6)
 
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Greg Merrill

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What do you think "fearful" means in Revelation 21:8?

"...the fearful, and unbelieving...shall have their part
Those that have not Jesus Christ as Savior. "There is no fear in love (God is love, 1John 4:8); but perfect love casteth out fear; because fear hath torment. He that feareth (the non-Christian is not made perfect (complete in Christ) in love. We love him, because he first loved us." 1John 4:18,19
 
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