Once Saved Always Saved?

[Greg Merrill]

Can You Lose Your Salvation, or "once saved always saved'? As I prepare to teach Hebrews chapter three this afternoon, that will be the question that will rightly pop up. It will pop up again in chapter six. I knew I could teach this two different ways (knowing that there are even more ways than that). First I could teach it from the way that some scholars, churches, pastors, and teachers erroneously teach it. This way my hearers get a good idea of where these false teachers are coming from. Remember, usually false teachers are not out to purposely deceive, knowing that what they are saying is wrong; but are deceived themselves, and are only teaching what they themselves believe in. I prayed about whether I should teach it this way first or not. Ne 8:8 immediately came to mind, which says "So they read in the book, in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading." So I decided not to teach the wrong way first just so my hearing get an idea of why people people believe the false teaching. Therefore I won't do that on this post either, but will come out right here and answer the question. "No. One can not lose their salvation, once they are (really) saved." Those that appear to lose their salvation (either in passages or verses in the Bible, or in what we see in people's lives today) were never really saved in the first place.
Imagine two people hear the gospel from the same person, at the exact same time. They both then are lead in prayer to say the exact same thing; for example "Lord Jesus, I am a sinner who is now repenting of their sin. Thank You for dying on the cross in my place to pay for my sins. I now ask You to come into my life as my personal Lord and Savior, trusting only in You for my salvation, and for going to Heaven. Amen."
If God was then to say "One of these people I will accept, and one of them I will not, because one of them really was saved and one of them was not." What would be the difference? God might say "They both said the exact right words, but only one of them really believed in and trusted those words, and really believed in and trusted Jesus to save them." With that being the case, say these two people both started to faithfully attend church, get baptized, contribute regularly to the offering, teach Sunday School, and a long list of other things that "good Christians" do. Would they both be saved? No, because one of them still didn't trust Jesus to become their Savior. The good works would not make the unbeliever saved, or be KEEPING the believer saved; but they WOULD be a testimony that the believer was saved. In Hebrews ch 3, the subject of "Eternal Security" isn't even in mind, though it comes to our minds. The writer of that chapter is speaking of signs that a person really is saved, not stipulations of what will keep them saved. The Bible teaches that we are to be born again; not born again, and again, and again, each time we sin and lose are salvation again, and again, and again.

 

[Galatea]

I believe in the eternal security of the soul, but I would make another distinction. Sometimes, people who think they lost their salvation, are saved and are experiencing a state of being out of God's will.

I think there are many genuinely saved Christians who believe they can lose salvation, but are mistaken. I would not say that they were never saved in the first place.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Those that appear to lose their salvation (either in passages or verses in the Bible, or in what we see in people's lives today) were never really saved in the first place.

Maybe, but so what ? They still think they're saved, and all those who believe in osas also keep on believing they're saved, even if they aren't.
The end result may be the same: not saved is still not saved, even if they were saved once, and even if they were not ever saved once.

Perhaps (as I've seen many times in my life observing others) the only difference where it makes any difference, is in false teachings that go along with it in a person's life, depriving them of truth, when it happens.

edit post posting ie. p.s.: I went to check the rules in case I couldn't post in this section, and it looks okay, except this site rule for this section:
"When you disagree with someone's position, you should post evidence and supporting statements for your position. This policy, sometimes referred to as "X means Y because of Z", must be followed especially when posting claims that are widely considered to be controversial."

I'm not sure what 'evidence or supporting statements' would be considered correct, or even (from memory mostly) what I could come up with on short notice (less than a week)...

So if more 'evidence or supporting statements' is required, it's fine then go ahead and delete this post, or move it as required or even just as desired.

 

[Uber Genius]

First I could teach it from the way that some scholars, churches, pastors, and teachers erroneously teach it.

Presumptuous...aren't you a teacher? How, beyond praying about it, as many teachers you disagree with also do, could you differentiate your inference?

Remember, usually false teachers are not out to purposely deceive, knowing that what they are saying is wrong; but are deceived themselves, and are only teaching what they themselves believe in.

So what if P is the class of false teachers. A is all teachers.

P is a subset of A
P is ignorant that they are false
How would A determine if they are also a member of P?

How would they know?

How do you differentiate your knowledge then the entire set of A?

Prayer? Certainly other A pray.

So your knowledge claim to be A but Not P is in need of further justification.

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

but will come out right here and answer the question. "No. One can not lose their salvation, once they are (really) saved." Those that appear to lose their salvation (either in passages or verses in the Bible, or in what we see in people's lives today) were never really saved in the first place.

I don't know whether its because I'm Catholic or not, but I still find OSAS hard to believe. Doesn't it lead to complacency and even arrogance? "oh I'm saved now. I can relax."
We need to repent everyday. We need to maintain a humble attitude, one that is not guaranteed of anything. In that way, we will endeavour to stay close to the Lord. (just my take Greg, no dramas)

 

[EdyChristian28]

Those who do gods will and fear him will be saved.

I'm sure we don't have to be in full agreement of what that is
but most importantly to resist temptation is key for us youth.

So that our lives will someday be plentiful in gods grace, like grains of sand. I'm sure were not paid evil for doing good since I already know that there is nothing worth in foolishness.

But I think there is a way to life and a way to death. and as it says

The lamb that is lost is precious as the others in the flock. I don't know if it is more precious to the shepherd but I assume it is as important as the others as it is sought out even though far from out of tibulation and trial.

 

[Galatea]

I don't wish to stir up drama, as a believer in OSAS, I know daily confession and repentance is important.

I don't think believing in the eternal security of the soul is arrogance at all, rather the contrary. It is very humbling to know that God loves and cares for me reardless of my sins. It is humbling to know He will never fail me, though I fail Him constantly. It is humbling to know that He will never leave me, nor forsake me- even if I wander astray. I am His lamb, He will always come and rescue me, because He is my Good Shepherd, and my Great Shepherd. It is a humbling thing, to be once saved always saved, and to know the amazing love that is in God.

Where sin abounded, grace did more abound.

It is a humbling thing, indeed.

I won't deny it is a peaceful thing, security. "Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on Him."

Knowing Christ is saving and keeping is the "peace that passes understanding".

God bless you on your lesson, and may He give you the words to teach.

 

[DarthNeo]

I don't wish to stir up drama, as a believer in OSAS, I know daily confession and repentance is important.

I don't think believing in the eternal security of the soul is arrogance at all, rather the contrary. It is very humbling to know that God loves and cares for me reardless of my sins. It is humbling to know He will never fail me, though I fail Him constantly. It is humbling to know that He will never leave me, nor forsake me- even if I wander astray. I am His lamb, He will always come and rescue me, because He is my Good Shepherd, and my Great Shepherd. It is a humbling thing, to be once saved always saved, and to know the amazing love that is in God.

Where sin abounded, grace did more abound.

It is a humbling thing, indeed.

I won't deny it is a peaceful thing, security. "Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on Him."

Knowing Christ is saving and keeping is the "peace that passes understanding".

God bless you on your lesson, and may He give you the words to teach.

What she said ^

 

[least]

Can You Lose Your Salvation, or "once saved always saved'? As I prepare to teach Hebrews chapter three this afternoon, that will be the question that will rightly pop up. It will pop up again in chapter six. I knew I could teach this two different ways (knowing that there are even more ways than that). First I could teach it from the way that some scholars, churches, pastors, and teachers erroneously teach it. This way my hearers get a good idea of where these false teachers are coming from. Remember, usually false teachers are not out to purposely deceive, knowing that what they are saying is wrong; but are deceived themselves, and are only teaching what they themselves believe in. I prayed about whether I should teach it this way first or not. Ne 8:8 immediately came to mind, which says "So they read in the book, in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading." So I decided not to teach the wrong way first just so my hearing get an idea of why people people believe the false teaching. Therefore I won't do that on this post either, but will come out right here and answer the question. "No. One can not lose their salvation, once they are (really) saved." Those that appear to lose their salvation (either in passages or verses in the Bible, or in what we see in people's lives today) were never really saved in the first place.
Imagine two people hear the gospel from the same person, at the exact same time. They both then are lead in prayer to say the exact same thing; for example "Lord Jesus, I am a sinner who is now repenting of their sin. Thank You for dying on the cross in my place to pay for my sins. I now ask You to come into my life as my personal Lord and Savior, trusting only in You for my salvation, and for going to Heaven. Amen."
If God was then to say "One of these people I will accept, and one of them I will not, because one of them really was saved and one of them was not." What would be the difference? God might say "They both said the exact right words, but only one of them really believed in and trusted those words, and really believed in and trusted Jesus to save them." With that being the case, say these two people both started to faithfully attend church, get baptized, contribute regularly to the offering, teach Sunday School, and a long list of other things that "good Christians" do. Would they both be saved? No, because one of them still didn't trust Jesus to become their Savior. The good works would not make the unbeliever saved, or be KEEPING the believer saved; but they WOULD be a testimony that the believer was saved. In Hebrews ch 3, the subject of "Eternal Security" isn't even in mind, though it comes to our minds. The writer of that chapter is speaking of signs that a person really is saved, not stipulations of what will keep them saved. The Bible teaches that we are to be born again; not born again, and again, and again, each time we sin and lose are salvation again, and again, and again.

Brother, I would say teach it in context of what the writer of Hebrews is saying. As there were those in the camp who turned against Moses, so are those who turn away from Christ and will not enter his rest. Who are these who who will not enter his rest? Unbelievers (3:19). Hold firmly to the text!!

 

[Greg Merrill]

I don't know whether its because I'm Catholic or not, but I still find OSAS hard to believe. Doesn't it lead to complacency and even arrogance? "oh I'm saved now. I can relax."
We need to repent everyday. We need to maintain a humble attitude, one that is not guaranteed of anything. In that way, we will endeavour to stay close to the Lord. (just my take Greg, no dramas)

For me personally, I see Jesus as my Savior, not me having to be good to go to Heaven. He saved me completely as He said he would, in as far as my Salvation being secured. I live to please Him and to be a good testimony before others, not to hang on to my Salvation. Jesus hangs on to it for me. Complacent, arrogant. No way. Eternally grateful for salvation, and having a responsibility to now live for Him, not for sin. I have been saved for over 50 years, and I can relax regarding that, but not as far as living for Him. Besides it is not a matter of feeling or opinion, it is a matter of what the Bible says, and read correctly is teaches OSAS.

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

For me personally, I see Jesus as my Savior, not me having to be good to go to Heaven. He saved me completely as He said he would, in as far as my Salvation being secured. I live to please Him and to be a good testimony before others, not to hang on to my Salvation. Jesus hangs on to it for me. Complacent, arrogant. No way. Eternally grateful for salvation, and having a responsibility to know live for Him, not for sin. I have been saved for over 50 years, and I can relax regarding that, but not as far as living for Him. Besides it is not a matter of feeling or opinion, it is a matter of what the Bible says, and read correctly is teaches OSAS.

Its just a different paradigm I'm not used to, that's all. I quite believe your sincerity and others. For me, I am a backslider by nature anyway, so once somebody says "hey Paul, you're saved mate", its drinks all round. Party time! It would go to my head. I'd be out there sinning and procrastitnating. For people like you, I can sense your humility and it works for you. The "guarantee" feeling must be like a monkey off your back and I can see its merit. You can put your worries into pleasing the Lord, showing your gratitude.
I need to be kept on my toes. Maybe God knew that and allowed me to become a Catholic.

 

[Greg Merrill]

Its just a different paradigm I'm not used to, that's all. I quite believe your sincerity and others. For me, I am a backslider by nature anyway, so once somebody says "hey Paul, you're saved mate", its drinks all round. Party time! It would go to my head. I'd be out there sinning and procrastitnating. For people like you, I can sense your humility and it works for you. The "guarantee" feeling must be like a monkey off your back and I can see its merit. You can put your worries into pleasing the Lord, showing your gratitude.
I need to be kept on my toes. Maybe God knew that and allowed me to become a Catholic.

You and God are the one to examine yourself (2Co 13:5), not me. I am not your judge, and so what I am going to write here is not directed to you, but just a testimony of me and people like me that believe in OSAS and turn to righteous living, not to partying like the world parties. My testimony: I was a rotten sinner (until I got saved at age 6, ). From then on, I was always a "good" little boy. When I got into "young manhood" and was considering my relationship with the Lord (having grown up in basically a non-religious home). Desires of the world, I had the basics, of course. Why didn't I follow the "party" of the world. I loved Jesus. He had saved me from hell. I had eternal life now, also internal civil war. Live sinfully, or not? Love for Jesus wins out. I would rather be right with him, then enjoying the sins of the world. Heb 11:24-27

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

TBH, the whole stereotype of being saved at a hyped up ceremony in Church, put me off too. "Come on down and get saved!" Followed by tears of ecstasy and joy. I'm an emotional type but there is something in my family sub-culture that is wired to be suspicious of "fake". I'm not saying every ceremony is fake and there are obviously very sincere people like Greg here too. But some people are not really surrendering to the Lord. They are surrendering to hype and emotion. And as Greg said, these people are not really saved.
I am very sceptical about being part of such a show, so would avoid it. I've been told I can surrender at home by myself. If I have to be "saved" I'll do it this way. My preference however is to follow a gradual path that has no epiphanic moment. Daily repentance. Daily Bible reading, however short. Hoping God speaks to me gradually. If I said "God I surrender to you today" in the morning would that be enough do you think?

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

Sorry too for hijacking this thread and I wish Greg well in his teaching because he walks the talk and that is all that matters.

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

I would rather be right with him, then enjoying the sins of the world. Heb 11:24-27

This part really hit home Greg. because in my secular days, there was a seed planted in me that grew into love of all things secular. False Gods such as gambling drinking and smoking. I don't think the fire has ever fully been extinguished. I still occasionally hanker for a smoke for instance. I can so easily get swallowed up by what the devil has to offer. Whereas you sound like you have only good seed, that has grown into what you are today. A good man!

 

[Waggles]

"No. One can not lose their salvation, once they are (really) saved." Those that appear to lose their salvation (either in passages or verses in the Bible, or in what we see in people's lives today) were never really saved in the first place.

That is nonsensical. It is also a misunderstanding of the scriptures and thus our relationship in Jesus Christ as our Lord and God,
our Redeemer.
1. Who is truly saved? Well I can point the finger at anyone I want to judge as insufficient, or not up to scratch ...
But does my opinion or bias or judging others carry any worth. NO for salvation belongs to the Lord.
Jesus will judge every single person who has ever lived on the face of the Earth from the beginning to the Last Day.
And I believe that his standards will be much higher and stricter than the tolerances we give ourselves.

2. Jesus is faithful and true, and those who are truly baptized in the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues do have divine protection,
and Satan cannot snatch us from the Lord, neither can we be separated from the Lord by our circumstances.
Plenty of scriptures to that truth.

3. BUT saints and Christians can lose their way. Can give up. Do not finish the race. Call it quits. Become reprobates.
Deny the Holy Spirit. Go back into the world. Follow false Christs. Stop praying in the Spirit and become like dried fruit.
Believers can and do walk away from their salvation. Jesus may be forever faithful, but if a believer is not faithful than such
can retreat to perdition.

4. OSAS is based on a fallacious teaching about some being truly saved as opposed to just saved, or whatever.
Complete doctrinal rubbish.
A person is either saved or they are not. When a believer repents and then obeys and is baptized by full immersion, and in the
Holy Spirit (with the Bible evidence of speaking in tongues) - they are truly saved.
And as such enjoy these signs shall follow them that believe, and usually enjoy healings and miracles as well.

But, for a broad array of personal reasons believers chuck it in, and walk away from Jesus. They go back to the world.
The saved can lose their salvation by their own unfaithfulness.
And this fear is what keeps us who love the Lord, the gospel and his righteousness - full of zeal and commitment.
Staying steadfast and sure. Intent on finishing the race, and receiving the prize, the salvation of our souls.

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence,
work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Philippians 2:12

 

[least]

Personally, I believe in the eternal security of the believer.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

Everlasting life is the promise of God to those who believe in his Son (Jesus Christ).

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23

Eternal life is the gift of God to those who believe in Jesus Christ our Lord.

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never** perish, neither* shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one." John 10:28-30

Jesus gives those who believe (his sheep) eternal life and no one can take them out of his or the Father's hands.

I am sure there are Christians who will lose many rewards because of unfaithfulness to God's call on their lives. None of us are completely faithful in it's truest sense. And if we are not completely faithful in every way and in every moment, then we are not faithful at all! But God is always faithful and true!

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

BUT saints and Christians can lose their way. Can give up. Do not finish the race. Call it quits. Become reprobates.

I agree. This is just being realistic.

 

[Greg Merrill]

That is nonsensical. It is also a misunderstanding of the scriptures and thus our relationship in Jesus Christ as our Lord and God,
our Redeemer.
1. Who is truly saved? Well I can point the finger at anyone I want to judge as insufficient, or not up to scratch ...
But does my opinion or bias or judging others carry any worth. NO for salvation belongs to the Lord.
Jesus will judge every single person who has ever lived on the face of the Earth from the beginning to the Last Day.
And I believe that his standards will be much higher and stricter than the tolerances we give ourselves.

2. Jesus is faithful and true, and those who are truly baptized in the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues do have divine protection,
and Satan cannot snatch us from the Lord, neither can we be separated from the Lord by our circumstances.
Plenty of scriptures to that truth.

3. BUT saints and Christians can lose their way. Can give up. Do not finish the race. Call it quits. Become reprobates.
Deny the Holy Spirit. Go back into the world. Follow false Christs. Stop praying in the Spirit and become like dried fruit.
Believers can and do walk away from their salvation. Jesus may be forever faithful, but if a believer is not faithful than such
can retreat to perdition.

4. OSAS is based on a fallacious teaching about some being truly saved as opposed to just saved, or whatever.
Complete doctrinal rubbish.
A person is either saved or they are not. When a believer repents and then obeys and is baptized by full immersion, and in the
Holy Spirit (with the Bible evidence of speaking in tongues) - they are truly saved.
And as such enjoy these signs shall follow them that believe, and usually enjoy healings and miracles as well.

But, for a broad array of personal reasons believers chuck it in, and walk away from Jesus. They go back to the world.
The saved can lose their salvation by their own unfaithfulness.
And this fear is what keeps us who love the Lord, the gospel and his righteousness - full of zeal and commitment.
Staying steadfast and sure. Intent on finishing the race, and receiving the prize, the salvation of our souls.

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence,
work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Philippians 2:12

Until you used Phil 2:12 I wasn't going to respond, but to someone who may be reading this I will. Phil 2:12 is not telling us to work for salvation by holding on to it, by being good, speaking in tongues, or anything else. The "working" here is similar to a farmer "working" out his field. The field is like salvation. One must first have it, to work it out. Having salvation is like have a field. The field in and of itself is valuable, but if you are a farmer you have to go work it. You have to get it ready for planting, then plant, then tend, and then see it become fruitful. Same with the Christian life. One must become a Christian first, and then start living like a Christian, serving/ministering like a Christian, and bearing the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22,23)in your life. Obviously I don't agree with what was posted, and each one must chose for themselves, and bear the responsibility of that choice.

 

[Greg Merrill]

TBH, the whole stereotype of being saved at a hyped up ceremony in Church, put me off too. "Come on down and get saved!" Followed by tears of ecstasy and joy. I'm an emotional type but there is something in my family sub-culture that is wired to be suspicious of "fake". I'm not saying every ceremony is fake and there are obviously very sincere people like Greg here too. But some people are not really surrendering to the Lord. They are surrendering to hype and emotion. And as Greg said, these people are not really saved.
I am very sceptical about being part of such a show, so would avoid it. I've been told I can surrender at home by myself. If I have to be "saved" I'll do it this way. My preference however is to follow a gradual path that has no epiphanic moment. Daily repentance. Daily Bible reading, however short. Hoping God speaks to me gradually. If I said "God I surrender to you today" in the morning would that be enough do you think?

God I surrender is a great start. If you mean it, try this: "Dear Lord Jesus, I know I am a sinner. I know you died that sinners can have the opportunity to have their sins forgiven. I invite you to be my Savior and Lord, to forgive me of all my sins. I will trust only in You dying on the cross in my place for this. I am turning the care of my eternal soul over to You, no longer trusting in what I could possibly do, trusting that having You as my Savior, I have received the gift of eternal life (Rom 6:23; 10:13). Amen."