Once Saved, Always Saved?

[DoubtfulSalvation]

You seem to be implying that a person must earn their salvation.. however, that is not the case. Salvation is a gift received by God's grace through faith. It is not something to be earned. And certainly not by speaking Hebrew. To speak is to learn, to learn is a work,.. no one is saved by works. You could know the Hebrew language fluently and still not get anything out of it that brings you to salvation.. as evidenced by the men in the last chapter of Acts.

The gospel is.. 'your sins are forgiven you.' Believe it in your heart and make confession in faith of receipt, unto salvation. Your sincerity determines the reality of conversion.

No, I was merely pointing out that I believe this to be the opinion of the creator of this thread who believes in works salvation and also secretly believes in the sinless perfection doctrine.

 

[dogs4thewin]

What I am trying to figure out is the statements where Christ says IF as it relates to following Him. If implies conditional status.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

What about the promise in Proverbs?
" For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again, but the wicked shall fall by calamity. " Proverbs 24:16

 

[Blade]

For me I dont know who would ask such a question. For me there are some key words as in "abide". Seems if one is NOT abiding in Christ they are as a branch drys up and dies and is cast into the fire. Never does it say a branch that abides in me but has no fruit so for so on. Its like the narrow and wide road. A key word is LIFE. Jesus also said I come to give you LIVE and give it more abundantly. So for me its clearly talking about this life. We have the Book of life where Jesus talks about blotting there name out. Then what is the "Lambs book"? Jesus told the 12 rejoice your names are written in Heaven.

Seems David talked about this "Book of Life" may there names not be listed with the righteous. Hmm.. Is that really where WE that believe in JESUS are written in? Implys.. you can use that word for anything you want. There are so many things written that are not as they appear to be. Meaning you have to look up how it was org written to who things like this. Yes it is ALL for us today. Some words like "outter darkness" do you know what that part was talking about? WHERE it really was? Like that FIRE Jesus once talked about that is always burning? WHERE it was? Just out side of town where it was always keep lit. Not ALWAYS like this yet.. to many do not search.

Endure till the end. Look it up you search. What you will find is ADDED words. Words that are not there as in "SAVED" "Salvation". Things like that. Then Jesus spiting you out of His mouth. Some add a word "HELL" "lost for ever". And there are more. See to ADD to what He said.. is VERY unwise. Again blot out.. salvation is what that means? NO.. no as in NO ONE can tell you. They DONT KNOW! Its their best GUESS! Why would David talk about a book that would seem unrighteous could be also written in it? And why is NO ONE ever talked about being blotted out of the LAMBS book? We dont know is why. Why if we are the righteous are we focsing so much on how easy it is to be lost and yet dont know how EASY it is to be saved?

Because we think like act like this world. Not the REAL one we come from. Sorry but for a GOD that some say is SO REAL...why can you not just ask Him? Just WHERE Is this GOD that died for you that you talk about? He is so real and IN YOU yet.. you dont really believe it. You really dont know. I read here about "works" and "fruits" well there you go.. this is one of them. WHERE IS HE? You look in the mirror what do you see? Sin mistakes? Or HIM? He can not lie. Read what HE said and be a child and hush.. just believe. For you are in HIS HANDS. And Yeshua (JESUS) His hands are in the Fathers and no one takes them out of His hands. I have never heard my Father say "oops dropped one"

So where again is this GOD? "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Jesus said He is in the Father the Father in Him and? HE IS IN YOU! Jesus said a TEMPLE not made with hands? HELLO? YOU! He does not want you to keep to HOLY as DO IT OR BURN! (forgive me Father) ..no no no.. its so HE can freely be there helping showing leading ..all those things. Its when we do things as in SIN.. He HAS to stop.. its not RULES do or be lost. Spit out ..no where is it written with that lost forever. Narrow road wide.. no where did it say Narrow road to salvation.. man said that. TO LIFE? Yeah.. I come to give you LIFE and give it more abundantly. So all one has to do is look out side turn on the TV and see what happens when people do NOT have Christ and how WIDE that road to destruction is. We can see will see what happens to those that do not abide in Christ. That does not say those believers those Christians that do not abide in me can be liken to a branch and dry up and die and be burned.

For me its simple.. abide IN HIM. Those that do not are not saved are not for Him. So on and on. Salvation comes from HIM. Dont let any one even me rob you of this. To take from this you can love Him and sin all you want.. you are walking somewhere you should NEVER walk. But He has never told me I MIGHT loose my salvation if I dont have more works or fruit. Now my REWARDS... yeah.. might have allot or none.. comes back for me as .. do you KNOW HIM! Do that.. find out WHERE HE REALLY IS. BILLIONS OF BILLIONS of miles away or RIGHT IN SIDE YOU! Dont go by what you feel or what anyone says. You read HIS word and He so real if you seek Him seek truth lol HE WILL FIND YOU! DUH already has

 

[Geralt]

good question. everyone agrees about 'sinning wilfully'. but it begs the question 'what sin'?

obviously it relates to the 'knowledge of truth' which the author painstakingly presented in the last chapters, that christ is the promised messiah, priest, son of god..among others.

this relates to the very reason why Hebrews was written-> for the hebrew audience. as it was a common scenario that time that jews who converted to christianity was after sometime reverting back to their former jewish practices and even insisting some by influence to do the same, thus nullifying the new covenant of christ.

'wilfully sinning' in this case is the wllful intent to deliberately nullify the biblical view of christ (unbelief) and less of actually doing works of sin (which many have used as an argument for osas).

it is the sin of NOT HOLDING FAST to the CONFESSION. (Heb 10:23)​

I am asking you. Assuming everything you are saying is accurate and christians cannot sin because all sin has been imputed, why the warning about deliberate sin? What does Hebrews 10:26-31 mean?[/QUOTE]

 

[aiki]

The first thing that is clear - because he repeats it over and over and over again, is that he, God, judges men, CHRISTIAN men, people already in the faith BY THEIR WORKS. That is the standard by which he is judging these Christians throughout the entirety of this long and detailed passages. Jesus Christ judges seven Churches by their works. He speaks of their faith, but it is NOT ENOUGH. He is judging them by their WORKS, by what they DO, not simply by what they believe.

This is uncontroversial. But Paul makes an important qualification about the kind of "judgment of works" of genuine disciples of Christ:

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

While a believer's works will be judged and perhaps suffer total destruction, he/she will nonetheless be saved "though as by fire," or, as we would say, "By the skin of their teeth." Apparently, works are not the sole basis upon which one finds entrance into God's kingdom.

is that these real churches had real faith, but they are falling away from it. And they are in danger of being cast down, cast aside, spewed out of the mouth. Jesus exhorts them to OVERCOME, and says that IF, but ONLY IF, they overcome, THEN they will have the various rewards.

Again, this is an obvious and unremarkable observation. Over and over again in Scripture, believers are warned of the deleterious effects of letting sin come between themselves and their Heavenly Father. But since a believer's acceptance with God has nothing to do with their works and everything to do with their trust in Christ, they may live free of fear, always confident of their place in God's family.

Titus 3:4-6
4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

Ephesians 1:4-6
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.

So real Christians, in real Churches, really pleasing to God, have become DISPLEASING to God, BECAUSE their WORKS are not good, and they are not persisting in doing the WORKS, and SO THEREFORE, because of the bad works, because of what they are doing, they are in danger of losing their salvation and being cast out.

The passages you cite no where say, "So you're kicked out of God's family." There are unpleasant consequences to our sin to be sure, but being un-adopted by God isn't one of them - as the apostle Paul makes quite clear.

They WERE saved, but they have to KEEP THE WORKS in order to STAY saved.

Absolutely false!

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Good works reflect genuine salvation but they by no means obtain it. Salvation is entirely a work of God.

Jesus says this so very clearly, really HAMMERS IT HOME again, and again and again and again and again. Seven times in a row, with repetitive language.

In fact, he does not.

I cannot understand how anybody has even the slightest doubt about the necessity of works, or the need to endure in the faith and works TO THE END, or the fact that if a man falls away, he loses salvation. Jesus Christ, enthroned as God SAYS IT seven times in a row, in as many different ways as it is possible to say.

Yes, good works are a natural consequence of genuine regeneration and one who is truly saved will persevere unto the end. But the idea that failure to maintain good works results in God un-adopting a person is just completely wrong.

All of the true Churches DID believe in them, that's why we doesn't call them liars. But he makes it crystal clear that belief and faith are BY NO MEANS ENOUGH. Without works, and overcoming TO THE END, Jesus says he will spit you out and you will lose your salvation.

Being "spit out" does not equate to being un-adopted. Being spit out is certainly indicative of God's dislike of His children living spiritually apathetic lives, but this does not mean disavowal of them. In fact, at the end of the passage to the Laodiceans, God says, "As many as I love I rebuke and chasten" (vs. 19) NOT "kick out of my family."

There is no other way to read this plain text. I am amazed that people are so stubborn about it.

And I am always saddened by how blind folks like yourself are to the wonderful truth of the Gospel.

No, if you're saved, it is not enough.

It most certainly is!

Romans 3:20-22
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;

Here, he answers the question: None. He says out loud that he BLOTS NAMES OUT of the Book of Life. Those names WERE there, but HE blots them out, because of their works or lack thereof! Because of what they do!

Revelation 3:5
5 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

This verse does not say what God will do concerning the Book of Life but what He won't do: blot out the names of His overcoming children from it. As far as I'm aware, there is no verse which specifically says, "I will blot out the name of my children from the Book of Life."

And please don't quote Paul to try to overrule God Jesus, enthroned in Heaven, giving dictation to the last living Apostle.

Sorry, this won't work. What makes the apostle John's writing more inspired, more trustworthy, than Paul's? Both claim to be speaking the truth of God. Both are accepted and established apostles. You have only John's word that what he claims was a revelation from God actually was. And so, too, with Paul. It is dishonest, therefore, to try to dismiss on such a spurious basis the apostle who gives your ideas problems.

Selah.

 

[SAAN]

Can I be 75% lazy and retain my salvation? How about 25% lazy? How arrogant can I get before I lose my salvation?
How many sins will it take for me to lose my salvation? 'Cause when I sin I'm not following Jesus. How much good workd do I need to do?

God knows your heart. There is a difference with having a heart that desires to follow him vs a rebellious heart that your lifestyle is no different than the unbeliever.

Big difference between commit a sin like sexual immorality, stealing, coveting, etc and repenting and strive to do it no more vs committing those on a near daily basis with no regrets.

Jesus already said in Matthew 7, he will reject all those that honor him with lip service

 

[bbbbbbb]

Your point is?

John 10:27-29
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

Recognize what it says and understand what it doesn't say. Then, compare it with biblical scripture, does your interpretation contradict scripture? If if does, then there's a problem. My question is: Do we still believe that we cannot lose our salvation after being given THE SPIRIT OF GOD? If so, what does the above verses mean if not what it says? (#1)

John 10:27-29 is saying no one can force us to lose our salvation. In other words, once we accept Yeshua as our Lord and Savior, there's nothing the devil can do in order to make us lose our salvation, because God is more powerful than the devil. Notice what this scripture doesn't mention, it doesn't mention that we don't* have the freewill to walk away from God and to lose our salvation.

I did not force my views or interpretation on you or anyone here. I simply posted pure scripture - the very words of Jesus Christ. If you or anyone else does not believe them, then it is not my problem.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The point is that there is Scriptural proof of Eternal Security.

Exactly.

 

[bbbbbbb]

No one can snatch us out, but we can still wonder away.

Does it really say that or is that sometime you would like to insert into the verse? Remember what happens to those who would add to the Word of God.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Well ask yourself...when do we get eternal life?

Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.
Revelation 2:7 NIV

So we dont actually receive eternal life until after we die and are judged. It is only after we are judged that we receive the gift of eternal life. Only after then will we never loose that gift. Also notice who receives the right to eat from the tree of life...the victorious. Victorious as in the ones who "finished the race" and "persevered to the end". However, for those who did not persevere, they are not victorious. When they are judged, they will not be given the right to eat from the tree of life. Rather it will go simething like this:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Matthew 7:21‭-‬23 NIV

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes Him Who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgement, but has passed from death to life.

Please note that Jesus does not tell us that such a person will have eternal life after he dies, but the he has eternal life when he believes.

 

[Received]

OSAS seems based on the idea of salvation as a "getting to heaven after you die," rather than the Biblical understanding as a qualitatively different life that begins in the present and expands into eternity. If the former is true, it's all a matter of God keeping score in a divine record book, and of course he isn't going to change his mind, but then you have the epistemic terror involved in determining whether you really are written in this book, and we can see the protestant work ethic as one example of what happens as a result of this theology.

However, if you understand salvation as salve-ation, a salve being a healing agent, implying wholeness or healing in the present moment via a relationship with God (John 17:3), then once saved not always saved is more compatible. But here you have the fear that you can be saved your entire life, lose your salvation, and get into a car crash and spend eternity in hell; I think this arbitrariness is a good enough psychological reason to push for OSAS, but I think the resolution of this problem is pretty simple: God is going to try and save as many people as possible, in this life or the next, whether or not they're on "team salvation" when the drift off into that good night.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

It really doesn't matter since people won't find out until after they die.

Before then, watch what they do every day.
Any group. Any assembly. (this rules out a lot)
See if they live self-sacrificial lives as Y'SHUA says to, if the poor love them because they can count on a meal or a glass of water from them, and if they have it - a place to sleep on cold nights. i.e. are they honest ?

 

[bbbbbbb]

"Salvation is by grace through faith and faith is made real by obedience." - Scripture.

Which scripture states that?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Anywho...if god gives free will then yes at any time a believer can lose their salvation.

That, indeed, is a very big if.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Anywho to answer the original question, since we have free will , yes we can lose our salvation-- though no fault of Gods but...life can get hard, really hard.

Life doesn't get easier after you get saved , tou still have trials-- and some are hellacious enough to push you away from God.

Not saying you cant overcome them but honestly life can bring you to your knees...

So I hate when people say those who walk away were never Christians to begin with...thats not true. Many start out with a zeal and love for God, worship and what not ...

And it may start slow , maybe they God doesn't talk to them as much and then becomes silent....then church members turn on them or worse bully them...and to top it off a loves one dies... All while God is seemingly silent..

That's enough to drive anyone crazy.....and the sad part is the stuff I listed isnt uncommon...and I think the fact God is silent throughout it all is the stake in the coffin...

Alot of people seem to think Just because God talks your head off he does the same for others...i dont think that's true... We are all different so he communicates with us in different ways.. Like what if god has a child who suffers from mental illness, obviously him "talking" to them wont be beneficial.

In addition, people seem to forget the book of Esther, god didnt speak once in that book...but he was behind the scenes in her life..

Just food for thought.

You start with the flawed assumption that man is in a state of innocence like Adam before the Fall, and has free will.

 

[bbbbbbb]

A vineyard must be pruned every winter before the vines leaf out. It cannot be pruned once for all time.

Benjamin Franklin wrote, "Many words will not fill a harvest bucket (paraphrased)."
From a Chinese fortune cookie: "He who waits for roast duck to fly into mouth; starves."

Matthew 21:28 But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first, and said, 'Son, go work today in my vineyard.' 29 He answered, 'I will not,' but afterward he changed his mind, and went. 30 He came to the second, and said the same thing. He answered, 'I go, sir,' but he didn't go. 31 Which of the two did the will of his father?" They said to him, "The first." Jesus said to them, "Most certainly I tell you that the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering into the Kingdom of God before you. 32 For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you didn't believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes believed him. When you saw it, you didn't even repent afterward, that you might believe him.

Interestingly, fortune cookies are an American invention. You will never find them in China.

 

[bbbbbbb]

So true no man can snatch a soul from the fathers hands, however, the soul itself can snatch his own self, from the Fathers hands, therefore "Once Saved All Ways Saved", is a lie that satan wants all christians to believe.

In other words no man is able to, but the Father never said YOU can't. Thus the reason why not all who say Lord Lord will be saved.

So, where is it stated in scripture that God is incapable of keeping His own ones safe and it is up to them to prevent themselves from falling out of His hand?

 

[AngelOf Laodicea]

The branches Jesus refered to were the disciples.
Yet He taught that they (the ones He spoke to) could be cut off.

I suppose that they who believe in OSAS may either think Jesus was wrong or do not believe the bible to be inspired.
This is my observation because what Jesus taught and to whom is as plain as day.

The Scriptures in the OP are pretty cut and dry. Nobody has addressed them so far that believes in OSAS.
All anyone has done is quote other scriptures that David or others addressed or made accusations based on nothing whatsoever.

It appears that David attracts many people to his threads that simply like to argue while being completely unequipted and unable to give an answer or provide an answer to simple questions asked.

I am sorry if this post ruffels feathers, but I simply haven't seen any compelling argument from the opposition

 

[Vicomte13]

Don't forget that works are essential though, for faith without works is dead.
You can be given a world full of seeds, but if you don't get out and plant the garden the seeds produce no fruit.

As the Irish say: "You don't plow a field by turning it over in your mind."