once saved always saved

[DeaconDean]

Eph. 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before [d]Him. In love 5 [e]He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the [f]kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In [g]Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He [h]lavished on [i]us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He [j] made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His [k]kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration [l]suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things [m]in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 [n]also we [o] have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in [p]Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In [q]Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also [r]believed, you were sealed in [s]Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is [t] given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.


Paul makes several points here.


1. The believer is blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places through Christ.


The Greek verb "εὐλογήσας" rendered as "has blessed" affecting "ἡμᾶς" (us) directly and inflected as first aorist rendered in the active voice and in the nominative and nominative case leaves no doubt that not are we being blessed but continue to be blessed with every spiritual blessing.



2. just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before [d]Him.


"ἐξελέξατο" (He chose) is again rendered in the first aorist but here is rendered in the indicative mood reflecting a past action. He has chosen not He is choosing. He chose us for holiness and to be blameless. We can not do that on our own so Paul teaches how we are holy and blameless in the next couple of verses.


3. 5 [e]He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the [f]kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.



"προορίσας"- predestined which is actually translated literally as "having predestined" is also rendered as a first aorist, in an active voice signifying that the subject is in the state described by the verb, it is a participle, and in the nominative case which is a predicative nominative following the form of the verb "to become" that renames the subject. The action is active, binding, and undisolvable.


υἱοθεσίαν- adoption as sons. Rendered here as a noun not an adjective. We are not His adopted sons but the adopted sons. The case is accusative which marks the noun as the recipient of the προορίσας.



The mechanism and object of our predestination is Jesus Christ. The preposition διὰ, rendered here as through, ties both sentence segments. This is an action that He freely bestowed according to HIS kind intention of His will not according to our kind intention of our will.


4. In Him 11 [n]also we [o] have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

ἐκληρώθημεν- we have obtained an inheritance. Again rendered in a first aorist and also in the passive voice which makes the receiver the action of the verbal action. The inheritance has been given not it will be given.

5. 13 In [q]Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also [r]believed, you were sealed in [s]Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is [t] given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

We are given the pledge of our inheritance. The Greek word for pledge (ἀρραβὼ&#957 used here is defined as "a guarantee" "an earnest" "given in advance as a security that the whole will be paid afterwards". The "earnest or security" given for us as God's own possession. We are sealed in the Holy Spirit. The Greek word for sealed (ἐσφραγίσθητ&#949, again rendered in a first aorist and also in an indicative mood and an passive voice, depicts a terminated action which was acted upon the subject with no subject involvement.

We have already been adopted by the Father. The Father does NOT remove His adoption because it is a pledge sealed by the Holy Spirit. You can let go of His hand but He will never let go of yours.

Excellent!

At what time during his riotous life, did the prodigal son cease to be his Father's son?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

One must persevere in faith to be saved.; True believers cannot lose their faith, since it is God’s gift.; Those dying without faith in Christ are condemned.; Those who lose their faith never had it to begin with.; God will preserve true believers and they will be saved.

The first statement "One must persevere in faith to be saved." places the responsibility of perseverance on the believer (One must persevere). The last statement "God will preserve true believers and they will be saved." places it on God (God will preserve) That is a contradiction, is it not?

True believers cannot lose their faith, since it is God's gift. If one MUST persevere in the faith to be saved, how can this statement be true. Either you have to persevere to be saved, or you can not lose your faith PERIOD (perseverance or no). This is a contradiction.

Those who lose their faith never had it to begin with. In order to lose something a person has to have it first right? I can not lose my marbles (no laughing) if I never had them to begin with. I can not lose my car keys without first having car keys to lose. Simple facts of life, you must have something in order to lose it. So this statement just contradicts itself. Not to mention the previous statement of True believers cannot lose their faith, since it is God's gift. would seem to contradict this point's specific statement in that if "true believers" can't lose their faith, they have had faith at one point. Thus, those who lose their faith can be true believers because true believers have faith at some time. (I hope that made sense)

In saying all this, does Jesus, or God for that matter, make empty promises/threats?

Jesus said in John 15:5 that those who remain in Him and He in them will bear much fruit. He then says two things in two seperate verses in the same context. In verse 2 of that chapter, Jesus says that those in Him who do NOT bear fruit will be cut off. In verse 6 of that chapter Jesus says that those who do not remain in Him, he will be cast off and thrown into the fire. So if you remain in Jesus your life will be characterized by bearing fruit. If you do not remain in Jesus, you will bear no fruit and thus be cut off and cast into the fire.

Jesus says in Revelation 3:5 if you endure He will not blot your name out of the book of life, so once again does Jesus make empty promises, or threats even, without the intention of bringing them to pass. It would seem to me if Jesus says endure to inherit eternal life, He means just that, not well these are just guidelines, I won't actually blot out your name...

 

[DeaconDean]

One must persevere in faith to be saved.; True believers cannot lose their faith, since it is God’s gift.; Those dying without faith in Christ are condemned.; Those who lose their faith never had it to begin with.; God will preserve true believers and they will be saved.

The first statement "One must persevere in faith to be saved." places the responsibility of perseverance on the believer (One must persevere). The last statement "God will preserve true believers and they will be saved." places it on God (God will preserve) That is a contradiction, is it not?

True believers cannot lose their faith, since it is God's gift. If one MUST persevere in the faith to be saved, how can this statement be true. Either you have to persevere to be saved, or you can not lose your faith PERIOD (perseverance or no). This is a contradiction.

Those who lose their faith never had it to begin with. In order to lose something a person has to have it first right? I can not lose my marbles (no laughing) if I never had them to begin with. I can not lose my car keys without first having car keys to lose. Simple facts of life, you must have something in order to lose it. So this statement just contradicts itself. Not to mention the previous statement of True believers cannot lose their faith, since it is God's gift. would seem to contradict this point's specific statement in that if "true believers" can't lose their faith, they have had faith at one point. Thus, those who lose their faith can be true believers because true believers have faith at some time. (I hope that made sense)

In saying all this, does Jesus, or God for that matter, make empty promises/threats?

Jesus said in John 15:5 that those who remain in Him and He in them will bear much fruit. He then says two things in two seperate verses in the same context. In verse 2 of that chapter, Jesus says that those in Him who do NOT bear fruit will be cut off. In verse 6 of that chapter Jesus says that those who do not remain in Him, he will be cast off and thrown into the fire. So if you remain in Jesus your life will be characterized by bearing fruit. If you do not remain in Jesus, you will bear no fruit and thus be cut off and cast into the fire.

Jesus says in Revelation 3:5 if you endure He will not blot your name out of the book of life, so once again does Jesus make empty promises, or threats even, without the intention of bringing them to pass. It would seem to me if Jesus says endure to inherit eternal life, He means just that, not well these are just guidelines, I won't actually blot out your name...

I just want to say, my position is and always will be:

Those whom God hath accepted in the Beloved, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere to the end; and though they may fall, through neglect and temptation, into sin, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, bring reproach on the Church, and temporal judgments on themselves, yet they shall be renewed again unto repentance, and be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.

Abstract of Principles, 1858, James P. Boyce, Section XIII, Perseverance of the Saints

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[greatdivide46]

Greatdivide46... Looking back I see that we agree on a couple of things…

Salvation is by grace, through faith, not by works.
Believers receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Now Publius has added this… do you agree with it as well? I do.

The gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Let’s go ahead and add a few more… do you agree with these as well?

God is on the throne.
The Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Eternal Life is not by definition a future time.
It is not temporary life in Christ, but eternal life in Christ.
God will not forsake.

Yes, I agree that the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. That, however, says nothing about the human response to those gifts and calling.

I agree with all the others you mentioned, too. But again these are attributes and characteristics of God and do not address man's responsibility.

As for eternal life; I'm beginning to think that the "eternal" aspect of that life is a characteristic of that life itself and is not referring to the duration of our possession of it.

 

[greatdivide46]

At what time during his riotous life, did the prodigal son cease to be his Father's son?

Maybe it was when he died. The father did say that he was dead. Or maybe he never ceased being his father's son, but the fact is, he squandered his inheritance, so he lost that.

 

[Lindas Place]

Yes, I agree that the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. That, however, says nothing about the human response to those gifts and calling.

I agree with all the others you mentioned, too. But again these are attributes and characteristics of God and do not address man's responsibility.

As for eternal life; I'm beginning to think that the "eternal" aspect of that life is a characteristic of that life itself and is not referring to the duration of our possession of it.

Greatdivide46... So we agree on these things…

Salvation is by grace, through faith, not by works.
Believers receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
The gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
God is on the throne.
God will not forsake.
The Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Onlybygrace added these… which I agree, do you agree?

There will be evidence of salvation.
The Holy Spirit produces the Fruit of the Spirit
Faith is by definition is not fleeting
There are those who say they know Him that do not.

These you disagree with, let’s discuss…

Eternal Life is not by definition a future time.
It is not temporary life in Christ, but eternal life in Christ.

Can eternal life be temporary?

That contradicts the words of Jesus which states that he who believeth on the Son of God HAS eternal life. John 3:36

Jesus' definition of eternal life in John 17:2-3

2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

 

[greatdivide46]

These you disagree with, let’s discuss…

Eternal Life is not by definition a future time.
It is not temporary life in Christ, but eternal life in Christ.

Can eternal life be temporary?

No, eternal life cannot be temporary, however, I do believe that our possession of it can be temporary. We do not have eternal life eternally since we were not born with it and our possession of it had a beginning in our life.

That contradicts the words of Jesus which states that he who believeth on the Son of God HAS eternal life. John 3:36

Precisely. Eternal life is something we possess. It is not something we are.

Jesus' definition of eternal life in John 17:2-3

2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Exactly. Eternal life is something we are given. Therefore it is a possession and possessions can be lost.

 

[Lindas Place]

No, eternal life cannot be temporary, however, I do believe that our possession of it can be temporary. We do not have eternal life eternally since we were not born with it and our possession of it had a beginning in our life.

Precisely. Eternal life is something we possess. It is not something we are.

Exactly. Eternal life is something we are given. Therefore it is a possession and possessions can be lost.

How do you lose the gift of eternal life? if it's eternal life?

 

[Hentenza]

No, eternal life cannot be temporary, however, I do believe that our possession of it can be temporary. We do not have eternal life eternally since we were not born with it and our possession of it had a beginning in our life.

Precisely. Eternal life is something we possess. It is not something we are.

Exactly. Eternal life is something we are given. Therefore it is a possession and possessions can be lost.

Eternal life is indeed something that we are. Salvation is not something that we possess. We are a new creature (2 Cor. 5:17).

17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, [h]he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and [i]He has [j]committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Are you suggesting that a new creature, which is by necessity a work of God, can be reverted back to the old creature even after being born again of the Spirit?

Old creature------->new creature------->old creature?

 

[phoenixdem]

No, eternal life cannot be temporary, however, I do believe that our possession of it can be temporary. We do not have eternal life eternally since we were not born with it and our possession of it had a beginning in our life.

Precisely. Eternal life is something we possess. It is not something we are.

Exactly. Eternal life is something we are given. Therefore it is a possession and possessions can be lost.

Is that what Jesus said, or did He said this,

John

6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that
cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the
will of him that sent me.
6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he
hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at​

the last day.

 

[DeaconDean]

Eternal life is something we are given. Therefore it is a possession and possessions can be lost.

So, God can lose one of His own possessions?

Isn't that contray to scripture.

"For ye are bought with a price:" -1 Cor. 6:20 (KJV)

And does not the scripture also say:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." -Jn. 6: 28-29 (KJV)

Now I'm not taking about going out and purposely sinning, rather, once God has bought us, become His possession, He is able to lose us?

Are we not bought?

So God is able to be like sinful man and lose someone He has bought?!?

God just lost all His onmipotence.

Man being able to take Himself out of God's hand makes him more powerful than the Creator of all things.

God has been de-throned.

Bravo!

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[greatdivide46]

How do you lose the gift of eternal life? if it's eternal life?

I've come to think that "lose" is the wrong word. I think maybe "return" better communicates what I believe concerning loss of salvation. We don't lose it so much as return it back to the giver. I'm with you, though, in that I can't imagine why anyone would ever want to do that, but I simply cannot deny the possibility based on the Word of God's plethora of warnings not to do it.

 

[greatdivide46]

Are you suggesting that a new creature, which is by necessity a work of God, can be reverted back to the old creature even after being born again of the Spirit?

Old creature------->new creature------->old creature?

No, I'm not suggesting that. I'm simply stating that the Word of God warns against that possibility. What I'm having a problem with is if it is impossible for that to happen, why all the warnings against it?

 

[greatdivide46]

Is that what Jesus said, or did He said this,

John

6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that
cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the
will of him that sent me.
6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he
hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at​

the last day.

This passage is true. However, it says nothing about man's response or responsibility in salvation. It only talks about what God the Father and God the Son will do.

 

[greatdivide46]

So, God can lose one of His own possessions?

Of course not. God is not man.

Now I'm not taking about going out and purposely sinning, rather, once God has bought us, become His possession, He is able to lose us?

No, God is not man.

Are we not bought?

So God is able to be like sinful man and lose someone He has bought?!?

Nope, God is not like sinful man.

Man being able to take Himself out of God's hand makes him more powerful than the Creator of all things.

God has been de-throned.

I disagree. Man being able to take himself out of God's hand says nothing at all about the power of the Creator of all things. I does say something about His willingness to let His creatures have their own way, though, even if He doesn't like it! What a great and powerful God who can be that way.

 

[Lindas Place]

Of course not. God is not man.

No, God is not man.

Nope, God is not like sinful man.

I disagree. Man being able to take himself out of God's hand says nothing at all about the power of the Creator of all things. I does say something about His willingness to let His creatures have their own way, though, even if He doesn't like it! What a great and powerful God who can be that way.

Greatdivide… I disagree, that would not be a great powerful god… that would be a weak, dead beat dad… and he has let the kids take control to their on demise... the kids are on the throne.

You already agreed that “God is on the throne” now you are contradicting that…

You cannot claim you could push God away, walk away or jump out of His hand, then claim that was not something you did in your power over God's...

If an argument presented creates a contradiction in the biblical text, that argument must change… and your argument creates a contradiction. Either God is on the throne or not.

 

[Hentenza]

No, I'm not suggesting that. I'm simply stating that the Word of God warns against that possibility. What I'm having a problem with is if it is impossible for that to happen, why all the warnings against it?

But the word of God does not warn about that possibility in a general way. The warnings are usually given to a specific group or for a specific purpose.

Jude 1
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,

It is God who is able to keep us from stumbling. It is God that makes you stand in His presence. The English translations do not so this verse justice since the one to one, meaning to meaning translation ratio is difficult. The Greek word φυλάξαι, rendered here as "to keep", carries the meaning of "to guard" "to keep watch" "to guard closely" in Koine Greek. The word δυναμένῳ, rendered here as "is able", does not carry the temporal option that it does on English. The word carries the sense of "empower", "power" and is a cognate of δύναμις which carries the meaning and sense of physical power and force. In other words, it is God's power that keeps the believer from stumbling not our own power.

Paul tells us in Eph. 4:

30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, [w]by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Here he exhorts the believer to not grieve the Spirit but he also reveals a deeper truth. Paul reveals that the believer was sealed for the day of redemption. If a believer can loose salvation then Paul is mistaken and the verse should read "by whom you were sealed until the day of apostasy, or until the day that one continually sins, or until the day that one decides that they will no longer follow Christ". That is not the case. The preposition εἰς, rendered here as "for", indicates a point reached or entered. The idea is absolute. The believer is sealed for the day of redemption not the believer might be sealed for the day of redemption.

We can look at each instance of warning in the NT if you wish but warnings do not constitute soteriological removal of one that has been sealed in the Spirit for the day of redemption. Paul goes even further and reveals to us in 1 Cor. 3 the exact method of judgment for those sealed in the Spirit for the day of redemption. Granted, some might be mighty crispy but they are saved nonetheless.

 

[Hentenza]

Of course not. God is not man.

No, God is not man.

Nope, God is not like sinful man.

I disagree. Man being able to take himself out of God's hand says nothing at all about the power of the Creator of all things. I does say something about His willingness to let His creatures have their own way, though, even if He doesn't like it! What a great and powerful God who can be that way.

I have a question for you regarding your statements above. Does God have multiple realities? Does He awaits our choice to complete His will?

Ok, that's two questions. lol

 

[phoenixdem]

I've come to think that "lose" is the wrong word. I think maybe "return" better communicates what I believe concerning loss of salvation. We don't lose it so much as return it back to the giver. I'm with you, though, in that I can't imagine why anyone would ever want to do that, but I simply cannot deny the possibility based on the Word of God's plethora of warnings not to do it.

What will you do with those verses that say the opposite? Do you just ignore them, or do you try to reconcile the verses?

 

[WinBySurrender]

So an adopted son could never walk away from his adopted family and disown them?

That's not "disowning." The father didn't do it, the son did. Such a child of God would have little or no reward in heaven, and would likely be called home early (ala the threat Paul made to the young Corinthian man who was sleeping with his stepmother) to preserve his soul. But salvation cannot be lost, no matter how some might twist or misinterpret Scripture.