once saved always saved

[DCJazz]

It's kind of like this. A man adopts a child, but at the first naughty thing un-adopts him. But the child says he's sorry so the man re-adopts him, rinse lather repeat.

That's just silly, isn't it?

 

[His_disciple3]

It's kind of like this. A man adopts a child, but at the first naughty thing un-adopts him. But the child says he's sorry so the man re-adopts him, rinse lather repeat.

That's just silly, isn't it?

I had a friend of mine who just so happened to be adopted, preached a meassage on adoption, He pointed out that one can disown their own children, but you can not disown an adopted child, plus there is Biblical Proof from scriptures that sin/being naughty will not cause us to lose our relationship/salvation with the Father. the prayer that Jesus taught the disciples and told them to pray, talks about our daily bread. so this is a daily prayer, in the prayer we are told ( daily) to ask for forgiveness from our debts/trespasses, but whom do we ask this forgiveness from? OUR FATHER, so even though we stand in need of forgiveness from our daily sin/debt/trespasses, HE is still our Father, the relationship has not been severed by our sin after He is our Father, what powers can seperate us From the love of the Father, so it is not rinse lather and repeat. it is we are naughty, we pray to the Father , who is just and faithful to forgive. actually to say one can get saved over and over is very unbibical. and isn't it suppose to be lather, rinse and repeat. I don't think you even got that part right.

 

[His_disciple3]

I agree with you as to whom the letter to the Hebrews was written to. My question is if it is not possible for them to revert back to ritual Judaism why even warn them about such a thing? And according to OSAS once they were saved they will always be saved. In other words it would be impossible for them to revert back to ritual Judaism. Hence, there would be no point in warning them not to do that since there is no danger that they can even do that.

the warning is for their physical life, 1 cor 5:5 tells us that God will turn us over to satan for the destruction of the body, that the spirit might be saved, so see our salvation is from God and the perseverance of that soul is also up to God, so right before one can turn from God, before one takes that last step that will lead Him from God forever. God will allow the flesh to be destroyed, Hebrews 6 has an very important phrase in it that most people completely overlook, If God permits, He won't permit one of His children to die without Him, He will never leave us nor forsake us. fear not the one(satan) that can destroy the Body, but rather fear the One(GOD) that can destroy the body and Soul.

 

[WinBySurrender]

It's kind of like this. A man adopts a child, but at the first naughty thing un-adopts him. But the child says he's sorry so the man re-adopts him, rinse lather repeat.

That's just silly, isn't it?

Completely. Regarding adoption as it is used of us in the New Testament, it was drawn from Jewish and Roman law, in which the adopted son had more rights than a natural son. For example, an adopted son could not be disowned. Kinda puts the kabosh on the concept that salvation can be lost, don't it?

 

[greatdivide46]

Completely. Regarding adoption as it is used of us in the New Testament, it was drawn from Jewish and Roman law, in which the adopted son had more rights than a natural son. For example, an adopted son could not be disowned. Kinda puts the kabosh on the concept that salvation can be lost, don't it?

So an adopted son could never walk away from his adopted family and disown them? That's what it takes to lose salvation. Not the disowning of the parents nor simply being naughty. Loss of salvation is the total, purposeful rejection of a salvation once held.

 

[Hentenza]

So an adopted son could never walk away from his adopted family and disown them? That's what it takes to lose salvation. Not the disowning of the parents nor simply being naughty. Loss of salvation is the total, purposeful rejection of a salvation once held.

Can salvation be obtained through works? If not, can works trump salvation?

 

[Lindas Place]

So an adopted son could never walk away from his adopted family and disown them? That's what it takes to lose salvation. Not the disowning of the parents nor simply being naughty. Loss of salvation is the total, purposeful rejection of a salvation once held.

I would never un-adopt my adopted son, no matter where or how far he walks…. And I would have to un-adopt him in order for him not to be my son… which would be easier than being un-born again… that would take an act of God to remove His Spirit, remove our new heart, remove the new man and bring back the old man… and it would also make His word unreliable…

The seed is incorruptible, God will not pluck up a seed He has planted. Only those that He did not plant will be uprooted. I'm quoting Jesus' own Word on that. (Matt. 15:13)

Matthew 15:13
13 He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.

1 John 5:1
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.

John 1:12-14
12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God — 13 children born NOT of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, BUT born of God.

1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, NOT of perishable seed, BUT of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

 

[Lindas Place]

Can salvation be obtained through works? If not, can works trump salvation?

Good questions...

Neither side in this argument is sinless. Yet, strangely, one side preaches that they earn and deserve their salvation. If we are saying that we in any way are earning or deserving our salvation? Then we’re a hypocritical Pharisee.

If we aren't saying that......welcome to OSAS.

 

[greatdivide46]

Can salvation be obtained through works? If not, can works trump salvation?

Nope and nope.

 

[DCJazz]

I had a friend of mine who just so happened to be adopted, preached a meassage on adoption, He pointed out that one can disown their own children, but you can not disown an adopted child, plus there is Biblical Proof from scriptures that sin/being naughty will not cause us to lose our relationship/salvation with the Father. the prayer that Jesus taught the disciples and told them to pray, talks about our daily bread. so this is a daily prayer, in the prayer we are told ( daily) to ask for forgiveness from our debts/trespasses, but whom do we ask this forgiveness from? OUR FATHER, so even though we stand in need of forgiveness from our daily sin/debt/trespasses, HE is still our Father, the relationship has not been severed by our sin after He is our Father, what powers can seperate us From the love of the Father, so it is not rinse lather and repeat. it is we are naughty, we pray to the Father , who is just and faithful to forgive. actually to say one can get saved over and over is very unbibical. and isn't it suppose to be lather, rinse and repeat. I don't think you even got that part right.

I didn't say that you could lose your salvation at all. I was pointing out how ridiculous it was... if you had bothered to read my previous post.

 

[DCJazz]

In fact I think I'll just quote it for you, so that you don't have to bother looking back the ONE page.

I think it's biblical, yes.
After all, the original sin inherent in all mankind is forgiven through Christ. And it's that sin that separates us from God in the first place.

If there's a way to dislodge myself from that, then I have to question the authority of God and, by extension, question the point of Christ.

This verse comes to mind:

For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:38-39, NIV I think.)

I count as a created being, don't I? So then to say that I can re-separate myself from God is blasphemy.

 

[greatdivide46]

I would never un-adopt my adopted son, no matter where or how far he walks…. And I would have to un-adopt him in order for him not to be my son… which would be easier than being un-born again… that would take an act of God to remove His Spirit, remove our new heart, remove the new man and bring back the old man… and it would also make His word unreliable…

Of course you wouldn't un-adopt him. I wouldn't un-adopt my son either. But he has, in effect, un-adopted me. He has taken back his birth name and is no longer known by the name I raised him under. Nevertheless, he is still in my will and will receive whatever inheritance I may have when I die. So, although I still consider him my son, he no longer considers me his father. And Christians can do exactly the same thing in reference to God.

 

[Lindas Place]

Of course you wouldn't un-adopt him. I wouldn't un-adopt my son either. But he has, in effect, un-adopted me. He has taken back his birth name and is no longer known by the name I raised him under. Nevertheless, he is still in my will and will receive whatever inheritance I may have when I die. So, although I still consider him my son, he no longer considers me his father. And Christians can do exactly the same thing in reference to God.

his name has nothing to do with him being you child... and you just show how God deals with his children... they are still in His will and receive their inheritance... unless you think you are a more loving father than God the Father... you should then know that God does not unsave his children either... beautiful picture of the Fathers love!

 

[greatdivide46]

his name has nothing to do with him being you child... and you just show how God deals with his children... they are still in His will and receive their inheritance... unless you think you are a more loving father than God the Father... you should then know that God does not unsave his children either... beautiful picture of the Fathers love!

So a person is a child of God whether they call themselves a Christian or not? Apparently what they call themselves has nothing do with them being God's children.

There are those who abandon God just like my son has abandoned me. But according to OSAS it is not possible for one to abandon God. And yet my son has abandoned me. There's no doubt about that. And that's what loss of salvation is. It isn't about God abandoning us. It's about us abandoning God.

 

[Hentenza]

Eph. 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before [d]Him. In love 5 [e]He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the [f]kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In [g]Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He [h]lavished on [i]us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He [j] made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His [k]kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration [l]suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things [m]in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 [n]also we [o] have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in [p]Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In [q]Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also [r]believed, you were sealed in [s]Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is [t] given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.


Paul makes several points here.


1. The believer is blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places through Christ.


The Greek verb "εὐλογήσας" rendered as "has blessed" affecting "ἡμᾶς" (us) directly and inflected as first aorist rendered in the active voice and in the nominative and nominative case leaves no doubt that not are we being blessed but continue to be blessed with every spiritual blessing.



2. just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before [d]Him.


"ἐξελέξατο" (He chose) is again rendered in the first aorist but here is rendered in the indicative mood reflecting a past action. He has chosen not He is choosing. He chose us for holiness and to be blameless. We can not do that on our own so Paul teaches how we are holy and blameless in the next couple of verses.


3. 5 [e]He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the [f]kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.



"προορίσας"- predestined which is actually translated literally as "having predestined" is also rendered as a first aorist, in an active voice signifying that the subject is in the state described by the verb, it is a participle, and in the nominative case which is a predicative nominative following the form of the verb "to become" that renames the subject. The action is active, binding, and undisolvable.


υἱοθεσίαν- adoption as sons. Rendered here as a noun not an adjective. We are not His adopted sons but the adopted sons. The case is accusative which marks the noun as the recipient of the προορίσας.



The mechanism and object of our predestination is Jesus Christ. The preposition διὰ, rendered here as through, ties both sentence segments. This is an action that He freely bestowed according to HIS kind intention of His will not according to our kind intention of our will.


4. In Him 11 [n]also we [o] have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

ἐκληρώθημεν- we have obtained an inheritance. Again rendered in a first aorist and also in the passive voice which makes the receiver the action of the verbal action. The inheritance has been given not it will be given.

5. 13 In [q]Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also [r]believed, you were sealed in [s]Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is [t] given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

We are given the pledge of our inheritance. The Greek word for pledge (ἀρραβὼ&#957 used here is defined as "a guarantee" "an earnest" "given in advance as a security that the whole will be paid afterwards". The "earnest or security" given for us as God's own possession. We are sealed in the Holy Spirit. The Greek word for sealed (ἐσφραγίσθητ&#949, again rendered in a first aorist and also in an indicative mood and an passive voice, depicts a terminated action which was acted upon the subject with no subject involvement.

We have already been adopted by the Father. The Father does NOT remove His adoption because it is a pledge sealed by the Holy Spirit. You can let go of His hand but He will never let go of yours.

 

[Hentenza]

Eph. 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before [d]Him. In love 5 [e]He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the [f]kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In [g]Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He [h]lavished on [i]us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He [j] made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His [k]kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration [l]suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things [m]in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 [n]also we [o] have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in [p]Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In [q]Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also [r]believed, you were sealed in [s]Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is [t] given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.


Paul makes several points here.


1. The believer is blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places through Christ.


The Greek verb "εὐλογήσας" rendered as "has blessed" affecting "ἡμᾶς" (us) directly and inflected as first aorist rendered in the active voice and in the nominative and nominative case leaves no doubt that not are we being blessed but continue to be blessed with every spiritual blessing.



2. just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before [d]Him.


"ἐξελέξατο" (He chose) is again rendered in the first aorist but here is rendered in the indicative mood reflecting a past action. He has chosen not He is choosing. He chose us for holiness and to be blameless. We can not do that on our own so Paul teaches how we are holy and blameless in the next couple of verses.


3. 5 [e]He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the [f]kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.



"προορίσας"- predestined which is actually translated literally as "having predestined" is also rendered as a first aorist, in an active voice signifying that the subject is in the state described by the verb, it is a participle, and in the nominative case which is a predicative nominative following the form of the verb "to become" that renames the subject. The action is active, binding, and undisolvable.


υἱοθεσίαν- adoption as sons. Rendered here as a noun not an adjective. We are not His adopted sons but the adopted sons. The case is accusative which marks the noun as the recipient of the προορίσας.



The mechanism and object of our predestination is Jesus Christ. The preposition διὰ, rendered here as through, ties both sentence segments. This is an action that He freely bestowed according to HIS kind intention of His will not according to our kind intention of our will.


4. In Him 11 [n]also we [o] have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

ἐκληρώθημεν- we have obtained an inheritance. Again rendered in a first aorist and also in the passive voice which makes the receiver the action of the verbal action. The inheritance has been given not it will be given.

5. 13 In [q]Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also [r]believed, you were sealed in [s]Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is [t] given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

We are given the pledge of our inheritance. The Greek word for pledge (ἀρραβὼ&#957 used here is defined as "a guarantee" "an earnest" "given in advance as a security that the whole will be paid afterwards". The "earnest or security" given for us as God's own possession. We are sealed in the Holy Spirit. The Greek word for sealed (ἐσφραγίσθητ&#949, again rendered in a first aorist and also in an indicative mood and an passive voice, depicts a terminated action which was acted upon the subject with no subject involvement.

We have already been adopted by the Father. The Father does NOT remove His adoption because it is a pledge sealed by the Holy Spirit. You can let go of His hand but He will never let go of yours.

 

[Lindas Place]

So a person is a child of God whether they call themselves a Christian or not? Apparently what they call themselves has nothing do with them being God's children.

There are those who abandon God just like my son has abandoned me. But according to OSAS it is not possible for one to abandon God. And yet my son has abandoned me. There's no doubt about that. And that's what loss of salvation is. It isn't about God abandoning us. It's about us abandoning God.

there is no way we can be unborn again without God abandoning us... His Spirit is IN us... we are not in charge of God... He would have to do it... and He said He will never leave us or forsake us... so wherever we go... He is with us... In us... sealed forever with His Holy Spirit... we cannot undo that...

 

[greatdivide46]

there is no way we can be unborn again without God abandoning us... His Spirit is IN us... we are not in charge of God... He would have to do it... and He said He will never leave us or forsake us... so wherever we go... He is with us... In us... sealed forever with His Holy Spirit... we cannot undo that...

Yes, His Spirit is in us, but, believe it or not, God has been known to withdraw His Spirit from people. There are even examples in the Bible of that.

 

[Publius]

Yes, His Spirit is in us, but, believe it or not, God has been known to withdraw His Spirit from people. There are even examples in the Bible of that.

I can think of places in scripture where God has withdrawn the empowering of the Holy Spirit (that is, the guidance of the Holy Spirit God imparts for ministry), but where in scripture has God ever withdrawn the indwelling of the Holy Spirit we receive upon regeneration?

And how do you reconcile this with the Bible's teaching that the gifts and calling of God are without repentence?

 

[Lindas Place]

Greatdivide46... Looking back I see that we agree on a couple of things…

Salvation is by grace, through faith, not by works.
Believers receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Now Publius has added this… do you agree with it as well? I do.

The gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Let’s go ahead and add a few more… do you agree with these as well?

God is on the throne.
The Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Eternal Life is not by definition a future time.
It is not temporary life in Christ, but eternal life in Christ.
God will not forsake.