Once saved always saved?

[John1and1]

John - I'm not even Calvinist, and I can see that your question #2 is a complete strawman.

You are not only calvinist, but you have no idea where question 2 is leading so how do you judge it as anything?


Since you belive it to be a straw man let me put the same question to you bearing question number 2 in mind.

LOOK at the fact that God PLEADED with Cain and salvation was OFFERED to Cain and God's desire was that he CHOOSE salvation and good and right... Cain HAD the choice...

Genesis 4: 6And the Lord said to Cain, Why are you angry? And why do you look sad and depressed and dejected?

7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin crouches at your door; its desire is for you, but you must master it.



He pleads all the day long with our spirits to repent because He doesnt desire our destruciton, and yet has limited Himself not to force our affections. This God, though just, IS love and humbles Himself for our good... bears long with us, loving the whole world.

So was God taunting Cain, outright lying to Cain, or did Cain REALLY have the opportunity to choose to offer a pleasing sacrifice?

 

[drstevej]

DrSteve

Yes i have an answer. You have potential but did poorly.

Lets look at your questions and answers

1) Is God evil in that He is unjust? GOD IS NEITHER EVIL OR UNJUST. NOR DOES HE TAKE A POLL TO DETERMINE WHAT IS FAIR.

No God takes no poll, yet you claim He is just. Is it just for a God to say His will is that all men repent and no man perish and then not ALLOW whosoever will to come?



2) Is God evil in that He taunts men over things they have no control over? For instance would God taunt a person with downs syndrome and mock them? GOD HONORED ELIJAH'S TAUNTING OF THE PROPHETS OF BAAL. FIRE FELL. AS TO DOWN'S SYNDROME, EX 4:11 GOD TAKES CREDIT FOR THOSE BORN WITHOUS SPEECH, SIGHT AND HEARING.

So i take it you do not believe that God would taunt a man with downs syndrome. Why would He taunt a sinner who had no choice nor chance to be saved? Is this your idea of justice and righteousness?




3) Do you believe every passage in the bible? ORIGINAL TEXT AND UNDERSTOOD IN CONTEXT, YES? DO I UNDERSTAND EVERY PASSAGE? NO.




4) What do you make of this passage, do you believe this one? If so please explain it.

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

FIRST YOU HAVE THE WRONG CHAPTER. IT IS CHAPTER 3. SECOND, CONTEXT MAKES IT PLAIN HE IS SPEAKING OF THE ELECT. AND IT IS A GREAT CALVINIST VERSE. FROM AN ARMINIAN VIEW, JESUS CAN'T RETURN SINCE JUST ONE MORE MIGHT REPENT THE NEXT DAY HAD HE WAITED.


Yes it is 2 Peter 3 thank you. Now you seem to be acerting that God does not mean many of the words He speaks here. For instance, where you take exception to what is literally stated in 2 Peter 3:9

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.

So in other words, you disagree with Peter scribing the word ANY... as in your opinion it is the Fathers will that some perish.

And you also disagree with peter scribing the word ALL, as in your opinion it is the Fathers will that not ALL come to repentance...

In your opinion peter misheard God, or misrepresented what God REALLY meant to say, and should have written, "its not the Fathers will that SOME of you perish but that SOME of you come to repentance"

is this a fair estimation of what you believe? If not please correct me very specificly as to exactly what i have wrong about your 'interpretation' of 2 peter 3:9

1. God is just because the Bible says he is just. He is just whether His actions satisfy your or my subjective feelings or fallible logic.

2. Show me where in the Bible He mocks downs syndrome suffers. I showed you where He says He makes folks dumb, deaf and blind. And He does not apologize.

As to mankind. All are born sinners deserving Hell. You seem to think Heaven is a right. That ain't right.

4. Not only did you miss the chapter you missed the context of 2 Pet 3:9. This is addressed to believers (the elect) who are perplexed at the delay of Christ's return. They are being mocked by unbelievers. Peter assures them that God is not tardy, He is patient. He is bringing ALL the elect to Himself and when He's done, GAME OVER.

An Arminian has to explain how Christ can ever return since God is gonna sing just one more verse of Just as I am just in case there is one more. How can He know if it's time to drop the curtain.

Hint. Study a passage in context. It improves your theology.

 

[John1and1]

1. God is just because the Bible says he is just. He is just whether His actions satisfy your or my subjective feelings or fallible logic.

Then i sure you would likely agree that if God were to design billions of people, and tauntingly give us hope that Jesus died for not just MY sins or OUR sins, but the sins of the world, and then refused to call most of them, desireing rather that most go to hell, And then claims He so loved the world, and whosoever will may come, He certainly couldnt be seen as a just God. If you disagree with me, please define the words "JUST" and " JUSTICE" please

2. Show me where in the Bible He mocks downs syndrome suffers. I showed you where He says He makes folks dumb, deaf and blind. And He does not apologize.

No This IS my point. God does not taunt someone who cannot help the state they were born in. No matter if He designed them with a deficiency as we see it, He will not taunt them.

Now we see we are born into sin. We did not make this choice Adam made it for us. Yet this is certainly a spiritual deficiency. We see that God asked Cain why he was down, and ASSURED him that if he would only do right he would be accepted. Was this a taunt, a lie, or did God REALLY MEAN IT and Cain had this choice to make?
Was God not drawing Cain with these words? Pleaing he would come?

Do you disagree that every man is born with the light of God and he is without excuse to reject it?

Do you agree that God draws EVERY human?

As to mankind. All are born sinners deserving Hell. You seem to think Heaven is a right. That ain't right.

You seem to adore assumption in a manner as to attempt to sidetrack any point made against calvinist doctrine. Where did i say heaven is a right? I said no such thing. However the free ift of salvation is offered equally to EVERY man and it is His desire we accept it, though in His foreknowledge He simply knows this aint gonna happen.

4. This is addressed to believers (the elect) who are perplexed at the delay of Christ's return. They are being mocked by unbelievers. Peter assures them that God is not tardy, He is patient. He is bringing ALL the elect to Himself and when He's done, GAME OVER.

An Arminian has to explain how Christ can ever return since God is gonna sing just one more verse of Just as I am just in case there is one more. How can He know if it's time to drop the curtain.

Hint. Study a passage in context. It improves your theology.

You forgot to address this specificly and answer the questions... Dont think for a moment I will let you escape this lol.

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.

So in other words, you disagree with Peter scribing the word ANY... as in your opinion it is the Fathers will that some perish.

And you also disagree with peter scribing the word ALL, as in your opinion it is the Fathers will that not ALL come to repentance...

In your opinion peter misheard God, or misrepresented what God REALLY meant to say, and should have written, "its not the Fathers will that SOME of you perish but that SOME of you come to repentance"

is this a fair estimation of what you believe? If not please correct me very specificly as to exactly what i have wrong about your 'interpretation' of 2 peter 3:9

 

[drstevej]

John when you have read my posts carefully try again.

 

[Melethiel]

You are not only calvinist, but you have no idea where question 2 is leading so how do you judge it as anything?

Um...I just stated that I'm NOT Calvinist.

 

[John1and1]

John when you have read my posts carefully try again.

DrSteve

I was pretty sure yours would be a short conversation due to the nature of the points and questions addressed to you. I might suggest though next time try not to blame your opponant for the fact you cant address the points and questions made to you. It lacks class.


If and when you decide to come back however, this will remain for you to address

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.

So in other words, you disagree with Peter scribing the word ANY... as in your opinion it is the Fathers will that some perish.

And you also disagree with peter scribing the word ALL, as in your opinion it is the Fathers will that not ALL come to repentance...

In your opinion peter misheard God, or misrepresented what God REALLY meant to say, and should have written, "its not the Fathers will that SOME of you perish but that SOME of you come to repentance"

is this a fair estimation of what you believe? If not please correct me very specificly as to exactly what i have wrong about your 'interpretation' of 2 peter 3:9

 

[DaRev]

So was God taunting Cain, outright lying to Cain, or did Cain REALLY have the opportunity to choose to offer a pleasing sacrifice?

The bottom line, though, is that we cannot CHOOSE salvation because CHOICE is a work of ours, and we are not saved by any work of ours. We are incapable for making that choice due to the Fall. The gift of Salvation has already been given to all through Christ. He did the work, we reap the benefit.

Think of it this way...

Say there is a young boy who's 12th birthday is coming up. His mother and father decide to give him a bicycle for his birthday. They go and buy it, they pay for it, they put it together. On his birthday the present it to him.
Noe the question is, at what point does that bicycle belong to that boy? At what point does he own it? While some might say "when his parents gave it to him," the reality is that it was his the moment his parents bought and paid for it. It belonged to him. It was his bicycle. His parents may have even referred to it as "Johnny's bicycle" even before his birthday.
The boy didn't buy it, he didn't choose it, he did nothing to earn it. He didn't have to. It was already his. He just didn't know it until it was presented to him.

Our gift of faith ans salvation is the same way. God decided to save us. He did the work. He paid the price. In the person of Christ, He gave the gift of forgiveness and life and salvation to all humanity. We reap the benefit. It is already ours. It belongs to us.

Now, there are three types of people. There are those to whom the gift of life and salvation have been presented through the proclamation of the Gospel (Romans 10:13-17), and they acknowledge it and say "thank you" through their prayers and praise and thanksgivings. (Just like Johnny said "thank you" to mom and dad for his bike.) We call them 'believers'.
There are those who have been presented with the gift through the proclamation of the Gospel, but have actively rejected it. They don't want it. They push it away. We call them 'unbelievers' and are in danger of damnation.
Then there are those who have not yet been presented with the gift. They, too, are 'unbelievers' and are in danger of damnation because of the natural sinful nature that we are all born into. Again, as Romans 10:13-17 teaches, the proclamation of the Gospel is the means by which the gift of salvation is presented. This is why spreading the Gospel to the world is so important.

Now Johnny could tell his parents "I don't want that bicycle" in which case he derives no benefit from it. He also wouldn't derive any benefit from it if it wasn't presented to him because he wouldn't even know he has it.

We don't have to choose or work or accept our gift from God. It is already ours. It simply has to be presented to us in order for us to reap the benefit. And God moves through His people in the Church to see that the Gospel of Christ, the good news of salvation in Him, is presented to the world for which He died.

 

[dinkime]

well stated, rev!

 

[John1and1]

DaRev
From the bottom of my heart, though i partly agree and disagree with you, let me say that was a truly fine post. I certainly agree with almost everything including your reasoning, and yet i still see that we do have ultimately aa choice to make.


Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, CHOOSE YOU this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.


Genesis 4:6
And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.


Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE life, that both thou and thy seed may live:


Job 34:4
Let US CHOOSE to us judgment: let us know among ourselves what is good.


Proverbs 1:29
For that they hated knowledge, and did not CHOOSE the fear of the LORD

Proverbs 3:31
Envy thou not the oppressor, and CHOOSE none of his ways.


Isaiah 7:15
Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and CHOOSE the good


Isaiah 7:16
For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and CHOOSE the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.


Isaiah 56:
4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and CHOOSE the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.


Isaiah 65:12
Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did CHOOSE that wherein I delighted not.


It is OUR choice of whom we will serve and what we will conform to, therefore God is just in punishing those who refuse His salvation, and gracious in that it is offered to ALL

 

[DaRev]

Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, CHOOSEYOU this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Genesis 4:6
And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Job 34:4
Let US CHOOSE to us judgment: let us know among ourselves what is good.


Proverbs 3:31
Envy thou not the oppressor, and CHOOSEnone of his ways.

Isaiah 65:12
Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did CHOOSE that wherein I delighted not.

These verses speak nothing of "choosing" God. The fact remains that the only "choice" that we as naturally sinful human beings have is to reject God.

In the context of Scripture as a whole (since Scripture interprets Scripture) the other verses must be taken in light of the Gospel, which clearly teaches that it is God who has chosen us. We are already His. In our natural sinful state we cannot, would not, choose God.

St Paul says it best in Romans 8:5-8, "For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

 

[John1and1]

DaRev

Let me ask you this. Do you believe that God gave to every man a measure of faith? If so why would you say He did that?

Also, John tells us that Jesus IS that true light which lights the heart of every man that entereth the world. Romans 1 added to this also tells us that even nature itself teaches us that there is a God so that we are without excuse.

Hos is it then that the Holy Spirit convicts of sin and draws us to God?

 

[A New Dawn]

Because God ordained it.

John, what do you do with all the scriptures that do not agree with your point of view? On what basis do you cast them aside?

 

[John1and1]

New Dawn lol

There ARE NO scriptures that disagree with my view lol...

Now i DO note that some people choose to believe one set of passages and disregard the others. Do you disregard the passages which ALL CLAIM we have a choice in the matter?

No my view must conform to ALL scripture. I conform my doctrine to EVERY word of God not pick the half i want to believe.

If you doubt me throw a scripture my way by all means, and then tell me too if you belive the passages i posted above, aLL showing we have a choice.

 

[DaRev]

DaRev

Let me ask you this. Do you believe that God gave to every man a measure of faith? If so why would you say He did that?

Also, John tells us that Jesus IS that true light which lights the heart of every man that entereth the world. Romans 1 added to this also tells us that even nature itself teaches us that there is a God so that we are without excuse.

Hos is it then that the Holy Spirit convicts of sin and draws us to God?

I guess I don't understand the nature of your question. But let me ask you this - do you believe that we are saved by works or that we contribute in any way toward our salvation?

 

[John1and1]

I guess I don't understand the nature of your question. But let me ask you this - do you believe that we are saved by works or that we contribute in any way toward our salvation?

We are certainly saved by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is a gift of God. But... do you deny that we are to CHOOSE whom we will serve? To say we have no choice is to say God made the choice for us. If God made the choice for us, we are then no better than a a computer, doing only that which it is programed to be.

How is it we can choose this day whom we will serv if we have no choice to make?

How can we choose to do good and not evil, if we have no choice to make? And yet the passages i present to you tell us to just those things.

God told Cain IF he would only choose to do good he would be accepted... this was no lie my friend




Now back to my questions that you didnt understand


Scripture tells us every man is given a measure of faith. Do you believe that God gave to every man a measure of faith? If so why would you say He did gave every man that measure of faith? What is it's purrpose?

Also, John tells us that Jesus IS that true light which lights the heart of every man that entereth the world. Romans 1 added to this also tells us that even nature itself teaches us that there is a God so that we are without excuse. So what purpose does this light instilled in every man serve?

 

[DaRev]

We are certainly saved by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is a gift of God. But... do you deny that we are to CHOOSE whom we will serve? To say we have no choice is to say God made the choice for us. If God made the choice for us, we are then no better than a a computer, doing only that which it is programed to be.

How is it we can choose this day whom we will serv if we have no choice to make?

How can we choose to do good and not evil, if we have no choice to make? And yet the passages i present to you tell us to just those things.

God told Cain IF he would only choose to do good he would be accepted... this was no lie my friend




Now back to my questions that you didnt understand


Scripture tells us every man is given a measure of faith. Do you believe that God gave to every man a measure of faith? If so why would you say He did gave every man that measure of faith? What is it's purrpose?

Also, John tells us that Jesus IS that true light which lights the heart of every man that entereth the world. Romans 1 added to this also tells us that even nature itself teaches us that there is a God so that we are without excuse. So what purpose does this light instilled in every man serve?

Scripture tells us in many places that we cannot do good on our own. The good that we do is moved in us by God through the Holy Spirit. The only "choice" we have is to do evil. Our will is bound by the sinful nature. We cannot "choose" God. He has chosen us. The good that we do is the result of God's choosing us first (the fruits of faith). We love because God first loved us.

Our faith is a free gift of God. We do not choose it, we do not earn it, we do not ask for it because we in our sinful nature cannot. The gift is given to all. We either acknowledge it through the hearing of the Gospel and our response (the fruit of faith), which is totally passive on our part, or we reject it which is totally active on our part.

 

[John1and1]

Scripture tells us in many places that we cannot do good on our own. The good that we do is moved in us by God through the Holy Spirit. The only "choice" we have is to do evil. Our will is bound by the sinful nature. We cannot "choose" God. He has chosen us. The good that we do is the result of God's choosing us first (the fruits of faith). We love because God first loved us.

Our faith is a free gift of God. We do not choose it, we do not earn it, we do not ask for it because we in our sinful nature cannot. The gift is given to all. We either acknowledge it through the hearing of the Gospel and our response (the fruit of faith), which is totally passive on our part, or we reject it which is totally active on our part.

The scriptures tell us many things my friend. Do they not also tell us to choose this day whom we will serve? If we are told to choose, how can we say we do not have the power to choose?

 

[A New Dawn]

New Dawn lol

There ARE NO scriptures that disagree with my view lol...

Now i DO note that some people choose to believe one set of passages and disregard the others. Do you disregard the passages which ALL CLAIM we have a choice in the matter?

Since scripture interprets scripture (as has already been pointed out), all scriptures must be taken in light of all other scriptures. Yes, some scriptures speak about a choice. But many others speak about the fact that there is no choice, so one must look at the context of the scripture to understand what is being talked about, to whom it was said, etc. (as was already pointed out, also). You just can't take a scripture out of it's context and apply it to anything you want to apply it to. When you ignore these points, that is how we get these bizarro cultic theologies.

Now, drstevej spoke to the context of the 2 Peter 3 scripture that you posted. Can you speak to the scripture given the context of it?

No my view must conform to ALL scripture. I conform my doctrine to EVERY word of God not pick the half i want to believe.

If you doubt me throw a scripture my way by all means, and then tell me too if you belive the passages i posted above, aLL showing we have a choice.

 

[DaRev]

The scriptures tell us many things my friend. Do they not also tell us to choose this day whom we will serve? If we are told to choose, how can we say we do not have the power to choose?

Well, since the Scriptures teach us that we cannot do anything good apart from God, then the only "choice"we have is to choose against Him. The verse you keep quoteing says nothing about "choosing God."

Let's look at it...

Joshua 24:15 "And if it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Is this verse asking or instructing anyone to "choose to serve the LORD"? The answer is an obvious No. What is the very first line of the verse? "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD". This verse nor the context it is within says anything about "choosing" to serve the LORD. The assumption here, and is substantiated by the context of Scripture as a whole, is that that choice was already made...by God on our behalf. The verse is saying 'if you don't want to serve the LORD, then choose who you will serve.' What are the choices to choose from? False gods, not the true God.

Choosing false gods is something that we in our sinful human nature can certainly do... and we do.

Choosing to believe in and follow the one true God is something we cannot do because of our sinful nature.

Psalm 14:3 There is no one who does good, not even one.

Psalm 53:3 There is no one who does good, not even one.

Romans 3:10-12, "There is none righteous, not even one; There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God; All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, There is not even one."

John 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing."

Romans 7:15-20, "For that which I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. But if I do the very thing I do not wish to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that it is good. So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which indwells me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the wishing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I wish, I do not do; but I practice the very evil that I do not wish. But if I am doing the very thing I do not wish, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me."

 

[nobdysfool]

The scriptures tell us many things my friend. Do they not also tell us to choose this day whom we will serve? If we are told to choose, how can we say we do not have the power to choose?

Context. This was addressed to God's Chosen people, not the world in general.

The whole concept of God's commands implying innate ability to obey is the heresy of Pelagius. It arose from his objection to hearing Augustine pray, "God, command what Thou wilt, and grant what Thou commandest."

Your hatred for Calvinism is well known. It is not according to knowledge.