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Once saved always saved?

drstevej

"The crowd always chooses Barabbas."
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Reasons to be an Arminian

1. If getting saved once was great, Arminians get to get saved over and over and over...

2. Most of the world believes in free will so even atheists have your back on this point.

3. You get to make the eternal difference and God can't stop ya!

4. When (if) you get to Heaven you lose your free will and finally don't have to sweat hanging on to Jesus by your fingernails.

5. Calvinist caricatures are fun to paint.

7. Daisies have more petals than tulips. More fun to play the He loves me, He loves me not game. Those darn 5 petal tulips always end up with He loves me... boring!



.
 
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ReformedChapin

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Reasons to be an Arminian

1. If getting saved once was great, Arminians get to get saved over and over and over...

2. Most of the world believes in free will so even atheists have your back on this point.

3. You get to make the eternal difference and God can't stop ya!

4. When (if) you get to Heaven you lose your free will and finally don't have to sweat hanging on to Jesus by your fingernails.

5. Calvinist caricatures are fun to paint.

7. Daisies have more petals than tulips. More fun to play the He loves me, He loves me not game. Those darn 5 petal tulips always end up with He loves me... boring!



.
Answering with sarcasm will only push them farther away. Let them ask what they want, I will point out their logical flaws.
 
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John1and1

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What you are saying is that sinners deserve that God saves them. And you are dead wrong on that one.



Show me where i said anything akin to that? you are entirely incorrect, and i dont know why this question intimidates you to the posint you cant give me a simple yes or no answer.

Is God evil in that He taunts those who have no control over what they are born into as in the case of someone with downs syndrome? Yes or no, its really very simple
 
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John1and1

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Just some topical humor.


Dr Steve if you are Calvinist by all means give me your serious topical answers to the 4 questions i asked newguy


1) Is God evil in that He is unjust?

2) Is God evil in that He taunts men over things they have no control over? For instance would God taunt a person with downs syndrome and mock them?

3) Do you believe every passage in the bible?

4) What do you make of this passage, do you believe this one? If so please explain it.

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
 
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DaRev

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What you are saying is that sinners deserve that God saves them. And you are dead wrong on that one.

This is true. Sinners do not deserve to be saved. But we are ALL sinners. We ALL deserve death and hell. We are ALL born in a state of rebellion against God (Psalm 51:5). All have fallen short of the glory of God. There is no one who does good, no not one.

But God the Son came so that ALL may have life. His atoning sacrifice was for ALL sin, not just the sin of the elect. The gift of faith and life and salvation is given to ALL. Those who are lost are those who have wilfully rejected that free gift. God gives it to everyone. But not everyone acknowledges it. Many will reject it to their own damnation.
 
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drstevej

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Dr Steve if you are Calvinist by all means give me your serious topical answers to the 4 questions i asked newguy


1) Is God evil in that He is unjust? GOD IS NEITHER EVIL OR UNJUST. NOR DOES HE TAKE A POLL TO DETERMINE WHAT IS FAIR.

2) Is God evil in that He taunts men over things they have no control over? For instance would God taunt a person with downs syndrome and mock them? GOD HONORED ELIJAH'S TAUNTING OF THE PROPHETS OF BAAL. FIRE FELL. AS TO DOWN'S SYNDROME, EX 4:11 GOD TAKES CREDIT FOR THOSE BORN WITHOUS SPEECH, SIGHT AND HEARING.

3) Do you believe every passage in the bible? ORIGINAL TEXT AND UNDERSTOOD IN CONTEXT, YES? DO I UNDERSTAND EVERY PASSAGE? NO.

4) What do you make of this passage, do you believe this one? If so please explain it.

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

FIRST YOU HAVE THE WRONG CHAPTER. IT IS CHAPTER 3. SECOND, CONTEXT MAKES IT PLAIN HE IS SPEAKING OF THE ELECT. AND IT IS A GREAT CALVINIST VERSE. FROM AN ARMINIAN VIEW, JESUS CAN'T RETURN SINCE JUST ONE MORE MIGHT REPENT THE NEXT DAY HAD HE WAITED.

HOW DID I DO?
 
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ReformedChapin

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Show me where i said anything akin to that? you are entirely incorrect, and i dont know why this question intimidates you to the posint you cant give me a simple yes or no answer.

Is God evil in that He taunts those who have no control over what they are born into as in the case of someone with downs syndrome? Yes or no, its really very simple
Nope, I was hoping that you weren't setting up a straw man argument but now I know that was your intent.

Basically this is your argument

Premise 1 : God is evil if he taunts
Premise 2: God cannot be evil
Premise 3: Predestination is like a taunt

Therefore predestination is wrong since God cannot be evil. Well while premise 1 and 2 are true biblically premise 3 isn't.
 
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ReformedChapin

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and how is this a straw man when you dont even know where it is leading? The question intimidates you because i believe you know its about to defeat your calvinist doctrine ;)

simple yes or no, if it is a straw man it is easily burnt, i take great joy in burning straw men myself

so before we forget your 3 answers please give us tour 4th
What are you talking about? It's leading to say that God is evil.

...and I don't even know what the bold portion means.
 
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ReformedChapin

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So you DO believe God is an evil taunter, but you dont want to say it outloud?

I left the question open as to YOUR impression of God and you say it leads you to say God is evil and a taunter?
This is really getting dumb... please if you are going to discuss scripture please attempt to use valid arguments.
 
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John1and1

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NewGuy

I agree it isnt smart to run from a question openly in a debate. Makes it look as though you have no answer. Lets look at what we have so far

These are your answers to the quesitons

1) Is God evil in that He is unjust?
Answer: 1) Nope

2) Is God evil in that He taunts men over things they have no control over? For instance would God taunt a person with downs syndrome and mock them?

Answer: none given excelt to say it would lead you to say God is evil


3) Do you believe every passage in the bible?

Answer: I believe in the inerrancy of scripture, I don't get why you would even bother asking this question.


4) What do you make of this passage, do you believe this one? If so please explain it.

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Answer: This means that God wants everyone to be saved, but that doesn't mean he does it. BTW even by the arminian system if God wanted to save everyone he could do it as well but doesn't do it...so that argument doesn't work either way.



So much for your answers, now lets move to the points

You say you believe 2 Peter, and yet 2 Peter tells us that it is NOT the fathers will that ANY man perish but that ALL would come to repentence.

If you believe the word NOT meants NOT, and ANY means ANY, and ALL means ALL, then calvinist doctrine is in grosserror because they teach it is NOT the Fathers will that all men be saved but that MOST in fact perish.


let me address a couple other issues

1) GOD is LOVE ... If God therefore chose some intentionally to go to Hell, He is no longer a just and loving God, by a maniacle tyrant. How can He say He loves THE WORLD and decide to keep salvation from most of them... This makes Him a liar as well and my God is no liar

2) Pharoahs heart was hardened... YES it was but only because pharoah himself denied the God of the Hebrew and refused to honor Him as God, so this was by Pharoahs choice and God gave him up to go his own way

3) Romans 1 tells us EVERY MAN is without excuse because even nature itself teaches them there is a God, and when they KNEW this they chose to not glorify Him as God, so God gave them up to go their own way

4) ALL that come to Christ are those given to Him by the Father.,,. for GOD SO LOVED the world that He gave His son so that WHOSOEVER believed could have everlasting life

5) ALL that come are recieved and NOT ONE is cast out

6) Jesus, John 1 tells us, is the LIGHT which lit the heart of EVERY MAN that came into the world... EVERY man

7) ALL these scriptures and many more work together to show us that God is Good, God is Just, God is Love, and that Salvation is for whosover will... not just the ones 'called' for its the Fathers will that ALL men come to repentance


Also if God is an evil taunter as you alledge then i can understand his conversation with Cain. I on the other hand do not believe God is evil OR a taunter, so i muct conclude that God's conversation with Cain was honest.

1) God had a choice. He could create a race of robots, put love in their hearts for Him, offer them no other choice on whom to hold to and serve. On the other hand He could desire we CHOOSE to love Him of our own accord, and even allow us alternate masters to serve. The latter was certainly taking a chance, and most people ARE selfish and wish to serve themselves, not knowing they are choosing in effect to serve satan.

God is not false or pretentious. He is not one who forces our affections, but one who loves us in the desire we love Him back. He even loves and bears long with the wicked, calling and entreating them as He did with Cain.

On a smaller scale we as people sometimes have to let those we love go their own way... we can bear with them and entreat them and warn them of where their rebellion will take them... We can see where all this will lead them and yet to be 'righteous' we must let them eventually make their own decisions despite the fact we know the trouble they are buying for themselves.

In this God is not unrighteous, but totally righteous and loving and careing, even entreating us as we go our own way... Even there for us IF we see the err of our way and repent.

2) God had a choice for His design...

a) predestine us so that we couldnt choose salvation even if we wanted to. Never even putting His light of truth into us, never dealing with us in mind and heart. Never calling those many at all. Having foreknowledge according to HIS predetermined predestination. Creating an entire world of people for hundreds of generations, only to say, "These i will choose for heaven, these i will never give the chance"
Indeed this one IS a mean spirited and bigoted God, and we could NEVER just love Him, but only know fear, because He Himself would not love His creation, nor would Jesus have died for all the sins of the world... it could NEVER be 'whosoever will'.


b) Or God in his foreknowledge could predestine us to be what He calls us to be. This God deals with every man, salvation is for whoever will. He entreated Cain and even the very worst of us.
LOOK at the fact that God PLEADED with Cain and salvation was OFFERED to Cain and God's desire was that he CHOOSE salvation and good and right... Cain HAD the choice...Genesis 4: 6And the Lord said to Cain, Why are you angry? And why do you look sad and depressed and dejected?

7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin crouches at your door; its desire is for you, but you must master it.



He pleads all the day long with our spirits to repent because He doesnt desire our destruciton, and yet has limited Himself not to force our affections. This God, though just, IS love and humbles Himself for our good... bears long with us, loving the whole world.


These are 2 entirely differant Gods, the calvinist and the noncalvinist, my friend
 
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ReformedChapin

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1) Is God evil in that He is unjust?
Answer: 1) Nope

2) Is God evil in that He taunts men over things they have no control over? For instance would God taunt a person with downs syndrome and mock them?

Answer: none given excelt to say it would lead you to say God is evil


3) Do you believe every passage in the bible?

Answer: I believe in the inerrancy of scripture, I don't get why you would even bother asking this question.


4) What do you make of this passage, do you believe this one? If so please explain it.

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Answer: This means that God wants everyone to be saved, but that doesn't mean he does it. BTW even by the arminian system if God wanted to save everyone he could do it as well but doesn't do it...so that argument doesn't work either way.
These questions were a complete waste of time and the reason why I refused to answer question 2 it's because it's a loaded question.



You say you believe 2 Peter, and yet 2 Peter tells us that it is NOT the fathers will that ANY man perish but that ALL would come to repentence.

If you believe the word NOT meants NOT, and ANY means ANY, and ALL means ALL, then calvinist doctrine is in grosserror because they teach it is NOT the Fathers will that all men be saved but that MOST in fact perish.
What that verse says is what God WANTS to happen. Again, because someone or THE ONE (God) want's something that doesn't imply that HE will do it.



1) GOD is LOVE ... If God therefore chose some intentionally to go to Hell, He is no longer a just and loving God, by a maniacle tyrant. How can He say He loves THE WORLD and decide to keep salvation from most of them... This makes Him a liar as well and my God is no liar
Again, God is in control of everything. Then how, is he not responsible in the armian system for doing more? Is it justifiable saying..well someone randomly listened to me while randomly others didn't so it's justifable to send them to hell? God by your own logic would still be responsible since he could do more.

2) Pharoahs heart was hardened... YES it was but only because pharoah himself denied the God of the Hebrew and refused to honor Him as God, so this was by Pharoahs choice and God gave him up to go his own way
This is were you seem to misunderstand calvinism. God's will and mans desire go hand in hand so Pharoah was hardended by his own choice and God was responsible of it.

3) Romans 1 tells us EVERY MAN is without excuse because even nature itself teaches them there is a God, and when they KNEW this they chose to not glorify Him as God, so God gave them up to go their own way
Yes, but they will not be able to see it. And certainly while nature defines a god that doesn't imply that it points to a triune God. Are Muslims going to heaven as well?

4) ALL that come to Christ are those given to Him by the Father.,,. for GOD SO LOVED the world that He gave His son so that WHOSOEVER believed could have everlasting life
Key word is believe...who will genuinely believe? God's elect. I explained this already.

5) ALL that come are recieved and NOT ONE is cast out
All who come genuinely will be God's elect.

6) Jesus, John 1 tells us, is the LIGHT which lit the heart of EVERY MAN that came into the world... EVERY man
How exactly does that imply salvation?

7) ALL these scriptures and many more work together to show us that God is Good, God is Just, God is Love, and that Salvation is for whosover will... not just the ones 'called' for its the Fathers will that ALL men come to repentance
Yep, but unless you are God's elect you cannot will to come to God because you are totally depraved.

Also if God is an evil taunter as you alledge then i can understand his conversation with Cain. I on the other hand do not believe God is evil OR a taunter, so i muct conclude that God's conversation with Cain was honest.
Actually you alladed him to be a taunter. That's why you set up question number 2 with straw man.
1) God had a choice. He could create a race of robots, put love in their hearts for Him, offer them no other choice on whom to hold to and serve. On the other hand He could desire we CHOOSE to love Him of our own accord, and even allow us alternate masters to serve. The latter was certainly taking a chance, and most people ARE selfish and wish to serve themselves, not knowing they are choosing in effect to serve satan.
So love is an arbitrary feeling? Wow awesome love, certainly violates

1Co13:4Love is patient, love is kind, it is not envious. Love does not brag, it is not puffed up.



God is not false or pretentious. He is not one who forces our affections, but one who loves us in the desire we love Him back. He even loves and bears long with the wicked, calling and entreating them as He did with Cain
. Again, you don't understand the calvinistic system so I wont even dignify this with a response since it's another strawman.

On a smaller scale we as people sometimes have to let those we love go their own way... we can bear with them and entreat them and warn them of where their rebellion will take them... We can see where all this will lead them and yet to be 'righteous' we must let them eventually make their own decisions despite the fact we know the trouble they are buying for themselves.
No one said not to treat them warmly another strawman.

In this God is not unrighteous, but totally righteous and loving and careing, even entreating us as we go our own way... Even there for us IF we see the err of our way and repent.
Actually your god is an uncontrolling god that logically cannot know how events will occur.
2) God had a choice for His design...
He sure did, I think he made the best choice.

a) predestine us so that we couldnt choose salvation even if we wanted to. Never even putting His light of truth into us, never dealing with us in mind and heart. Never calling those many at all. Having foreknowledge according to HIS predetermined predestination. Creating an entire world of people for hundreds of generations, only to say, "These i will choose for heaven, these i will never give the chance"
Indeed this one IS a mean spirited and bigoted God, and we could NEVER just love Him, but only know fear, because He Himself would not love His creation, nor would Jesus have died for all the sins of the world... it could NEVER be 'whosoever will'.
You just keep showing me that you don't understand calvinism.


b) Or God in his foreknowledge could predestine us to be what He calls us to be. This God deals with every man, salvation is for whoever will. He entreated Cain and even the very worst of us.
LOOK at the fact that God PLEADED with Cain and salvation was OFFERED to Cain and God's desire was that he CHOOSE salvation and good and right... Cain HAD the choice...Genesis 4: 6And the Lord said to Cain, Why are you angry? And why do you look sad and depressed and dejected?
How exctly did God know what Cain was going to do if Cain could make an arbitrary choice?

7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin crouches at your door; its desire is for you, but you must master it.
Useless question.



He pleads all the day long with our spirits to repent because He doesnt desire our destruciton, and yet has limited Himself not to force our affections. This God, though just, IS love and humbles Himself for our good... bears long with us, loving the whole world.
Scriptural evidence for this...


These are 2 entirely differant Gods, the calvinist and the noncalvinist, my friend
Sure are, your god doesn't exist since he violates logic.
 
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John1and1

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These questions were a complete waste of time and the reason why I refused to answer question 2 it's because it's a loaded question.

Of course you would consider it a loaded question since it goes against your doctrine. Either God wanted Cain to decide for himself to do good, or He was taunting Cain at best, outright lying to him at worse. But God was neither taunting not lying. He gave Cain the chance to decide for himself whom he would serve. Do you believe this, and if not why? If you do belive this you are not calvinist.




What that verse says is what God WANTS to happen. Again, because someone or THE ONE (God) want's something that doesn't imply that HE will do it.

So now according to calvinistic thought, God will not choose everyone to be saved, but only a select few. Yet in 2 peter we are told that His desire is that all men be saved. Here you imply this is what He wants and yet He will not choose to bring it to pass. Excuse me but this God seems very schiziphrenic. If it is His will that no one perishes, why does calvinist doctrine sayHe chooses most to perish anyway? Is God confused? MANIC DEPRESSANT? Schizophrenic? or is calvinist doctrine simply wrong?




Again, God is in control of everything. Then how, is he not responsible in the armian system for doing more? Is it justifiable saying..well someone randomly listened to me while randomly others didn't so it's justifable to send them to hell.

I cant answer for the armenian, i am neither calvinist nor armenian

This is were you seem to misunderstand calvinism. God's will and mans desire God hand in Hand so Pharoah was hardended by his own choice and God was responsible of it.

Calvinism denies free will, so you would be an exception to calvinism if you believe this


Yep, but unless you are God's elect you cannot will to come to God because you are totally depraved.

So then do you say "Whosoever will" cannot really come? If it is the Fathers will that all men be saved wouldnt He call them all?

Actually you alladed him to be a taunter. That's why you set up question number 2 with straw man.
So love is an arbitrary feeling? Wow awesome love certainly violates

1Co13:4Love is patient, love is kind, it is not envious. Love does not brag, it is not puffed up.



. Again, you don't understand the calvinistic system so I wont even dignify this with a response.


It is quite possible i have debated calvinism since you were in diapers, so by what criteria do you suggest i dont not understand calvinism? By the fact that you yourself are at odds with it and yet uphold it?



Actually you god is an uncontrolling god that logically cannot know how events will occur.
He sure did, I think he made the best choice.

You just keep showing me that you don't understand calvinism.

You yourself are at odds with calvinism and claim to know what it is and yet you condescend to judge my God?

My God does not control mens decisions in this you are true, yet He foreknew every one ever made, and His plan still comes to pass... hows that for might compared to a god that says he wants all men saved yet refuses to call most of them?


How exctly did God know what Cain was going to do if Cain could make an arbitray choice?

You are going to pretend to debate an issue when you dont even understand foreknoeledge? You do not comprehend that God is not only omnipresent but omniscient as well? Isnt it possible for God to be all knowing without making men into robots who have no choice as to whom they will serve?


New guy

If it is Gods will that all men are saved, why did He not call them all and send most to hell anyway?
 
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John1and1

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DrSteve

Yes i have an answer. You have potential but did poorly.

Lets look at your questions and answers

1) Is God evil in that He is unjust? GOD IS NEITHER EVIL OR UNJUST. NOR DOES HE TAKE A POLL TO DETERMINE WHAT IS FAIR.

No God takes no poll, yet you claim He is just. Is it just for a God to say His will is that all men repent and no man perish and then not ALLOW whosoever will to come?



2) Is God evil in that He taunts men over things they have no control over? For instance would God taunt a person with downs syndrome and mock them? GOD HONORED ELIJAH'S TAUNTING OF THE PROPHETS OF BAAL. FIRE FELL. AS TO DOWN'S SYNDROME, EX 4:11 GOD TAKES CREDIT FOR THOSE BORN WITHOUS SPEECH, SIGHT AND HEARING.

So i take it you do not believe that God would taunt a man with downs syndrome. Why would He taunt a sinner who had no choice nor chance to be saved? Is this your idea of justice and righteousness?




3) Do you believe every passage in the bible? ORIGINAL TEXT AND UNDERSTOOD IN CONTEXT, YES? DO I UNDERSTAND EVERY PASSAGE? NO.




4) What do you make of this passage, do you believe this one? If so please explain it.

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

FIRST YOU HAVE THE WRONG CHAPTER. IT IS CHAPTER 3. SECOND, CONTEXT MAKES IT PLAIN HE IS SPEAKING OF THE ELECT. AND IT IS A GREAT CALVINIST VERSE. FROM AN ARMINIAN VIEW, JESUS CAN'T RETURN SINCE JUST ONE MORE MIGHT REPENT THE NEXT DAY HAD HE WAITED.


Yes it is 2 Peter 3 thank you. Now you seem to be acerting that God does not mean many of the words He speaks here. For instance, where you take exception to what is literally stated in 2 Peter 3:9

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.

So in other words, you disagree with Peter scribing the word ANY... as in your opinion it is the Fathers will that some perish.

And you also disagree with peter scribing the word ALL, as in your opinion it is the Fathers will that not ALL come to repentance...

In your opinion peter misheard God, or misrepresented what God REALLY meant to say, and should have written, "its not the Fathers will that SOME of you perish but that SOME of you come to repentance"

is this a fair estimation of what you believe? If not please correct me very specificly as to exactly what i have wrong about your 'interpretation' of 2 peter 3:9
 
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