Once saved always saved?

[drstevej]

Because the "whosoever believeth" are the elect.

I love it when you talk Calvinistic.

 

[ReformedChapin]

The problem with this then would be the reason for the crucifixion of Christ. If God has already determined who will be saved and who will be damned, then there was absolutely no point in the suffering and death of Jesus.

The fact is that our salvation is completely and totally God's doing. Our damnation is completely and totally our own doing. Grace is indeed resistible. If it were not, then Adam and Eve would not have been able to sin in the Garden.

Isn't it a little pressumptious to assume that election dissolves sin? Just because we are choosen for God that doesn't imply we wont fail him?

Also, how is the cross less meaninful if it's for a select few which God chose rather than for an arbitrary system which we all have "free will"?

 

[ReformedChapin]

I love it when you talk Calvinistic.

It's HAWT!

 

[Jim47]

So, I am confused. Are you saying that that scripture implies that someone's name can be blotted out of the book of life? I think it implies just the opposite. I see it as an assurance of salvation, that people will not have their names removed from the book.

So why would Paul write this?

1Ti 1:18 Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, 19 holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.

Paul clearly believes Timothy has faith, yet warns him not to fall away.

And he wrote this to the Corinthians

1Co 10:11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. 12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall! 13 No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

Also, I would like to what scripture you use to support your belief of couble predestination.

 

[sanctifiedband]

This is such a fundamental part of our faith, but no-one seems to know for sure. I certainly don't. I think yes, but it'd be good for us to discuss it.

Equally, we all sin every day so, as many believe, do we need to repent in order to stay saved? If we don't repent, do we lose salvation? If so, what did Jesus accomplish on the Cross if not our salvation?

Maybe collectively we'll come up with some never before discovered jewel of information that tells us definitively one way or the other

I believe that one does not lose salvation when one sins. Sinning is something that happens everyday.. Even my youth pastor sins.. But he is still a Godly man and follows Jesus in everything he does. However, I do believe that if you have done something wrong, and that wrong is bearing heavily on your heart, then you should go to God and ask for His forgiveness. However, I do not believe that it is that easy to lose your salvation. One must purposefully walk away from God and declare his independence from God. To do this, I think it takes a bit more than just sinning.

God loves us no matter how many times we sin or even if we walk away from Him. So I believe that once you become saved, that it is almost impossible for you to just lose that salvation through everyday sinning

 

[A New Dawn]

So why would Paul write this?

1Ti 1:18 Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, 19 holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.

Paul clearly believes Timothy has faith, yet warns him not to fall away.

And he wrote this to the Corinthians

1Co 10:11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. 12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall! 13 No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

I believe that there is a difference between losing your faith and falling away. I believe that God gave us our faith and preserves us so that we can't lose it, but we all sin and fall away to certain extents. Sometimes we fall away to the point where God needs to discipline us. Such instances are recorded in the Bible.

[BIBLE]1 Corinthians 5:1-8[/BIBLE]

This makes it clear that God will preserve us and not let us fall away, to the point of ending our life so we can't fall away to the point that we cannot return.

Also, I would like to what scripture you use to support your belief of couble predestination.

I don't believe in double predestination.

 

[DaRev]

Isn't it a little pressumptious to assume that election dissolves sin? Just because we are choosen for God that doesn't imply we wont fail him?

Precisely why OSAS is bogus.

Also, how is the cross less meaninful if it's for a select few which God chose rather than for an arbitrary system which we all have "free will"?

But we don't have "free will." Our will is bound to the sinful nature. Free will would suggest that we are free to choose to not sin which is contrary to Scripture on so many levels.

In John 3:16 it says "For God so loved the world..." In Greek the word is 'kosmos" which encompasses all people, not a select few. Jesus tells the apostles in Matthew 28 to make disciples of "all nations". In Greek it's "panta ethnos" which encompasses all people, not just a select few. In Romans 10 Paul quotes the prophet Joel when he says "Everyone who calls on the Name of the Lord will be saved." He doesn't say "only the elect who call on the Name of the Lord...."

Righteousness comes from God alone. Man cannot make himself righteous. Yet in Ezekiel 33:12 it says, "whereas a righteous man will not be able to live by his righteousness on the day when he commits sin." If a righteous man, who can only be made righteous by God, sins - thus turning away from his God given righteousness - he is lost.

Christ's death on the cross was for all people (the "kosmos" "panta ethnos"), not a select few. While there are many who will acknowledge this and be saved, there are many more who will reject this free gift of God's grace and be lost. Our salvation is wholly God's doing. Our damnation is wholly our doing. God does not send anyone to hell. We do that all by ourselves.

 

[drstevej]

The Parable of the Amyraldian*

A wealthy man buys ten tickets to Hawaii and has his Son pay cash for them. He sends a letter to ten people with a ticket purchased for them and invites them to join him in Hawaii.

He also sends a Special Courier to deliver three of the tickets to a select group of the ten and has the Courier earnestly persuade them to go {His persuasion is irresistible!} The Courier then escorts them onto the plane insuring they get to Hawaii.

The other seven get the letter and the ticket that has been purchased for them, but because they hate the wealthy man [he makes them feel guilty] they refuse to use the ticket. They each think. If I ever go to Hawaii, I'm going MY way. No one is paying my way, especially not That Guy!

The wealthy man, his son and the courier rejoice with the three in Hawaii. The other seven never make it and their tickets, while paid in full, are never used. While the three are in the beauty of Hawaii with the wealthy man a plague strikes the home towns of the seven and they perish.

NOTE: This is an artificially constructed parable to show how the price can be paid in full for those who refuse to receive the gift. The Father's election and the Spirit's persuasion are limited to the elect, yet a ticket purchased by the Son is legitimately extended to all.

Unlimited Atonement yet Limited Attainment

 

[Angel4Truth]

I believe that he that overcomes is he that has received eternal life , they have overcome death by being brought to life in the Spirit.

I also believe that the lambs book and the book of life are 2 different books. One book is all who have been saved (lambs book) and the book of life is everyone who has ever been born (physically) and those who go to the second death at the judgment have their names blotted out of that book.

 

[Albion]

The Parable of the Amyraldian

A wealthy man buys ten tickets to Hawaii and has his Son pay cash for them. He sends a letter to ten people with a ticket purchased for them and invites them to join him in Hawaii.

The analogy or artificial parable demonstrates free will, not any version of election.

 

[ReformedChapin]

Precisely why OSAS is bogus.



But we don't have "free will." Our will is bound to the sinful nature. Free will would suggest that we are free to choose to not sin which is contrary to Scripture on so many levels.

In John 3:16 it says "For God so loved the world..." In Greek the word is 'kosmos" which encompasses all people, not a select few. Jesus tells the apostles in Matthew 28 to make disciples of "all nations". In Greek it's "panta ethnos" which encompasses all people, not just a select few. In Romans 10 Paul quotes the prophet Joel when he says "Everyone who calls on the Name of the Lord will be saved." He doesn't say "only the elect who call on the Name of the Lord...."

Righteousness comes from God alone. Man cannot make himself righteous. Yet in Ezekiel 33:12 it says, "whereas a righteous man will not be able to live by his righteousness on the day when he commits sin." If a righteous man, who can only be made righteous by God, sins - thus turning away from his God given righteousness - he is lost.

Christ's death on the cross was for all people (the "kosmos" "panta ethnos"), not a select few. While there are many who will acknowledge this and be saved, there are many more who will reject this free gift of God's grace and be lost. Our salvation is wholly God's doing. Our damnation is wholly our doing. God does not send anyone to hell. We do that all by ourselves.

Let me highlight the important parts of the scripture you missed...

kosmos <2889>
kosmov kosmos
Pronunciation: kos'-mos
Origin: probably from the base of 2865
Reference: TDNT - 3:868,459
PrtSpch: noun masculine
In Greek: kosmou 71, kosmon 46, kosmw 36, kosmov 31
In NET: world 176, world's 5, worldly 2, age 1
In AV: world 186, adorning 1
Count: 187
Definition: 1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order,
government
2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars,
'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. \\#1Pe 3:3\\
3) the world, the universe
4) the circle of the earth, the earth
5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God,
and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
7a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages,
pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting,
stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause
of Christ
8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
8a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (\\#Ro 11:12\\ etc)
8b) of believers only, \\#John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47\\
\\#1Co 4:9; 2Co 5:19\\

You right, God does love the world, but that doesn't imply that he loves every individual the same. Also you are missing the second part of that verse..

NET ©

For this is the way 1 God loved the world: He gave his one and only 2 Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish 3 but have eternal life. 4

You are not going to believe unless you a part of God's elect. The same problem carries on with Matthew 28, he does want to make deciples of all nations that doesn't imply everyone will believe. Also conciding with your argument if God really did love everyone he would orgenize a system in which he would show himself and everyone would clearly see he is the one. If God wanted everyone to get saved he would do so. And you are partially right we send ourselves to hell because we are responsible for our actions...because we all deserve HELL. Except God saves a select few through Grace.

Romans8:28 And we know that all things work together 32 for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose, 8:29 because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that his Son 33 would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 34 8:30 And those he predestined, he also called; and those he called, he also justified; and those he justified, he also glorified

...because non are rightous not one and we all deserve internal damnation...

The Condemnation of the World

3:9 What then? Are we better off? Certainly not, for we have already charged that Jews and Greeks alike are all under sin, 3:10 just as it is written:

&#8220;There is no one righteous, not even one,

3:11 there is no one who understands,

there is no one who seeks God.

3:12 All have turned away,

together they have become worthless;

there is no one who shows kindness, not even one.&#8221; 15

3:13 &#8220;Their throats are open graves, 16

they deceive with their tongues,

the poison of asps is under their lips.&#8221; 17

3:14 &#8220;Their mouths are 18 full of cursing and bitterness.&#8221; 19

3:15 &#8220;Their feet are swift to shed blood,

3:16 ruin and misery are in their paths,

3:17 and the way of peace they have not known.&#8221; 20

3:18 &#8220;There is no fear of God before their eyes.&#8221; 21

3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under 22 the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 3:20 For no one is declared righteous before him 23 by the works of the law, 24 for through the law comes 25 the knowledge of sin.

But God has mercy on who he wants to have mercy...

Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! 9:15 For he says to Moses: &#8220;I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.

 

[Hishandmaiden]

I will be frank.
I am not sure about the answer to this question.

I used to be sure that it is not once saved, always saved, based on something Jesus said about how some who call Him Lord, Lord, will not be allowed into the Kingdom of heaven.

Then, I met a friend, who showed me the grace message, and I change my mind to think that once a christian is truly saved, that is, he or she is born again, so long as he or she holds onto Jesus, he or she will not be turned away even if he or she is a sinner.

This is based on how Paul scolded the christians in 1st corinthians for having a sexual immorality that is worst than the pagans in their midst and he tells them to expel the immoral brother from their midst and then, in 2nd corinthians, Paul relented and asked the christians to receive back the brother they had put out of fellowship with, in love.

Then, I see something happened in the book of Acts where two believers were slained for lying.

Then, I am confused. Today, I am still trying to determine what God really said about this issue. I am still exploring.

 

[DaRev]

Let me highlight the important parts of the scripture you missed...

kosmos <2889>
kosmov kosmos
Pronunciation: kos'-mos
Origin: probably from the base of 2865
Reference: TDNT - 3:868,459
PrtSpch: noun masculine
In Greek: kosmou 71, kosmon 46, kosmw 36, kosmov 31
In NET: world 176, world's 5, worldly 2, age 1
In AV: world 186, adorning 1
Count: 187
Definition: 1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order,
government
2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars,
'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. \\#1Pe 3:3\\
3) the world, the universe
4) the circle of the earth, the earth
5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God,
and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
7a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages,
pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting,
stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause
of Christ
8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
8a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (\\#Ro 11:12\\ etc)
8b) of believers only, \\#John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47\\
\\#1Co 4:9; 2Co 5:19\\

You right, God does love the world, but that doesn't imply that he loves every individual the same. Also you are missing the second part of that verse..

NET ©

For this is the way 1 God loved the world: He gave his one and only 2 Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish 3 but have eternal life. 4

You are not going to believe unless you a part of God's elect. The same problem carries on with Matthew 28, he does want to make deciples of all nations that doesn't imply everyone will believe. Also conciding with your argument if God really did love everyone he would orgenize a system in which he would show himself and everyone would clearly see he is the one. If God wanted everyone to get saved he would do so. And you are partially right we send ourselves to hell because we are responsible for our actions...because we all deserve HELL. Except God saves a select few through Grace.




...because non are rightous not one and we all deserve internal damnation...



But God has mercy on who he wants to have mercy...

First of all, don't pretend to preach Greek to me. I know a little more about it than that.

Second, no where in any of the Scriptures does it say anything about God loving anyone less than others. The kosmos is all encompassing. The text does not say "For God so loved the world, but some more or less than others...". No where is that even implied.

The rest of the verse also says nothing about those who do not believe. Do they not believe because God has not given them the gift of faith, or do they not believe because they have rejected God's giftg of faith and life won for them on the cross of Christ which is for all Men? The latter is true.

I do not doubt at all that there are those whom God has chosen before the foundation of the world for His purpose. But that does not at all suggest that they are the ONLY ones to be saved or that others may not be able to lose their salvation.

 

[ReformedChapin]

First of all, don't pretend to preach Greek to me. I know a little more about it than that.

Second, no where in any of the Scriptures does it say anything about God loving anyone less than others. The kosmos is all encompassing. The text does not say "For God so loved the world, but some more or less than others...". No where is that even implied.

The rest of the verse also says nothing about those who do not believe. Do they not believe because God has not given them the gift of faith, or do they not believe because they have rejected God's giftg of faith and life won for them on the cross of Christ which is for all Men? The latter is true.

I do not doubt at all that there are those whom God has chosen before the foundation of the world for His purpose. But that does not at all suggest that they are the ONLY ones to be saved or that others may not be able to lose their salvation.

I never pretended to know more Greek than you, I am just showing you the definitions. It's sad that you bring pride to this argument when all I intend to show is truth.

Secondly, although it doesn't directly express that you cannot deny the clear passages that speak of God's elect. You clearly see in the OT that God choose Isreal and several of his decendents as his people and that carries on to the NT.

Other verses speak of how others will be blinded and and how regenerate believers have a new nature. If you connect the passages you clearly who will believe...the elect.

Isa6:10Make the hearts of these people calloused; make their ears deaf and their eyes blind! Otherwise they might see with their eyes and hear with their ears, their hearts might understand and they might repent and be healed.&#8221;1


Isa42:16I will lead the blind along an unfamiliar way; 1 I will guide them down paths they have never traveled. 2 I will turn the darkness in front of them into light, and level out the rough ground. 3 This is what I will do for them. I will not abandon them.

You clearly see through the NT that God has elect and is seen over and over. Not only that but it shows how God is directly involved in the entire process.


John

10:27 My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 10:28 I give 67 them eternal life, and they will never perish; 68 no one will snatch 69 them from my hand. 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, 70 and no one can snatch 71 them from my Father&#8217;s hand. 10:30 The Father and I 72 are one.&#8221;73

Ephesians

1:4 For 8 he chose us in Christ 9 before the foundation of the world that we may be holy and unblemished 10 in his sight 11 in love. 121:5 He did this by predestining 13 us to adoption as his 14 sons 15 through Jesus Christ, according to the pleasure 16 of his will &#8211; 1:6 to the praise of the glory of his grace 17 that he has freely bestowed on us in his dearly loved Son. 181:7 In him 19 we have redemption through his blood, 20 the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace 1:8 that he lavished on us in all wisdom and insight. 1:9 He did this when he revealed 21 to us the secret 22 of his will, according to his good pleasure that he set forth 23 in Christ, 241:10 toward the administration of the fullness of the times, to head up 25 all things in Christ &#8211; the things in heaven 26 and the things on earth.

No where in scripture does it state that there is those he choose unconditional election and others for conditional. Scripture clearly shows were are all of his sheep and loves us and choose us.

 

[John1and1]

NewGuy

1) Is God evil in that He is unjust?

2) Is God evil in that He taunts men over things they have no control over? For instance would God taunt a person with downs syndrome and mock them?

3) Do you believe every passage in the bible?

4) What do you make of this passage, do you believe this one? If so please explain it.

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[ReformedChapin]

NewGuy

1) Is God evil in that He is unjust?

2) Is God evil in that He taunts men over things they have no control over? For instance would God taunt a person with downs syndrome and mock them?

3) Do you believe every passage in the bible?

4) What do you make of this passage, do you believe this one? If so please explain it.

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1) Nope

2) How is saving someone by Grace the same as tauting someone who is sick?

3) I believe in the inerrancy of scripture, I don't get why you would even bother asking this question.

4) This means that God wants everyone to be saved, but that doesn't mean he does it. BTW even by the arminian system if God wanted to save everyone he could do it as well but doesn't do it...so that argument doesn't work either way.

 

[John1and1]

1) Nope

2) How is saving someone by Grace the same as tauting someone who is sick?

3) I believe in the inerrancy of scripture, I don't get why you would even bother asking this question.

4) This means that God wants everyone to be saved, but that doesn't mean he does it. BTW even by the arminian system if God wanted to save everyone he could do it as well but doesn't do it...so that argument doesn't work either way.

please humor me and answer #2

 

[ReformedChapin]

please humor me and answer #2

What are you talking about? I did. I don't get your analogy. It's completely different.

 

[John1and1]

it is a very simple question

Is God evil, in that He taunts people for that which is not their fault? As in the example of someone with downs syndrome. Would God taunt someone over things they had no choice in?

 

[ReformedChapin]

it is a very simple question

Is God evil, in that He taunts people for that which is not their fault? As in the example of someone with downs syndrome. Would God taunt someone over things they had no choice in?

What you are saying is that sinners deserve that God saves them. And you are dead wrong on that one.