once saved always saved

Lion Heart · May 22, 2002

I worked on a sheep ranch once, that had lots of goats there also.

The sheep always ate all of the food given to them; while the goats, trampled the food and only ate what they liked to eat.

When it comes to eating the bread of life, Gods food, for his people, the sheep eat all that is given to them because they desire to be full.

Personal opinions, never make a difference, when compared to GODS Holy Word.

The sheep consume all of it. And the Goats pick and chose.
While trampling the rest.

If you can lose your eternal life, that means you never possesed it in the first place.

Back to the opinion board.

Richard

Lion Heart · May 22, 2002

Agreed and I appreciate your honesty.

In the end he will divide the sheep from the goats, for now some sheep do act like goats and it is because they are not interested in feeding on the word that gives life.

Thank you, Richard

Caedmon · May 22, 2002

Originally posted by ScottEmerson
My personal opinion is that sin is forgiven for those who choose to follow Christ. Once we follow, there is no sin that can cause us to lose our salvation. However, in the same manner that we CHOOSE to follow Christ, we can also CHOOSE to reject him. That is what I believe Peter and the book of Hebrews talks about - Real people with Real salvation who Really choose to not follow Christ.

Such verses such as "Nothing can snatch them out of my hand," still ring true in such an understanding - however, CHrist did not preclude those who walk away out of their own free will...

Free will... HAHAHA!... oops, sorry... pardon me... :o

I'll be glad to debate that reading with anyone if they want - it seems to be a rapproachment between Arminianism and Calvinism, each of which have fatal flaws in their doctrine and logic...

Well that might have been an interesting argument, if a person really could be something other than Calvinistic or Armenian.

(Don't even get me started on the Five Points - by Calvin's own definition, if one point falls, they all fall, and Irresistable Grace is Bibically unattainable...but I suppose that's a different thread all together...)

And so essentially, you don't believe that all that go to Heaven did persevere to the end. Sounds like personal opinion to me... counselor.

Ben johnson · May 22, 2002

If you can lose your eternal life, that means you never possesed it in the first place.

Is this belief born out in Scripture?

Defender of the Faith 777 · May 22, 2002

Lovely Gerry. Always gotta be some comic relief.

Once we accept God into our hearts, He will never leave us or forsake us. Once the Holy Spirit is TRULY in our hearts, we will never WANT to have Him leave.

My position is that our state of salvation cannot change unless our place of salvation changes. Good thing mine's Jesus!

Here's the intellectual reason why: If God truly came into our hearts, then we will never want Him out. If we want Him out, He was never really there. Is it that hard to understand? The reason why is because once God puts something somewhere, it cannot be removed. If it is, IT WAS NEVER PLACED THEIR BY GOD! So once saved, of course always saved.

Believing otherwise is believing that we must add works, our own (for goodness' sake!), to the finished work of Christ. (pst... remeber when Jesus shouted His triumphant dying breath on the cross, "IT IS FINISHED!" ?)

Ben johnson · May 22, 2002

for now some sheep do act like goats and it is because they are not interested in feeding on the word that gives life.

Richard, may I ask you a couple of questions? How does this (what-I-quoted), jibe with "THerefore you will KNOW them by their FRUITS", what Jesus said? If there are "sheep-who-act-like-goats", then what makes them sheep?

Thanx in advance...

Defender of the Faith 777 · May 22, 2002

If she was ever really saved, would she really have wanted to do that? If she really found God and the Holy Spirit entered her heart, she most likely wouldn't have done that.

You're lucky. LDS are the easiest to witness to with apologetics. Praise God!

LouisBooth · May 22, 2002

"If there are "sheep-who-act-like-goats", then what makes them sheep? "

There are several things you need to think about when asking this question ben. Yes goats act like sheep, but God can discern them, we cannot. So to us they are sheep. The know them by their love or fruits as you put it is just a general rule of thumb. For God judges the heart, something we can never do. That's the point.

Ben johnson · May 22, 2002

Louis, I wasn't asking about "goats who act like sheep", but rather "sheep who act like goats". Yes God knows the "goats-in-sheeps-clothing". BUt the statement was, "sheep-who-act-like-goats". And I'm thinkin', well, if it LOOKS like a goat, walks and talks and ACTS like a goat...

...isn't it a GOAT???

Didaskomenos · May 22, 2002

And I'm thinkin', well, if it LOOKS like a goat, walks and talks and ACTS like a goat...

...isn't it a GOAT???

In other words, you will know them by their fruits.

Andrew · May 23, 2002

-------------------
---------------------------------
BUt the statement was, "sheep-who-act-like-goats". And I'm thinkin', well, if it LOOKS like a goat, walks and talks and ACTS like a goat.....isn't it a GOAT???
---------------------------------
Arent you contradicting yourself??? You just said "sheep who acts like a" ie IT IS a sheep. and its only "acting like" a goat. IOW it is still a sheep!

Ben johnson · May 23, 2002

Arent you contradicting yourself??? You just said "sheep who acts like a" ie IT IS a sheep. and its only "acting like" a goat. IOW it is still a sheep!

Andrew, that was my question. And it was not me who said it, but Richard (the LIONHEARTED) :

In the end he will divide the sheep from the goats, for now some sheep do act like goats and it is because they are not interested in feeding on the word that gives life.

...and I'm thinkin', welll HEEEYYYYYY, if they ACT like goats, if they are not interested in feeding on the word that gives life, how then are they still sheep? And NOT GOATS???

In other words, you will know them by their fruits.

What HE said!

Andrew · May 23, 2002

Ben,

Sometimes, it's hard to tell whether a person is truly saved or not. And one cant judge just by looking at the person's lifestyle. Unless you know the person very well and have 'interviewed' him regarding what he professes abt Christ, u may never know. The reverse is true also.

you are either a sheep or not one. and even as a sheep, if you fall into the pig sty you wont like it there for long, cos your true nature is a sheep. but falling into the pig sty does not transform u into a pig.

in the end, God knows, and he is able to make those whom he has saved stand to the end.

LouisBooth · May 23, 2002

"rather "sheep who act like goats". "

well, then I would say they were never a sheep to begin with. Just like it is said, "away from me, I never knew you."

Ben johnson · May 24, 2002

And one can't judge just by looking at the person's lifestyle

Why? When Jesus said, "You will know them by their fruits", what do you think He meant? If I see someone bar-hopping and picking up "one-night-stands", can I say that he is unsaved? Would I be right or wrong to say that?

Andrew · May 24, 2002

-----------------------
If I see someone bar-hopping and picking up "one-night-stands", can I say that he is unsaved? Would I be right or wrong to say that?
-----------------------
You might be right you might be wrong. This person might just be a Christian angry at God at this point in time in his life cos his wife left him for another man or something so he's in a rebellious phase. IOW u could be wrong, Of course, if u got to know him better, and found out more, you cld be right.

btw: He was talking about telling a true prophet of God from a false one, not about whether this guy is saved or not.

Ben johnson · May 24, 2002

You might be right you might be wrong. This person might just be a Christian angry at God at this point in time in his life cos his wife left him for another man or something so he's in a rebellious phase

This is the difference in some of our perspectives. You say "he can be rebellious and actively practicing sin, but still saved.

I say that "he ain't saved".

Is there a way to find out which view is right?

LouisBooth · May 24, 2002

"Why? "

Ahh..there is the problem. It is written that ONLY God can see a man's heart and know a man's spirit. We cannot therefore we cannot judge it.

"If I see someone bar-hopping and picking up "one-night-stands", can I say that he is unsaved? Would I be right or wrong to say that?"

I would say its a safe bet, but you can't know for sure.

edpobre · May 25, 2002

Originally posted by Andrew
Ben,

Sometimes, it's hard to tell whether a person is truly saved or not. And one cant judge just by looking at the person's lifestyle. Unless you know the person very well and have 'interviewed' him regarding what he professes abt Christ, u may never know. The reverse is true also.

you are either a sheep or not one. and even as a sheep, if you fall into the pig sty you wont like it there for long, cos your true nature is a sheep. but falling into the pig sty does not transform u into a pig.

in the end, God knows, and he is able to make those whom he has saved stand to the end.

Andrew,

The Bible tells us who are those who do NOT have CONDEMNATION and those who are ALREADY dondemned. We do NOT have to wait until Christ comes again to know who WILL meet him in the clouds and be with him for ever.

Rom. 8:1 states: "There is therefore NOW no condemnation to those who are IN CHRIST Jesus, who do NOT walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit."

Who are those who are IN Christ Jesus? They are those who are INSIDE the church that Christ will save because Christ is the SAVIOR of the church (Eph. 5:23).

They are those those whose sins have been forgiven because they have been delivered from the power of darkness and translated into the kingdom of God's son in whom there is redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins (Col. 1:13-14).

This kingdom is the church of Christ which Christ PURCHASED with his own blood (Acts 20:28 LAMSA).

Apostle Paul clled members of this church "churches of Christ" (Rom. 16:16), much like how they are called in these last days.

These people will meet Jesus in the air when he comes and will be with him for ever (1 Thes. 4:16-17).

Ed

Ben johnson · May 25, 2002

The Bible tells us who are those who do NOT have CONDEMNATION and those who are ALREADY dondemned. We do NOT have to wait until Christ comes again to know who WILL meet him in the clouds and be with him for ever.

Rom. 8:1 states: "There is therefore NOW no condemnation to those who are IN CHRIST Jesus, who do NOT walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit."

Exactly that, Ed! Well said!

And 'tis but an extension of Jesus' own words, "You will KNOW them BY THEIR FRUITS. No good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good fruit". When Jesus says "no good tree produces bad fruit", I BELIEVE IT!

(With respect to Louis...)

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