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once saved always saved

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Die Allerbeste, Dec 4, 2001.

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  1. edjones

    edjones Active Member

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    Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH ETERNAL LIFE, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (John 5:24)
     
  2. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +375
    Christian
    And what if they then "disbelieve"? What if there is found "an evil, unbelieving heart, hardened by the deceitfulness of sin unto falling away from the living God"? (Heb3)

    Is it possible to believe, and then disbelieve?
     
  3. edjones

    edjones Active Member

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    Not for me!! Praise the Lord!
     
  4. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    Married
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    "Is there some rule that prevents me from returning to belief at some point in the future"

    No, but there is one that prevents you from turning away...Neither hieght nor depth...can seperate us from the love of God, once you're saved you don't go back...that's just a biblical principle. Gal 2:20 shows that, as does that passage...you're a law breaker if you rebuild what you destroyed.
     
  5. Didaskomenos

    Didaskomenos Voiced Bilabial Spirant

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    Ben,

    Perhaps your critique of when "eternal life" begins is correct, or perhaps it's another example of the oft intrusive semantical dilemma in language. But I don't see how 2 Peter adds new light to the situation. It in no way takes away from my very profound and simple thesis that those who aren't finally saved are not saved, whether they at any time have known God (remember, so has Satan). Epignosis, BTW, is better translated "perception" or "recognition" (as it is in BAGD), indicating a primarily cognitive grasp of Jesus as Lord and Savior.

    I am merely defining my own sense of "salvation" apart from the petty vestigial meaning of that word which many people talk about losing or never losing.
     
  6. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +375
    Christian
    Hello, Didask! 2Pet2 is very clearly speaking of saved people. Who have "ontos-apofuego-truly-escaped-through-the-epignsis-true-knowledge-of-the-LORD-and-SAVIOR-JESUS-CHRIST". THere are those who contend that they were never really saved. But 2:1:3-4 describes "escapers of corruption in the world through lust, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence", as SAVED. It is very dishonest to contend that the 2:2:20 "escapers" were never saved when the 2:1:4 "escapers" are undeniably saved.

    They are the same "escapers"...
    ;) @ Ed
     
  7. Didaskomenos

    Didaskomenos Voiced Bilabial Spirant

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    Ben, Ben. You didn't read my post closely. I said, sure! they were "saved" in that they accepted redemption, but they forfeited it, and thereby gave up the distinction of being TRULY saved, saved in the end. You're putting the words "truly and "true" into the Greek. I promise, they're not there.

    This passage actually lends credence to my view. These folks have escaped the corruption of the world. That is one aspect of salvation: the most exigent aspect, that of the forgiveness of sin and the equipping to live righteously. However, by giving up this aspect of their salvation, they never achieved the final culmination of salvation: eternal life with Him. These differing types of salvation show that the modern term "salvation" is made to bear a oft-divergent load that it is in incapable of sustaining without causing the confusion we see here among people meaning different things by it.
     
  8. edjones

    edjones Active Member

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    By Watchman Nee

    One of the first basic items which the Lord revealed to Watchman Nee was the believersÂ’ assurance of salvation. Throughout all of China in those days, the scriptural teaching of the assurance of salvation was seldom taught by any Christian group. Watchman Nee, however, became exceedingly clear concerning this matter and preached the gospel to Christians to help them realize that they were saved. He was able to show from the written Word that the believer can be absolutely assured of his salvation. He would help the doubtful to take a Bible verse like John 3:16 and digest it until it became a definite word to them that they could never perish. He also pointed out to them that the Spirit of God dwells in them and witnesses with their spirit that they are GodÂ’s children (Rom. 8:16). A further evidence of the assurance of salvation was given by Watchman Nee from 1 John 3:14: "We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren."
     
  9. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

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    Christian
    "Ontos"

    I think we're very close in this...

    ;)
     
  10. edjones

    edjones Active Member

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    Some Christians did not know the difference between salvation and victory. This was another cause of uncertainty regarding their salvation. At the moment we believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, our salvation is secured [John 10:28]. Victory [1 Cor. 15:57], however, is a matter of overcoming sin [Rom. 6:14; 8:2], the world [1 John 5:4], the flesh [Gal. 5:24], the self, and all other negative things in our daily living. Our eternal destiny as children of God is forever secured by simple faith in Jesus Christ for our salvation. But victory is a matter of our daily life and is related to dispensational reward [2 Cor. 5:10; Rev. 22:12].

    By Watchman Nee
     
  11. Didaskomenos

    Didaskomenos Voiced Bilabial Spirant

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    LOL, ontos doesn't appear in 2 Pet at all. Or maybe you're talking about another passage and I'm some kind of moron! :D
     
  12. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +375
    Christian
    I do not think you are a moron. (Of course, if you really believe in flying saucers, we might need to re-negotiate the term....)

    ;)

    2Pet2:1 False prophets, false teachers....

    2:2:14 ...who never cease from sin... (NEVER!)

    2:2:18 ...false ones seek to entice those who have TRULY ESCAPED (ontos apofuego) (click here, then click on "3689 ONTOS")

    2:2:20 the "truly-escaped" (see 2:1:4) fall back into the defilements of the world, away from Jesus

    2:2:21 ...better to have never been SAVED (never KNOWN the way of righteousness), than after HAVING KNOWN, to TURN from the holy commandment (fall from salvation)

    2:2:22 They had left their defilements and corruptions behind, but they returned to them just as a dog returns to vomit and sow to mire...

    (Some argue "they never stopped being dogs-and-sows!"---not a good argument---they had ESCAPED through the TRUE KNOWLEDGE of the LORD and SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST---if this doesn't mean "saved", WHAT DOES??? See 2:1:4)

    :p
     
  13. edjones

    edjones Active Member

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    Note that all of the enclosed verses are written directly in proper context to the born again believer. No vague or unclear passages are used to offset the clear passages in the scriptures.

    Please look at these verses carefully and see what the Bible says about the believer's salvation.

    ALL BELIEVERS ARE POSITIONALLY NOW IN HEAVEN

    "(God)...hath RAISED us up together, and made us sit together IN HEAVENLY PLACES in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:6).

    ALL BELIEVERS ARE MEMBERS OF THE BODY OF CHRIST

    "For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones" (Eph. 5:30).

    "But now hath God set the members every one of them IN THE BODY, AS IT HATH PLEASED HIM.. .Now ye are the BODY OF CHRIST..." (I Cor.12:18,27).

    Will Christ be in heaven missing a foot or a hand? How absurd! A young girl was asked, "Aren't you afraid you might slip through the Lord's fingers?" "No Sir, I AM ONE OF HIS FINGERS," she replied.

    ALL BELIEVERS ARE COMPLETE IN HIM

    "And ye are COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the head of all principality and power" (Col. 2:10).

    If we could lose our salvation we would not be complete in Him.

    ALL BELIEVERS ARE ACCEPTED IN THE BELOVED

    Paul wrote that God "...hath made us accepted in the beloved" (Eph. 1:6).

    "The sinner can not make himself acceptable to God. Our acceptance by God, therefore is not based upon our practice, but rather upon our position in Christ." 1

    ALL BELIEVERS ARE SAVED BY GRACE

    WITHOUT ANY MIXTURE OF WORKS

    "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES; it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8, 9).

    "Now to him that worketh is the reward NOT RECKONED OF GRACE, but of debt" (Rom. 4:4).

    "And if by grace, then is it NO MORE OF WORKS; otherwise grace is NO MORE GRACE" (Rom. 11:6).

    GRACE AND WORKS CANNOT MIX FOR SALVATION. Note also: Rom. 3:24; II Tim. 1:9; Titus 3:5.

    ALL BELIEVERS ARE CONFIRMED BLAMELESS UNTO THE END

    "Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be BLAMELESS in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ" (ICor.1:8).

    ALL BELIEVERS WILL APPEAR AT THE JUDGEMENT SEAT OF CHRIST

    "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's WORK shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's WORK of what sort it is. If any man's WORK abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's WORK shall be BURNED, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED: yet so as by fire"2 (I Cor. 3:11-15).

    ALL BELIEVERS ARE SEALED UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION

    "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are SEALED unto the day of REDEMPTION." (Eph. 4:30)

    (The Bible did NOT say, "sealed unto the day of damnation; but REDEMPTION." Did you note the difference???)

    Seal in scripture denotes OWNERSHIP. Therefore we are God's possession. Can God lose us? The Holy Spirit has promised to keep us. Will God break His promise? NO!! (Eph. 4:30).

    Earnest means the Holy Spirit's promise with an obligation to fulfill. He will keep His promise.

    "In whom (Jesus Christ) also we have obtained an inheritance, being PREDESTINATED according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL: That we should be to the praise of his glory who first trusted in Christ: In whom ye also trusted after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were SEALED with that Holy Spirit of PROMISE, which is the EARNEST of our inheritance UNTIL THE REDEMPTION OF THE PURCHASED POSSESSION, unto the praise of his glory" (Eph. 1:11 -14).

    ALL BELIEVERS ARE PRESERVED UNTO THE HEAVENLY KINGDOM

    "And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and WILL PRESERVE ME unto his heavenly kingdom..." (II Tim. 4:18).

    ALL BELIEVERS SHALL NEVER THIRST AGAIN

    "Jesus answered and said...But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him SHALL NEVER THIRST" (John 4:13, 14). You could not say this about a man that could lose his salvation. He could thirst again.

    ALL BELIEVERS HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE

    Everlasting means lasting or enduring forever; eternal; existing or continuing without end; immortal. (Webster's American Dictionary)3

    "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH EVERLASTING LIFE, and SHALL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION. . ." (John 5:24). The Lord did not say that he that believes has only "temporary" life.

    "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him SHOULD NOT PERISH, but HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE" (John 3:16). It would not be everlasting if you could lose it.

    ALL BELIEVERS ARE SECURE IN THE LOVE OF GOD WHICH IS IN CHRIST

    "For I am PERSUADED, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is IN CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD"4 (Rom. 8:38, 39).

    ALL BELIEVERS ARE SECURE IN THE HAND OF CHRIST

    "And I give unto them eternal life; and they SHALL NEVER PERISH, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (John 10:28).

    ALL BELIEVERS ARE ALSO IN THE FATHERS HAND

    "My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand" (John 10:29).

    JESUS WILL NEVER LOSE A BELIEVER
     
  14. Didaskomenos

    Didaskomenos Voiced Bilabial Spirant

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    HA! :D No, I don't believe in UFO's or aliens or anything. But I hold to the idealogy of wanting to believe in Truth even when it's denied and covered up (X-Files fashion).

    "Oligos" is the word, not "ontos." Must be a typo in the Blue Letter Bible. If you look again, you'll see the word "oligos" in Greek, with the word "ontos" in English next to it. "Oligos" means "barely, scarcely." "Ontos" is in the Textus Receptus, but not in other Greek manuscripts.

    What are we arguing about? I agree.

    I don't argue that, except the words "true knowledge," which are a translation of "epignosis." Both BAGD and Swanson's Dictionary of Biblical Languages With Semantic Domains: Greek (New Testament), say it means simply "knowledge" or "acknowledgment." But either way! I'm not disputing that they have known God. Or are you talking to someone else? :confused: :sorry:
     
  15. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

    +1,463
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    I'm guessing this is the place for this thread. I have no strong opinions yet; someone want to take a clear stand and start the inevitable?

    If we do it all in one thread, we don't have to have others.
     
  16. OldBadfish

    OldBadfish Well-Known Member

    +20
    Hi seebs, My opinion on this is: Once you are saved you must live your life as a saved Christian, if you backslide to the degree of no more faith or even just living without God in your life, then yes, I believe it is possible to lose your salvation.
    Once you KNOW that you are saved, then you know what you must do, if you live as a devout Christian, then choose to go back to a life devoid of God, then I would be concerned about salvation.

    I believe there are degrees of backsliding that may effect salvation.
     
  17. Gerry

    Gerry Jesus Paid It All

    +12
    RATS! I had hoped this would be a place to discuss Bible doctrine rather than opinion. But I can see as you say the inevitable comes. The debate rages on and there is only an exchange of "opinions" mostly based on incorrect teachings.

    The opinions are strong, and the minds are closed and it turns to bitter arguments and fights. Seen it oh so many times.

    But for the record, in case anyone ever doubts where I stan, it is absurd to think you can lose your salvation and it is in MY opinion it is nothing short of blasphemous to suggest you can.

    People forever build a doctrine on a "verse", forever seeking those to justify thier opinion.

    Once in such a forum, no twice, I offered to give 101 verses to support Eternal Security, and did, but guess what? There is always a "BUT"!

    Anyway, though I will not participate in a debate, anyone seeing me on the forums will know where I stand on that issue anyway!
     
  18. VOW

    VOW Moderator

    +15
    Catholic
    Married
    To Gerry:

    There is Biblical support for BOTH positions, and it is not a matter of who can dig up the most Scripture.

    I enjoy a give-and-take on the discussion, for we all can learn from it. But when folks make the proclamation that only ONE belief is "correct," I think you're pushing the line. Ultimately, it's God's decision, not ours.


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  19. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    Vow, no offense, but I disagree that it is a matter of who can dig up the most Scripture. It is a matter of taking all Scripture in it's proper context, etc.
     
  20. MizDoulos

    MizDoulos <font color=6c2dc7><b>Justified by grace through f

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    RATS! I had hoped this would be a place to discuss Bible doctrine rather than opinion. But I can see as you say the inevitable comes. The debate rages on and there is only an exchange of "opinions" mostly based on incorrect teachings.

    Hi, Gerry ~ this is the place to discuss doctrine, not only offering opinions. Soteriology is precisely the doctrine of salvation. :)
     
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