Once Saved Always Saved....

[MrJim]

If sin can defeat us then Christ failed and we are all lost.

Perhaps it's if we allow sin to defeat us to the point we turn away we failed and not Christ. No one is saying Christ is failing in anything. However if we fail in remaining steadfast in obedience to Him, then we'll be cut off just as Israel was cut off (Rom 11). Seems like there are a lot of conditional aspects to this mysterious thing we call salvation.

 

[eldermike]

Perhaps it's if we allow sin to defeat us to the point we turn away we failed and not Christ. No one is saying Christ is failing in anything. However if we fail in remaining steadfast in obedience to Him, then we'll be cut off just as Israel was cut off (Rom 11). Seems like there are a lot of conditional aspects to this mysterious thing we call salvation.

Try this:
Is man, apart from God, capable of good?
Would it be a good thing for man to remain in obediance to Christ?

Now, explain how it's possible for you (a man) to remain in obediance.

The scriptures you are using simply explain God's grace to you, it's God that keeps you in Christ, not you.

 

[MrJim]

Try this:
Is man, apart from God, capable of good?
Would it be a good thing for man to remain in obediance to Christ?

Now, explain how it's possible for you (a man) to remain in obediance.

The scriptures you are using simply explain God's grace to you, it's God that keeps you in Christ, not you.

No, man apart from God in not capable of good--therefore if I turn away from God then I am not good...and am unable to remain in Christ.

Regarding Rom 11 it does seem like we are involved-particularly when it says that in v.22 that as long as "...you continue in his kindness" we will receive His kindness. It says earlier that the branches were broken off due to unbelief. So did God fail Israel in keeping them in the faith? And if the gentiles addressed here are broken off will it be God's fault?

Colossians 1:19-23 speaks about being reconciled in Christ-how we'll be presented holy and blameless "...if indeed you continue grounded and steadfast in the faith and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you have heard..." (ya know there are a few ifs in those scriptures).

I do not have the answers to this mystery. There are lots of verses that both sides can use. I was once hardcore Calvinist/double predestinarian (whole nine yards) for 10 years. I am not convinced of the position any longer, but honestly cannot answer to all that calvinists put forth. There is more mystery here than meets the eye.

"For God so loved the elect that He gave His only begotten Son... (just doesn't sound right...)...that when the chosen believe upon him...(isn't that how it should read?)

 

[eldermike]

No, man apart from God in not capable of good--therefore if I turn away from God then I am not good...and am unable to remain in Christ.

If you turn back to Christ is that a good thing you can do?

Think about it

 

[MrJim]

If you turn back to Christ is that a good thing you can do?

Think about it

With the conviction of the Spirit--why would I turn to Christ without it? See, I know where you are heading with this...and it ain't gonna work

 

[MrJim]

If you turn back to Christ is that a good thing you can do?

Think about it

With the conviction of the Spirit--why would I turn to Christ without it? See, I know where you are heading with this...and it ain't gonna work

 

[eldermike]

With the conviction of the Spirit--why would I turn to Christ without it? See, I know where you are heading with this...and it ain't gonna work

YOu caught me

 

[Jimmy West]

What scriptural basis can you give to biblically support this??? Show me one scripture..

I can't, but i wouldn't test it if I were you.

 

[Jimmy West]

I have debated this issue for some time. I totally agree, there is not a single scriptural basis for giving back ones salvation.
What they tend to do is define salvation as fellowship with Christ. What they miss is a very basic thing. If sin can defeat us then Christ failed and we are all lost.
Simply put; If salvation is the result of anything I did, or can do, there is no salvation, there is no cross, there is no reason to follow Christ, we might as well take the lead.

So, are you saying that a person who is saved, can make a major lifestyle change, and become a homosexual, live a homosexual lifestyle exclusively and still retain their salvation?

 

[carmi]

No, man apart from God in not capable of good--therefore if I turn away from God then I am not good...and am unable to remain in Christ.

But does it depend on my ability? I am looking (regularly ) at

[BIBLE]John 10:28[/BIBLE]

and

[BIBLE]John 10:29[/BIBLE]

Regularly as in: whenever I find myself unable ... Both verses tell me (or that's how I read them) that it (my salvation) does not depend on my ability to keep myself, stay, remain 24/7 .

 

[eldermike]

So, are you saying that a person who is saved, can make a major lifestyle change, and become a homosexual, live a homosexual lifestyle exclusively and still retain their salvation?

I am saying that God keeps us saved, otherwise there is no salvation through Christ. If a man would turn away could He return? The bible says no. Have any of us ever turned away? All of us have. It is our doctrine that drives our understand of scripture. We throw around words like "fall" or "turn" as if we are part of God's plan of salvation, in on it from the begining so to speak. Salvation bring Glory to God. Can I reduce God's glory?

If man can do nothing to please God, apart from God, How can one who is apart from God do a good thing and return?

 

[MeekOne]

I thought you guys might like to see this....It was done quite well:

http://www.lifetalk.net/2ndcoming/ee.html

 

[brotherjim]

. . . If man can do nothing to please God, apart from God, How can one who is apart from God do a good thing and return?

Whoever,

While we cannot, IN AND OF OURSELVES, do anything to please God, we most certainly can please Him by receiving His Graces and getting out of their Way ("I must decrease; He must increase").

And we most certainly can do things to DISplease Him: Hebrews 10:26-29.

The lawless in heart will disagree, of course (nothing personal implied by me).

brother jim

 

[MrJim]

This is a quote from a letter to Philip Melanchthon from Martin Luther--currently being debated on GT. Letter found at:

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/letsinsbe.txt

13. If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner. On the day of the Feast of St. Peter the Apostle, 1521


I think the last line is great...

 

[JPPT1974]

Once that you always ask Christ into your heart and life as Savior & Lord, you are always saved in Him! And are born again!

 

[93fleetwoodlowlow]

once saved we are in the hands of the Father and nothing or no one can pluck us out, right? ok by that then saying you can lose salvation is saying that there is something out there stronger than God. i dont think you are saved by just saying Jesus save me please, i think you have to believe it and mean it when you ask for redemption.

 

[Athanasian Creed]

once saved we are in the hands of the Father and nothing or no one can pluck us out, right? ok by that then saying you can lose salvation is saying that there is something out there stronger than God.

John 10:28-29 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

NO WHERE in these two verses does it mention that WE ourselves cannot divorce ourselves from God - in them we also see our safety, if we truly, humbly, cordially, and daily commit ourselves to God the Saviour. In no other way can we have evidence that we are his people than by such a persevering resignation of ourselves to him, to obey his law, and to follow him through evil report or good report. If we do that we are safe. If we do not that we have no evidence of piety, and are not, cannot be safe.


Same applies in Romans 8:38, 39 -

Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Mentions any 'other' creature but does not mention the individual themselves.

i dont think you are saved by just saying Jesus save me please, i think you have to believe it and mean it when you ask for redemption.

Right, salvation is conditional upon continuing to abide in Christ. We are created in Christ unto good works (Eph. 2:10), made a new creation upon salvation (2 Cor. 5:17)- the old passes, the new begins. IF we love Him, we will keep His commandments (John 14:15) and His Words (John 14:23) We are told to continue (an act of free will) in Christ's love (John 15:9)



Ray

 

[93fleetwoodlowlow]

John 10:28-29 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

NO WHERE in these two verses does it mention that WE ourselves cannot divorce ourselves from God - in them we also see our safety, if we truly, humbly, cordially, and daily commit ourselves to God the Saviour. In no other way can we have evidence that we are his people than by such a persevering resignation of ourselves to him, to obey his law, and to follow him through evil report or good report. If we do that we are safe. If we do not that we have no evidence of piety, and are not, cannot be safe.


Same applies in Romans 8:38, 39 -

Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Mentions any 'other' creature but does not mention the individual themselves.





Right, salvation is conditional upon continuing to abide in Christ. We are created in Christ unto good works (Eph. 2:10), made a new creation upon salvation (2 Cor. 5:17)- the old passes, the new begins. IF we love Him, we will keep His commandments (John 14:15) and His Words (John 14:23) We are told to continue (an act of free will) in Christ's love (John 15:9)



Ray

good lookin out Ray but i do believe you in a sense added on to my comment. it does say no man but we are still man. we can be out of the will of God but i dont think salvation can be lost if at one point we really ment it. i like the saying "you dont get saved to run to sin, you get saved to run from it." but i dont think we can lose salvation. i agree with everything else you had to say.

 

[brotherjim]

. . . No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. . . .

The above is actually a perversion of the Scriptures. It has no basis in the Bible. It a mere opinion of a mere man.

I assume the writer is twisting Romans 8:35, 39, for that is what comes to mind as being most familiar with it. But the passage, in Truth, speaks of God's Love for us, and does not address the issue of eternal Life.

There are many passages in Scripture that clearly, without ambiguity, tell us God's requirements for eternal Life, such as 1 John 2:3-5; Luke 10:25-28; 1 John 4:16-18; Rev. 22:14; Eph. 2:8-9. We do not get to pick and choose only the ones we want; all apply.

And a covenant is a binding agreement between 2 parties, each having an obligation to the Covenant. While Romans 8 speaks of God's Love for us, it does not mention anything about our Love for Him, or lack thereof---and rightly so, for such is clearly spelled out in such as John 14 as being necessary if we are to remain/abide in Christ.

brother jim


P.S. Mennonite theology would also take exception to that which I quote.

 

[brotherjim]

1 John 4:16-18:

"And we have known and believed the Love that God has to us. God is Love; and he that dwells in Love remains in God, and God in him. [Conversely---]

"Herein is Love made perfect with us, that we may have boldness in the Day of Judgment: because as He is [perfect in Love], so are we in this world [IF indeed we are].

"There is no fear in Love; but perfect Love casts out fear: because fear has torment. He that fears [the Day of Judgment] is not made perfect in Love."

But of course, many do not fear that Day as they should, having been "beguiled" (2 Cor 11) by a perverted gospel, their faith being the unfounded-in-Scripture faith of man and not the Faith of God, only thae latter able to yield "eternal salvation to all them that obey Him" (KJV).