Once Saved, Always Saved

[BlueRose]

Hoser--you hit a problem on the nose. How can there be so many divisions amongst all Christians, even on pretty important issues. It's not just with OSAS.

Pretty much all of these problems arise from interpretation. We are all bringing slightly different lenses to the text. Some just like to hold strong and true to what they were taught when growing up, thinking there's no way what they've believed so long could be wrong. But, others focus on different verses and grasp onto them, sometimes taking them out of context.

Often, there are a number of different opinions just due to the fact that the Bible doesn't flat out say everything in a perfectly clear manner. Proper hermeneutical procedures are needed. And sometimes, there's no 100% accurate answer, either, on certain issues.

All we have is the Bible, however. God does guide people, but many still have their own agenda and want to see things in a certain way. But still, the Bible is our only true "authority" and guide. God places people in church leadership--many of them wise--but these people are still using the Scripture for meditation, and interpreting as well. It's always best to consult others and recognize wisdom. But in the end, we all have to go back to the text ourselves to see how it measures up.

 

[hoser]

Hoser--you hit a problem on the nose. How can there be so many divisions amongst all Christians, even on pretty important issues. It's not just with OSAS.

Pretty much all of these problems arise from interpretation. We are all bringing slightly different lenses to the text. Some just like to hold strong and true to what they were taught when growing up, thinking there's no way what they've believed so long could be wrong. But, others focus on different verses and grasp onto them, sometimes taking them out of context.

Often, there are a number of different opinions just due to the fact that the Bible doesn't flat out say everything in a perfectly clear manner. Proper hermeneutical procedures are needed. And sometimes, there's no 100% accurate answer, either, on certain issues.

All we have is the Bible, however. God does guide people, but many still have their own agenda and want to see things in a certain way. But still, the Bible is our only true "authority" and guide. God places people in church leadership--many of them wise--but these people are still using the Scripture for meditation, and interpreting as well. It's always best to consult others and recognize wisdom. But in the end, we all have to go back to the text ourselves to see how it measures up.

Sorry, but I have to disagree with you on your last two paragraphs. First of all, sometimes there "may" not be a 100% accurate answer, but in most cases I strongly believe that there is. OSAS is either true or not true. One side on this issue is wrong. Jesus is either physically present in the bread at Holy communion or He is not. (some protestants believe that He is, most do not). One side it correct and the other is not.

The Bible is not all we have. We have the Church that has been around since the Apostles, who were guided to all truths from the Holy Spirit (Jn 15:26, Jn 16:13, Eph 3:5) and from that time on, there have been successors to those Apostles. I know it's hard to fathom, but scripture itself says that it is the Church that is the pillar and bulwark of truth (1 Timothy 3:15). What is a pillar? A pillar upholds things. What is bulwark? Bulwark is something serving as a defense or safeguard. So according to scripture it is the Church that upholds and defends the truth. Scipture is definately all true as it is the written word of God. But scripture is not the final authority, and it cannot be because of what has happened to Christianity after the reformation with thousands upon thousands of separate Christian churches with differing opinions on scipture. Holy Scipture is a useful tool for teaching... 2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness.

Jesus set up a Church to preserve His teachings. He set up a Church upon His Apostles, He did not tell them to write scripture. It is this Church that is the final authority on matters of faith and morals. The Church, the Bible, and Apostolic Tradition will never contradict one another. So please don't respond with "so you believe your church trumps scripture". NO! Nothing "trumps" scripture, but also nothing "trumps" the Church. They are equal and both are needed for the absolute fullness of truth.

 

[BlueRose]

But everything "the Church" now believes is from Scripture (or at least interpreted from it). I'd give the upper hand to scripture any day.

 

[hoser]

But everything "the Church" now believes is from Scripture (or at least interpreted from it). I'd give the upper hand to scripture any day.

Sorry to misunderstand, but what do you mean by "But everything "the Church" now believes is from Scripture"?

 

[nephilimiyr]

Jesus set up a Church to preserve His teachings. He set up a Church upon His Apostles, He did not tell them to write scripture. It is this Church that is the final authority on matters of faith and morals. The Church, the Bible, and Apostolic Tradition will never contradict one another. So please don't respond with "so you believe your church trumps scripture". NO! Nothing "trumps" scripture, but also nothing "trumps" the Church. They are equal and both are needed for the absolute fullness of truth.

And which Church is that hoser? You say it's the Roman Catholic Church, of course, but Orthodoxyusa says it's the Eastern Orthodox Church. Well, which is it?

Plus, please don't make the claim that there is very little difference between the two because Orthodoxyusa can make some pretty good arguements with you on that.

 

[linssue55]

I am frequently asked about this doctrine. In fact, I was asked about it again yesterday.

No it is not an issue over which a person's salvation is going to be won or lost so don't ya'll get nasty.

But my question is to the people who think that you can lose your salvation. Now I don't need any explanations about you being able to turn from God.

Let's deal with the following:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)


Now in accordance with what is said in Ephesians, can somebody please tell me why, if, as God's Word says, salvation is the GIFT OF GOD and NOT of works (meaning there is NOTHING you can do to earn it), why do people insist that they, of themselves and by some work of their own, can do something to LOSE what they had NO PART in giving to themselves?

This has always baffled me too....they FEEL they must somehow Improve the plan and promises of God....according to the Bible this is MAJOR arrogance on the part of the believer...I feel that they have this Incrediable urge to CONTROL things, like God didn't get it right the first time. ABSOLUTE ARROGANCE!!!!

 

[hoser]

And which Church is that hoser? You say it's the Roman Catholic Church, of course, but Orthodoxyusa says it's the Eastern Orthodox Church. Well, which is it?

Plus, please don't make the claim that there is very little difference between the two because Orthodoxyusa can make some pretty good arguements with you on that.

Well I say that it is the Catholic Church of course, however; realize that both the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church deny OSAS and both believe that Jesus is truely and physically present in the Eucharist.

 

[sojourner]

Zaac and Iinssue55

Let's start with the text from Eph 2:8-9, and Roman 4:16, II Tim 1:9 , John 1:13, Rom 11:6. All of these verses are referring to the saving of mankind. The redemption of mankind. Christ overcoming the fall.
This is all the Work of Christ on the Cross. We, that is man, cannot, could not correct the fall. Man could not give life from a dead mortal being. Christ saved mankind from the fall, freed mankind from the bondage to death and sin. So that man could do the work for which he was created. Read carefully the following vs of Eph 2:10. We are not saved BY works but saved to do works.

The salvation of man is the goal or end of man. It is the purpose for which God created man in the first place. We, mankind lost that ability to be in Union and communion with God when Adam sinned. Christ overcame the judgement of the fall so that man could again do the works for which he was created. The same thing Adam was doing before he decided to do it by himself.
Many Christians today have taken the opposite position. God will do it all for me. I can just sit back and reap the rewards. I think you will be shocked on judgement day. God has a purpose fro your existance and it is you and only you that can work it out with God. He will not do it for you.

In other words you must separate what Christ did for us, with man's response to that awesome Gift. To be able to be freely love and obey our creator.

This has always baffled me too....they FEEL they must somehow Improve the plan and promises of God....according to the Bible this is MAJOR arrogance on the part of the believer...I feel that they have this Incrediable urge to CONTROL things, like God didn't get it right the first time. ABSOLUTE ARROGANCE!!!!

No, not control, but fulfilling our created mandate. A mandate which will either be rewarded with Being IN Christ for an eternity or and eternity apart from Him.
If you think that God is going to do for you what he specifically created you to do and will call you on it, it makes a big difference in how you believe what constitutes the whole plan of salvation.
It is not arrogance, but humble obedience and faithful living to His sovereign will.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Amen to Sojo

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

2 Peter 2:20-22

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Heb 10:29 clarifies it. "How much worse punishment do you think will be diserved by those who have spurned the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified and outraged the Spirit of Grace."

We are talking here about real saved persons. And their souls are in danger.

If you think that God is going to do for you what he specifically created you to do and will call you on it, it makes a big difference in how you believe what constitutes the whole plan of salvation.

AMEN !!!!! That is such a great thing. MANY reps to you !!!!

All of you.

 

[Singinman]

I think all of us on this thread find it totally inconcievable that a Christian could reject his or her salvation. This would not be the act of a sane person.

So lets look at a little theological history. Baptist (some) are the only Christians I know who hold to OSAS as a formal doctrine. If others do, I am ignorant of the facts and freely admit it. Even for us, this is not an ancient dogma. It only dates back to the 1850's when J. R. Graves kicked off the Landmark movement amoung Baptists in the Southern United States. Somehow the perseverance of the saints morphed into OSAS.

The issue, to me, revolves around free will. Yes salvation is a gift from God. If man has free will then individual men and women can accept His gift at their choosing. If man does not have free will, then God will save whom he pleases, at His discretion whether or not the saved one wants salvation or not. But we are not done yet. Some might say that the saved might have had free will before salvation but surrender that freedom to God. I think those peculiar proof texts in Hebrews and 2 Peter acknowledge that the saved continue to have free will even after salvation. Those who freely stay in faith will persevere as God is ever gracious and capable of carrying out His role in our salvation. Ephesians says salvation is God's gift by faith. Abosolute truth. But a gift is only a gift if the giver is free to give it and the recipient is free to accept or reject it. Now to close the circle, do we accept the theoritical possibility, in free will, that the recipient of grace may want to throw it back in God's face, may choose to reject his gift. That is a very human way of severing a relationship. Think of all the young ladies who have given engagement rings back to young men. Think of parents who have written children out of their wills. Think of my mother who told me on my 12th birthday that she tried to have me aborted under state law that required three physicians to sign the forms. (This little piece of my life's trivia tends to pop up around this time of year.) She wanted to give back to God the spark of life within her. Humans can do unthinkable things and that I believe is reality that inspired the texts that warn us of the consequences of apostacy.

Thank you for reading. I am new to these forums have have learned much from each of you.

May God grant us the will to celebrate our common ground in faith even as we explore our differences.

 

[hoser]

I think all of us on this thread find it totally inconcievable that a Christian could reject his or her salvation. This would not be the act of a sane person.

This is not inconceivable at all. It would be correct to assume that the closer someone is to Christ the less chance that that person would ever walk away. So someone that is giving their total life to Christ, doing missionary work or whatever it may be, would be much more unlikely to turn his/her back away from Christ, but not impossible. You can never know the circumstances in someones life. It most certainly is possible for someone who "in protestant language, was "saved"", having lived a very Christ centered life. But then the chips start falling in this persons life. He/she loses his/her job. This person has a child die due to an auto accident and then the stress of all this causes this persons spouse to leave. Don't you tell me that situations like these do not occur. It is very plausable that this person would crack up and become un-Christian like and fall into depression and sin and whatever. People that tell me that it is impossible to turn your back away from Christ are living in a fantasy world. It is certainly possible.

 

[linden77]

I think all of us on this thread find it totally inconcievable that a Christian could reject his or her salvation. This would not be the act of a sane person.

2 Tim 2:13 if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself.

So lets look at a little theological history. Baptist (some) are the only Christians I know who hold to OSAS as a formal doctrine. If others do, I am ignorant of the facts and freely admit it. Even for us, this is not an ancient dogma. It only dates back to the 1850's when J. R. Graves kicked off the Landmark movement amoung Baptists in the Southern United States. Somehow the perseverance of the saints morphed into OSAS....

Except for Paul, Peter, James.

Linden

 

[Singinman]

Hoser, I'm sorry I did not make myself clear. All those circumstances you mention are real and people do loose touch with God under the stress of life and death and grief and mental illness. I do not think God will abandon these people. I'm talking about in average times a stone cold sober rational human, as an act of will deliberately choosing to go back to a pre-saved state. This is what I believe Hebrews is talking about. The OSAS theologians who try to defend this doctrine insist that this cannot happen. I insist that my concept of freewill, which derives from our "image of God" in Gen 1, allows us to take this step. This is what I call an incomprehensible act. I've been stressed many times in the 46 years since I was born again, during some of these times a little doubt shoved me in the direction of apostacy. I cannot get there however, because I know what God through Christ has done for me. In the words of my favorite hymn:

He is able, He is able
He is willing doubt no more.

Now the flip side of the free will coin is pre-desitenation which is its logical form says God destined me, before the world was born, for either heaven or hell and nothing I can do, no act of faith, can ever change that. That is why I cannot accept pre-destination. The doctrine denies Grace. "For God so loved the world that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish." That sounds like grace not pre-destination.

 

[pentecostal girl]

A question for OSAS.. What is a Christian who is not Christ-like? Have a blessed day

 

[linssue55]

Zaac and Iinssue55

Let's start with the text from Eph 2:8-9, and Roman 4:16, II Tim 1:9 , John 1:13, Rom 11:6. All of these verses are referring to the saving of mankind. The redemption of mankind. Christ overcoming the fall.
This is all the Work of Christ on the Cross. We, that is man, cannot, could not correct the fall. Man could not give life from a dead mortal being. Christ saved mankind from the fall, freed mankind from the bondage to death and sin. So that man could do the work for which he was created. Read carefully the following vs of Eph 2:10. We are not saved BY works but saved to do works.

The salvation of man is the goal or end of man. It is the purpose for which God created man in the first place. We, mankind lost that ability to be in Union and communion with God when Adam sinned. Christ overcame the judgement of the fall so that man could again do the works for which he was created. The same thing Adam was doing before he decided to do it by himself.
Many Christians today have taken the opposite position. God will do it all for me. I can just sit back and reap the rewards. I think you will be shocked on judgement day. God has a purpose fro your existance and it is you and only you that can work it out with God. He will not do it for you.

In other words you must separate what Christ did for us, with man's response to that awesome Gift. To be able to be freely love and obey our creator.

No, not control, but fulfilling our created mandate. A mandate which will either be rewarded with Being IN Christ for an eternity or and eternity apart from Him.
If you think that God is going to do for you what he specifically created you to do and will call you on it, it makes a big difference in how you believe what constitutes the whole plan of salvation.
It is not arrogance, but humble obedience and faithful living to His sovereign will.

You know what, works is going to be burned at the last judgement.....the BIGGEST bonfire in the history of the World..."it is NOT of WORKS, lest ANY MAN should BOAST". Are you Boasting???

 

[linssue55]

This is not inconceivable at all. It would be correct to assume that the closer someone is to Christ the less chance that that person would ever walk away. So someone that is giving their total life to Christ, doing missionary work or whatever it may be, would be much more unlikely to turn his/her back away from Christ, but not impossible. You can never know the circumstances in someones life. It most certainly is possible for someone who "in protestant language, was "saved"", having lived a very Christ centered life. But then the chips start falling in this persons life. He/she loses his/her job. This person has a child die due to an auto accident and then the stress of all this causes this persons spouse to leave. Don't you tell me that situations like these do not occur. It is very plausable that this person would crack up and become un-Christian like and fall into depression and sin and whatever. People that tell me that it is impossible to turn your back away from Christ are living in a fantasy world. It is certainly possible.

Hoser very true. We as christians STILL sin and we will continue until the day we die.

Look at King David for instance...(the bible doesn't say HOW he got out of fellowship) but when he saw Bathsheba on the roof naked, he had to have her. She was in love with her husband, and in the Original language he r-ap-ed her (David). Then when he found she was pregnant he had her husband murdered, Horia the Hittite. Finally after almost a year of being Carnal he confessed his sins and was forgiven. 1 John 1:9 But the discipline from the Lord went on for 11 yrs.

It can certainly happens to christians, and even Great christians like David.

 

[linssue55]

Zaac and Iinssue55

Let's start with the text from Eph 2:8-9, and Roman 4:16, II Tim 1:9 , John 1:13, Rom 11:6. All of these verses are referring to the saving of mankind. The redemption of mankind. Christ overcoming the fall.
This is all the Work of Christ on the Cross. We, that is man, cannot, could not correct the fall. Man could not give life from a dead mortal being. Christ saved mankind from the fall, freed mankind from the bondage to death and sin. So that man could do the work for which he was created. Read carefully the following vs of Eph 2:10. We are not saved BY works but saved to do works.

The salvation of man is the goal or end of man. It is the purpose for which God created man in the first place. We, mankind lost that ability to be in Union and communion with God when Adam sinned. Christ overcame the judgement of the fall so that man could again do the works for which he was created. The same thing Adam was doing before he decided to do it by himself.
Many Christians today have taken the opposite position. God will do it all for me. I can just sit back and reap the rewards. I think you will be shocked on judgement day. God has a purpose fro your existance and it is you and only you that can work it out with God. He will not do it for you.

In other words you must separate what Christ did for us, with man's response to that awesome Gift. To be able to be freely love and obey our creator.

No, not control, but fulfilling our created mandate. A mandate which will either be rewarded with Being IN Christ for an eternity or and eternity apart from Him.
If you think that God is going to do for you what he specifically created you to do and will call you on it, it makes a big difference in how you believe what constitutes the whole plan of salvation.
It is not arrogance, but humble obedience and faithful living to His sovereign will.

Works....."Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the LAW of FAITH. Rom 3:27

 

[DrBubbaLove]

If a perfect man can turn his back on God, how can we possibly think we are not able?

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

"Once Saved - Always Saved" and is a logical application of John Calvin's teaching of soteriological determinism and absolute double predestination. Calvin taught that once we come to faith, we cannot NOT believe, we're locked into faith. He taught that we have NO free will of any nature or type before we believe - and NO free will after we believe, it's all just a matter of fate. Some Calvinists continue this doctrine today. The great majority of Christians disagree.



Here are MY thoughts...


There is a Law/Gospel dynamic here. The "answer" is not in trying to force the two to 'fit' together, but in their appropriate application.




IF a Christian was overwhelmed by their unworthiness and weakness, if they were overwhelmed by the power of sin and Satan, if they were truly concerned that they might not be saved, here's what I'd say:

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:29-39


"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. " John 3:16


"For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible. Mark 13:22


"but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life." John 4:14


"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. John 20:28


"The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it. 1 Thess. 5:24


"because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. Hebrews 10:14


"I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels." Rev. 3:5


I would NOT make doctrine out of these, but I would apply these - and others - to comfort and assure them.



IF the person thought, "Hey, why not eat, drink and be merry? Hey, I can do whatever I want, think whatever I want, believe whatever I want - because 'ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED!' Hey, I was baptized, hey I did the Billy Graham altar call thing, so I'm saved- NO MATTER WHAT!" Here's what I'd say:


"Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." John 15:4-7


"Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life. Rev. 2:10

"He who stands firm to the end will be saved." Matthew 10:22


"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons." 1 Tim. 4:1


"They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away." Luke 8:13


"If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples." John 8:31


"By standing firm you will gain life." Luke 21:19


"They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them" Hebrews 8:9


"You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace." Gal. 5:4


"If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel." Col. 1:23


"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God." Hebrews 10:26


"But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure." 2 Peter 1:8-10


"Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position." 2 Peter 3:17


He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. Rev. 3:5


"He who disowns Me before men will be disowned before the angels of God." Luke 12:8


And all the many verses that talk about being faithful... I would NOT make doctrine out of this, it's just the verses I might apply in such a case.



As so often in theology, we find there are "two sides of the coin." To ME, the approach is NOT to take all the Scriptures, subject them to our limited, fallable, sinful, human LOGIC and force them to "fit" and "make sense" to US. To ME, the approach is to accept both "sets" of scriptures at their face value and allow them to stand just as God inspired them. The approach, then, is in how to APPLY them rather than in how to force them to fit together.



MY view. What's YOURS?


Keep the faith! Share the love! - Josiah