Once Saved Always Saved - Why is it so hard?

supescritter said:

Please watch the video in the first post. "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." - walking after the flesh can be interpreted as "trying to follow the law of righteousness (instead of grace)". If interpreted in this way, a lot of the verses make sense to support OSAS. This is explained in the video, why "acts of the flesh" is interpreted as "trying to follow the law of righteousness".

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First, I already showed you that in Galatians 5:19-21, it mentions how the works of the flesh are: Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. I also showed you the context of Galatians 6:8 in how it is talking about circumcision if you were to read verse 13. In other words, you are basically ignoring the verses I have put forth in my previous post to you in favor of what you want to see.

Second, as for the video: Well, I am not interested in watching a video that goes against what I strongly believe. If you could highlight the points in Scripture here on the forum, that would be better.

Thank you.
And may God bless you.


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Jason0047 said:

Yes, I do strive to obey every literal command from Jesus and His followers. Why wouldn't I want to do that? Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments.

As for your point on Galatians 6:2: Well, this verse has to be read in context to Galatians 5:19-21 whereby it lists sins like murder, drunkeness, and adultery, etc. whereby those who do such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Meaning, there is a difference between a Christian stumbling on occasion (with true repentance) on his road to overcoming sin vs. (versus) say treating sin as if it is no big deal and that it will not cause a person to face the second death.

Remember, Jesus will send his angels and gather out of HIS Kingdom all who offend (sin) and who work iniquity (intense sin) and cast them into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire) (Matthew 13:41-42).


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So you strive to obey every literal command of Jesus.
You obviously dont invite friends and family home for a meal then but rather the less fortunate.
I mean, if you set your mind to it you can do that cant you.

As to your point concerning Gal6:2

Love fulfills the law, so your desperation is showing.

Jason0047 said:

Striving to obey all of God's laws under the New Covenant is better than not even trying to obey them or treating them as if they are not all that big of a deal. We are not our own lords. We are bought and paid for with a price. For we are Christ's workmanship created in Him for good works (and not evil works).

Tell me this. By looking at a person's life overall, should there be a difference between the "saints" and the "aints" behavior wise? Yes, or no?

If yes, then what is that thing that makes their behavior better?
Yes, surely Jesus helps our behavior, but we are not just obeying some voice in our ear. We obey the words of Jesus Christ and the words of His followers according to His Word. These words would be commands or laws. In fact, Paul says that what he had written should be regarded as the Lord's Commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37).


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You don't obey the words of Jesus followers do you, you oppose them.

A follower of Jesus repeatedly stated the christian is not under a righteousness of law

Jason0047 said:

Striving to obey all of God's laws under the New Covenant is better than not even trying to obey them or treating them as if they are not all that big of a deal. We are not our own lords. We are bought and paid for with a price. For we are Christ's workmanship created in Him for good works (and not evil works).

Tell me this. By looking at a person's life overall, should there be a difference between the "saints" and the "aints" behavior wise? Yes, or no?

If yes, then what is that thing that makes their behavior better?
Yes, surely Jesus helps our behavior, but we are not just obeying some voice in our ear. We obey the words of Jesus Christ and the words of His followers according to His Word. These words would be commands or laws. In fact, Paul says that what he had written should be regarded as the Lord's Commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37).


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The commandments. Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, AND WHATEVER OTHER COMMANDMENT THERE MAYBE are summed up in this ONE RULE.
Love your neighbour as yourself. Love does no harm to its neighbour. Therefore, love fulfills the law
Rom13:9&10

supescritter said:

Let me begin by saying I do not want to prove any point of view. When I want to know the true interpretation of a controversial theology, I read both sides. It upsets me when one side is clearly argumentative and trying to prove that they're right instead of considering both sides of the argument.

So I have read both sides thoroughly, and the problem is this: the side that believes "once saved always saved", I think, has the superior holistic view of all Scripture. The problem is that there are so many people convinced that believing in OSAS will result in many people going to hell, so the risk of believing OSAS is the greatest so you'd better be right. The other problem is that no matter how you feel about what God should do - it's irrelevant - whether you think something is right or not doesn't make it true. If you are confronted by God and God tells you you're wrong, you do not have the luxury of arguing with Him. Too many people believe in an interpretation based on what they feel is right.

Lastly: people need to realize that whatever you believe is just an interpretation of the Word - it doesn't mean it IS the Word, even though you quote the Bible. Both sides of the debate quote the SAME VERSES, but have different interpretations. It disappoints me when I read a website quoting all these verses as if their interpretation is correct without bothering to address the other side's interpretation of those same verses (and acting as if the other side has never seen those verses before).

I believe this is a difficult subject and therefore we must carefully and prayerfully ask God to give us the complete understanding of salvation.

So what do I want? I want a careful discussion of the controversial verses of salvation and whether you can lose it. And by careful I mean - let's not approach this with a presupposition and refuse to budge from it. Let's approach it from an attitude of seeking the truth realizing that we may be on the wrong side of it.

I think this is the most important subject in this entire site. There's no point in debating theology if we're not truly saved, therefore we should really really get this theology right.

I will begin stating my opinions in the next post. Thanks.

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Everyone is saved who trusts that God is the salvation.
There is no"before" or "after" timeline. God doesn't wait
for people to confess their sin, then send Jesus down again.
Those with saving faith in God become aware that only God saves.

Jason0047 said:

I remember watching the movie called:

"Encounter: Paradise Lost (2012)."
​

Both me and my wife watched this movie not too long ago on Pureflix. We both were really enjoying this film a lot, when all of sudden we got towards the end of it and we were both like, "Whaaaat???"

Here is part of the Script from one scene in the film:

Jesus:
Rik, can I
ask you a question?

Rik (who is a cop):
Can I stop you?

Jesus:
Is all this anger
and hatred,
is it going to bring
your sister Michelle back?

Bruno (A drug dealer):
What happened to her?

Jesus:
Overdose.
Heroin.​

And then in another scene (towards the end of the movie):

Jesus:
Rik, the moment has come.

Rik:
For what?

Jesus:
For you to decide if you're
going to follow my will to eternal life or your own to destruction.

Rik:
I think you know the answer.

Jesus:
Would it effect
your answer to know that Michelle is with me?
Her tragic cause of death didn't mean that she wasn't saved.
Michelle accepted that for herself
when she was. Now she stands in the very
presence of Father God himself. Her face glows with
joy and contentment beyond comprehension.
I want you to see her there. If you surrender to me
and my will, you will spend
eternity with her.​

Conclusion:

We were in shock! Are people who die of a heroine overdose (because they enjoyed their sin of heroin addiction) still saved just because they accepted Jesus as their Savior once when they were a child? The thing is that it really was a good movie (Except for that one scene). That part of the film was really horrible because it seriously misrepresents Jesus Christ.

However, I guess it should be no surprise. Something like this should be expected by OSAS that is so popular in our day and age today. But the problem with it is that morality or God's goodness has to go ignored on some level in order to justify it.

Side Note:

Oh, and yes, I went into the film knowing that it was not possible for Jesus to even appear like this. For Jesus will return in the same way He left (By the coming of the clouds). But I was willing to overlook that detail if the rest of the film was good enough so as to lead people to Christ. However, little did I know that the film supported immorality, though.


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DVDS on pureflix?

Why are you watching DVDs and TV?
Surely this is a distraction from you striving to obey 1050 literal commands.
As is being on this website arguing against the NC me thinks

supescritter said:

Hi Jason, I was trying to follow your thinking that there is a difference between Old Covenant Law which supposedly we are not to follow any more and the New Covenant Laws, which according to you we are supposed to follow. However, your last sentence threw me off. I think a lot of the supposed New Covenant Laws are in fact harder to follow than the Old Covenant Laws which you argue are a hindrance and that you say Paul doesn't want us to follow because it's too difficult.

So-called "New Covenant Laws" (verses interpreted by non-OSAS-believers to apply to Saints, as opposed to applying only to non-Christians as OSAS-believers argue) include "greed", "covetousness", "anger" and "lying" - which supposedly send you to hell (according to non-OSAS believers). This is the point of this entire thread, I contend it is impossible to follow those laws. Heck - I'd rather eat Kosher and be circumcized - the Old Covenant Laws are easier to follow than being perfect in "greed", "covetousness", "anger" and "lying" - universal human problems that we all have.

Now that you've presented the argument that you believe that Paul wants us to follow these "New Covenant Laws", can you please explain how it's less of a burden to be perfect in "greed", "covetousness", "anger" and "lying" type sins and how that is better than Old Covenant Laws in terms of burden? This is an honest question, because "greed", "covetousness", "anger" and "lying" is troubling me - I will have to pray the Catholic prayer of forgiveness that covers every conceivable sin that I might have inadvertently committed. See here:
http://www.followthissite.com/list-of-sins.php

Because "greed", "covetousness", "anger" and "lying" basically covers everyday follies, we will be under a constant condemnation and fear of loss of salvation if we believe that we can lose our salvation over these common sins. This is the point of this thread.

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Your post gives the reality of the situation.

However
You may get a reply such as:

It isn't hard to obey all the NT commands if we focus on Jesus instead of ourselves.

I was raised in a church where pat statements were reeled off. They had no reality in the day to day lives of those who made them.

Hi Jason, thanks for engaging

Jason0047 said:

Based on what Allan said in his videos, he has stated that there is "Initial Salvation" (Which is spoken about in Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5, etc.). He makes a statement like, "when you first got saved.", etc. This is obviously thru repentance of our sins and in believing in Jesus as our Savior in that He died and was risen again 3 days later on our behalf.

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Yes, I picked this up from Alan as well, and I get where he is coming from and can't disagree there. I do think it's important to make such a distinction.

Jason0047 said:

Sin is separation from God:

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Two things here.

Firstly, I think to post so many scriptures at once is unhelpful to the discussion. Each of those have to be discussed in their context and placing. It's impossible to do that adequately in a forum where we have to write responses to each other. Quoting so many scriptures can be helpful for a sermon (I see you've pasted that from one of your own sermons on your podcast ) but I don't believe it's helpful in the forum medium.

What I find more helpful in this medium is to just look at some core scriptures and try and get to the heart of things, understand the overall narrative, so we can all read the Bible better for ourselves.

Secondly, you have quoted scriptures that speak about repentance. One must not assume that a person struggling with a sin is not also repenting of it. See, here's the difference: someone who does not repent of their sin is obviously in danger of also losing their faith, but someone struggling with a sin is in a whole different area. Their struggle is a hint that they are repentant, but are struggling to stop nonetheless.

More on this below.

Jason0047 said:

the point is that Jesus changes lives for the better and not for the worse.

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Yes, of course, no arguments there

Jason0047 said:

Here is another example: What do you think would happen if there was no more speed limit on the highways here in the US? What do you think will happen? More people will speed and the number of car accidents will begin to rise. What keeps many (not all) people in line? The punishment.

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This analogy isn't quite workable for Christians. Here's why: the scripture promises that we have been given a new heart when we come to faith in Christ. Fear of punishment is for unbelievers, but fear of God is for believers. These are two different things.

Jason0047 said:

But the Bible teaches that there are dire consequences for one's soul in the after life if they commit certain serious sins (like murder, adultery, theft, lying, coveting, and idolatry) with no repentance.

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Again, you mention repentance. I don't think anyone would say that there must be no repentance. But one can be repentant and be struggling with an addictive sin. How will you deal with them?

See, it makes little sense to say this: if a man has lived in faith and repentance and has lived righteously all his life, but has a lustful thought for one moment while driving, and his rubbernecking causes him to crash into another car and die, that he will go to hell because there wasn't time to say 'sorry'. If you believe he will, you've just negated faith and made salvation by works.

But the Bible is clear that salvation is by faith, which leads to righteous works.

Jason0047 said:

Remember, when Adam sinned, he died spiritually that day. His eyes opened to his own nakedness.

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I'm glad you brought up Adam and Eve's sin. This goes to the very core of the problem IMO.

See, their sin was initiated by their unbelief. Unbelief causes sin. Sin is the symptom, unbelief the cause. They listened to the serpent's word rather than God's Word. They wanted to be 'like God', knowing good and evil - they wanted to have their own righteousness rather than God's righteousness. ('knowing' good and evil in the Hebrew points towards 'discerning' and actually deciding on good and evil, being judge of these matters). The original sin was unbelief in God and self-righteousness.

Now for the positive part:

Jason0047 said:

The Bible says anything that is not of faith is sin. Sinning is anti-faith. So when a person sins, they are going against the faith and God. In fact, all sin is ultimately done against God. It is rebellion against God. That is why sin is so serious. Sin is not to be taken lightly. It does more than just erode faith slowly. It can destroy a person's faith immediately.

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The ESV puts it this way: "For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin." (Romans 14:23). So here we see my point is illustrated: faith leads to righteousness, unbelief leads to sin.

This means that righteousness does not lead to faith. In fact, righteousness without faith will not get anyone anywhere with God. Since the scripture is saying that anything that does not proceed from faith is sin. Anything. So it is only righteousness from faith that counts for anything.

Thankfully, there's (God's) "righteousness for anyone who believes". (Romans 10:11.) Note what brings the righteousness: belief. Faith. I don't take this scripture to refer only to imputed righteousness, but a living righteousness - imparted and infused. It is for those who have faith and continue to live in faith and continue to grow in faith. As your faith grows, so does your righteousness. This righteousness only comes by faith. You cannot conjure up actual righteousness of the Jesus kind without belief and trust in Jesus as the core and foundation, as he is the Spirit that activates it, the Spirit of the law living in the heart that goes beyond the dead written code of the law but lives inside of you to bear fruit. If you do, you are working in self-righteousness-works mode and basically just repeating the original sin. Righteousness if given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. (Romans 3:22.)

Jason0047 said:

Faith and Sin are the two opposite sides of each other.
One is not central with the other being secondary.
One who does not have faith is in sin.

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Faith and sin are not opposite. Faith and unbelief are opposite. Unbelief leads to sin, faith leads to righteousness.

Jason0047 said:

One who is in sin does not have faith while they sin because sin is transgression of the law (1 John 3:4).

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Yes, sin is lawlessness. But Christ appeared to take away sins. (verse 5.) The significance of this is that we are not encouraged to take away our own sin, but to trust Christ to do it.

Jason0047 said:

God's laws are a part of the faith. If you break them, you go against the faith.

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You're switching from 'faith' to 'THE faith'. Well, THE faith is not the same thing. THE faith is Christianity, FAITH is actually living it.

Jason0047 said:

Can we repent and get ourselves right with God? Sure we can. But this leads us to walk in God's good ways and it does not lead us to think that we are flawed and broken and we cannot help but to sin (Whereby we will just ultimately break God's laws at some point). Jesus says he that sins is a slave to sin. Jesus did not say this favorably to the people he was talking to. Jesus says, with God all things are possible. So we can overcome sin and not put in danger our souls.

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We are in agreement here. So let's summarise where we are in agreement.

1. We both seem to believe that one only comes to Christ in initial salvation through believing in Christ, and not by works.
2. We both believe that Jesus will sanctify us 'through and through.' We both seem to believe in Christian perfection, or entire sanctification, or whatever it is you might call it.
3. Where we disagree is exactly the degree to which sin endangers someone to hell. Or, shall we say, the nature of the Law.

I'll put it like this as I think it might help. There are two kinds of laws. There is (1) the dead, written code (Old Testament) that has no power because it is not living. It is 'out there' and not inside the Christian. And there is (2) the law of Jesus, the living Law of the Spirit, the Law of Love (New Testament) which does live in the Christian.

Law (2) is where Christians live as they have this Spirit of the Law living in them, because they have put their faith in Jesus, the very Spirit of the Law. They enter into it by faith and grow in it and live in it only by faith, by persistent and growing trust in Jesus. However, if they try and live law 2 without faith, they put themselves under law 1 and its condemnation and, over time, negate faith.

I want you to note that Hebrews 6 - that famous scripture about losing salvation - refers only to apostasy. Not sin. Go check it out. This leads me to say that ultimately a Christian can be struggling (note the word struggling) in an addictive sin and still be saved. It is only when he gives up on his faith that his salvation is lost, but while he is still struggling and in the mode of constant repentance, his salvation is safe, even though his soul is seriously troubled.

The narrative of Israel is another clue. While God made them wander the wilderness, he never sent them back to Egypt. And what was Israel's main problem? They did not believe God. They did not have faith. Hebrews 3 & 4 shows us that this was their problem.

I suspect that some people who speak in the way you do have maybe not had to deal with the soul-wrenching and highly confusing problem of addictive sin. Forgive me if I make presumptions and am being unfair. When you really love God but find you are still sinning in a particular area, you find you have a real problem. You wonder if you are saved. You wonder why you can't seem to do anything about it. Repenting and confessing over and again seems to only assuage the problem but not take it away. You simply have no idea what's going on. This struggle is a sure sign of your salvation because the Spirit is obviously still with you, convicting you of the sin. Otherwise you would just carry on and indulge all your desires.

So what do you say to the person who 1. Believes they are sinning and 2. desperately wants to stop and 3. doesn't know why they aren't? I answer: you encourage them to believe that Jesus will take it away. You answer: you must tell them they are in mortal danger of their soul going to hell unless they stop. I ask: which one seems more in line with scripture? I answer: the first, because righteousness only comes by faith.

The penalty of sin brings great fear of sin, and fear of sin brings great allurement to sin.

In cold, hard religion therefore, sin runs rampant

A group of people go to church. They have been raised by loving parents in a secure and settled home. Statistically speaking they are far more likely to therefore come from the more intellectually gifted half of society and therefore the more affluent half.
And statistically these people, due to their upbringing are less likely to have affairs, use foul language, have an excessive drinking problem or to smoke( though this I not always the case)

They then attend church, confident they will attain heaven due to them not having what are considered the tabboo sins to stop them getting there.
Someone enters the church who was not so fortunate in their upbringing. They immediately feel uncomfortable. People dont chat to them as freely as they do to others. They are told salvation is free but then the imperfections they have must quickly be dealt with or they cannot be a christian. The person balks, they have smoked for decades and have many other long held vices. How can these so quickly disappear?
They may struggle for a while to be good enough, as the others in the church obviously are, but in the end they get dispirited and give up.

Hence the vast majority of core church membership I the majority of churches come from the more affluent half of society and the more intellectually gifted half.
Tragic!

In the first example of the parable of the sower, satan takes the word out of peoples hearts that was sown there. How can he do that?
He is subtle. Here before him stands a new convert, rejoicing in being saved because Jesus died for them. They are spotless in Gods sight, and they have done nothing to earn or deserve it. Simply repented and trusted Jesus is now their saviour. The word is sown in their heart
It would be nigh on impossible for satan to remove the word by convincing the new convert Jesus didn't die at Calvary, they are assured he did, so what does satan do?

He reminds the convert sin is separation from God. You cant be a Christian unless you live as God desires you to, so you must obey his laws. If you don't you are condemned.
The new convert fully accepts this for who could argue against such truth? However, the convert can no longer stand as he did the day he got saved, trusting he is saved because Jesus died for him. Now he must stand in a righteousness of observing the law or he is condemned.
Satan has now removed the word that was sown in the new converts heart

supescritter said:

Hi Jason, I was trying to follow your thinking that there is a difference between Old Covenant Law which supposedly we are not to follow any more and the New Covenant Laws, which according to you we are supposed to follow. However, your last sentence threw me off. I think a lot of the supposed New Covenant Laws are in fact harder to follow than the Old Covenant Laws which you argue are a hindrance and that you say Paul doesn't want us to follow because it's too difficult.

So-called "New Covenant Laws" (verses interpreted by non-OSAS-believers to apply to Saints, as opposed to applying only to non-Christians as OSAS-believers argue) include "greed", "covetousness", "anger" and "lying" - which supposedly send you to hell (according to non-OSAS believers). This is the point of this entire thread, I contend it is impossible to follow those laws. Heck - I'd rather eat Kosher and be circumcized - the Old Covenant Laws are easier to follow than being perfect in "greed", "covetousness", "anger" and "lying" - universal human problems that we all have.

Now that you've presented the argument that you believe that Paul wants us to follow these "New Covenant Laws", can you please explain how it's less of a burden to be perfect in "greed", "covetousness", "anger" and "lying" type sins and how that is better than Old Covenant Laws in terms of burden? This is an honest question, because "greed", "covetousness", "anger" and "lying" is troubling me - I will have to pray the Catholic prayer of forgiveness that covers every conceivable sin that I might have inadvertently committed. See here:
http://www.followthissite.com/list-of-sins.php

Because "greed", "covetousness", "anger" and "lying" basically covers everyday follies, we will be under a constant condemnation and fear of loss of salvation if we believe that we can lose our salvation over these common sins. This is the point of this thread.

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You are right in that the Law of Moses was the schoolmaster so that all would know that they HAVE sin and need Christ, their Savior.

THe Law was never meant to be permenant. In Jeremiah, Old Testament God tells Israel there will be a New Covenant.

THis is not something Jesus followers or us made up. This is in the Old TEstament and told to Israel, way before Christ was even born.

stuart lawrence said:

The penalty of sin brings great fear of sin, and fear of sin brings great allurement to sin.

In cold, hard religion therefore, sin runs rampant

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Very true.

Even the apostle Paul says this. That in his mind he wants to follow and not sin, but that his flesh is weak and does not always do what his mind wants him to do or that he wants to do himself.

THe more one thinks about sin, the more one puts that in their mind and in their flesh, which is weak. We are by NO MEANS to ignore our sin, but to put it at the forefront of our mind and thinking creates the reverse affect for us because our flesh is so, so weak. All of us. Our flesh is weak.

We are indeed called to the opposite of SIN, to love. Love covers a 'multitude' of sin. So love and being loving is where our minds need to be. Love is keeping our eyes on Christ, not on sin which leads to more sin. Paul was clear on this.

God's Word tells us to be from the heart. That is what God looks at, is the heart.

supescritter said:

Hi Jason, I was trying to follow your thinking that there is a difference between Old Covenant Law which supposedly we are not to follow any more and the New Covenant Laws, which according to you we are supposed to follow. However, your last sentence threw me off. I think a lot of the supposed New Covenant Laws are in fact harder to follow than the Old Covenant Laws which you argue are a hindrance and that you say Paul doesn't want us to follow because it's too difficult.

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Well, the list of sins in the New Testament you gave me is not exactly correct in my opinion. There are no Scriptural references. The following website list would be more accurate (because it leads you to read the actual verse in Scripture).

1,050 New Testament Commands | Christian Assemblies International

There are a few commands that I did not see on CAI’s list (click on the spoiler button to check them out):


However, the Old Testament Laws were clearly more difficult to follow than the New Testament because it involved many rituals and observances, etc. Just look at the Torah here and it is literally endless.

Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

We do not have that in the New Covenant. The only symbolic acts we perform is baptism (which is a one time event) and the Lord's Supper (which was generally done during fellowship with other believers every week when they met in each other's homes).

Also, there were death penalties attached to certain laws within the Torah, as well. This is not the case for the Commands in the New Testament.

The primary focus in the New is loving God and loving your neighbor (Which is the moral law).

We have many liberties in Christ that we did not have before.

I mean, a person was stoned in the Old Testament for not keeping the Sabbath.

Would you really want to be under that?

Besides, Paul was clearly referencing the Law of Moses.

Superscritter said:

So-called "New Covenant Laws" (verses interpreted by non-OSAS-believers to apply to Saints, as opposed to applying only to non-Christians as OSAS-believers argue) include "greed", "covetousness", "anger" and "lying" - which supposedly send you to hell (according to non-OSAS believers).

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There is no "supposedly" about it, my friend.
The Bible clearly states it.

Jesus says,
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).

28 "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." (Matthew 5:28-30).

“But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matthew 6:15).

“36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.”
(Matthew 12:36-37).

“It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.” (Matthew 19:24).

Paul says,
“For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.” (1 Timothy 6:10).

Paul says,
19 “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21).

Paul says,
5 “Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.”

John says,
“Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.” (1 John 3:15).

John says,
“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

Jesus says,
“41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”
(Matthew 25:41-46).

“But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death” (Revelation 21:8).

Superscritter said:

This is the point of this entire thread, I contend it is impossible to follow those laws. Heck - I'd rather eat Kosher and be circumcized - the Old Covenant Laws are easier to follow than being perfect in "greed", "covetousness", "anger" and "lying" - universal human problems that we all have. Now that you've presented the argument that you believe that Paul wants us to follow these "New Covenant Laws", can you please explain how it's less of a burden to be perfect in "greed", "covetousness", "anger" and "lying" type sins and how that is better than Old Covenant Laws in terms of burden? This is an honest question, because "greed", "covetousness", "anger" and "lying" is troubling me - I will have to pray the Catholic prayer of forgiveness that covers every conceivable sin that I might have inadvertently committed. See here:
http://www.followthissite.com/list-of-sins.php

Click to expand...

When a person accepts Jesus as their Savior and repents of their sins, and they are asking Jesus to obey Him according to His Word alone and not by what some church says they will have the power to overcome things like greed, covetousness, anger, and lying, etc. For Jesus said, with man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible. Meaning Christ living in you will be able to help you to obey Him.

Also the source link you provided is not exactly what the Bible commands directly. They did not provide any Scriptural references for their command breakdowns. While some of things on their list could be categorized as sin, there are other things that are not stated as sins on their list within the Bible. The Bible is the source of authority for a Christian’s life. It is not in some church and their teachings (that cannot be clearly found in God’s Word).

The best course of action in having a good start with God is just:


Then you will be able to test to see which body of believers you want to decide to have fellowship with. For if we must study [the Word] to show ourselves approved unto God; A workman who is not ashamed (2 Timothy 2:15).

Superscritter said:

Because "greed", "covetousness", "anger" and "lying" basically covers everyday follies, we will be under a constant condemnation and fear of loss of salvation if we believe that we can lose our salvation over these common sins. This is the point of this thread.

Click to expand...

Follow what the Bible says and do not a website list of sins (that cannot provide any Scriptural references for you to check out and read for yourself). Ask God for help. Ask Him to show you the truth on this matter. Don’t give up. Sometimes you may have to keep asking over and over and over again to the Lord to help you to find the truth.

May God bless you on your desire to walk with God.

With loving kindness to you in Christ,

Sincerely,

~ Jason.




...

HatGuy said:

This is how I'm currently working it out, and it makes scriptural sense to me. In every group of verses that speak about what we ought to do, there is first a discussion on faith. In all the warning verses, faith is always the central factor and sin the secondary one.

For the record, I've been trying for four years to believe what the Word says: that Jesus will make me perfect (mature) and completely clean; that I am, indeed, dead to sin. I even wrote a book about it. It seems to me that your video dude is right: we have to really believe it, and God honours that faith and heals, just like he did in the scriptures. It takes time to truly believe, but he is also perfecting our faith.

I think the difficulty with this is it comes across as faith healing and Word of Faith stuff, when it is not. Perhaps the devil has purposefully tried to distort the teaching of faith so that we would not see God's ways here for what they really are.

Click to expand...

My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.


Many Christians, when talking about the issue of the sin, do not use the language and meaning of scripture. I hear Christians say things like, we'll always sin, we sin every day, etc. The problem is, that isn't what the scripture says. It doesn't say anywhere in scripture the words "when" we sin. It only says "if" we sin.


When we sin is an attitude that makes allowance for the sin in our lives. It says, this is the way I am and will always be this way. If we sin is an attitude that makes no allowance for sin and says I am not this way, nor do I always have to be.


Please understand, I am not talking about sinless perfectionism. I am simply stating what the scripture says: it is “if” not when. That means we never had to sin, and there is no excuse for any of our sin.

Is it “Good News” to know you cannot blame your sins on: “I am only human”?

This is the truth, but what preacher can preach this sermon and not be asked: “Then why do you sin?”

You have been inundated with Ro. 7 which takes a lot in the way of context to explain:

1. Paul extensively used diatribes (a debate between a made up student (or Paul himself) and the teacher which can be Paul or Go). The support for the wrong answer always come first but it can be before, just after or before and after the diatribe question. Paul’s diatribes are not Greek or Latin diatribes but mimic Diatribes in the Old Testament especially Psalms which a third of all Psalms could be described as Diatribes.
   
   
2. Paul being from Tarsus would have been very familiar with how great victorious Roman battles would described, since on every street corner of Tarsus and Rome there were monuments to battles. Below each monument (some still exist) is the dramatic description of the Battle with the brilliant general pulling the last minute victory in the end. These dramatic written descriptions were all done in “Historic Present Tense”, so that is the way you would dramatically describe a battle to the Romans.
   
   
3. In Ro. 7 Paul is dramatically describing his battle with sin using the historic present tense and going back to when he first understood the meaning of coveting (probably age 10-14). The “victory” comes with Ro. 8 ( the correct answer to the diatribe question).
   
   
4. Most of the Gospel of Mark was also written historic present tense with victory over death coming at the end and yet lots of losing and apparent loss going on to begin with.
   

Back to your subject:

Since the Holy Spirit cannot participate in sinning, would you first have to quench the Spirit to sin?

Have you ever been around a group of Christians that took comfort and joy in the fact they did not have to sin?

I was very happy as a Christian with the belief: “we all had to keep on sinning some, but would get better at not sinning over time.” All Christians sin so it did not really bother me. I did not send anyone on a guilt trip. All this went on wonderfully until I substituted one Sunday to teach a Bible class at the state youth prison (13-21 hard timers).

My experience went like this:

I got thrown into (volunteered if needed) with prisoners program teaching Bible (one hour on Sunday morning to a group of 14 with three other Christians teaching groups of 14) and taught three groups of “Christians”. The first group is guys (going to school it is called) that start out their stay causing trouble getting thrown in the tank. Then they start increasingly attending the services, carrying their Bible, being nice, and say they are Christians. By the time the parole board meets they have this glowing report showing continued improvement tied to their increased spirituality and are released. These guys still carry weapons, are members of a gang, and every prisoner know they just “went to school” to get out. The second group were converted before they went to prison (grandma conversions), but watch raunchy TV, hang with a loss group, laugh at off colored jokes, are not always talking about Jesus and are not trying to convert others. Their first day the snitches see this, the snitches talk to the Bulls that approach these “Christians” saying you are not a Christian and make them a slave (often sexual) or at best gang member. They still come to Bible study on Sunday so they can tell Granny (who visits them Sunday afternoon) what they learned, but they are slaves (sometimes sexually) to some bull. The third group is fanatical, they stick close to each other, they: study, pray, witness to everyone, and avoid even a hint of insincerity that the snitches could see. They carry no weapons, but step between those that are being beaten especially in persecution. They had grown over the last 3 years from just a couple of guys to now 42, but it came at a high price. Each convert had on the day he was baptized given up the protection of his gang membership, turned over his weapons along with all his possessions (the gang owns everything including them), they were beaten if not by the gang they left, then by other gangs looking for payback and then they were watch constantly looking for any sign the snitches might interpret as weakness (anything less than what Christ would do in the situation, would result in a beating with the hope of the gang to make them a slave, since only true Christians would die for the cuase). There is absolutely no privacy and these Christians never wanted to be found alone. They slept in barracks where at least one stayed awake all night praying over them, so they could sleep without the fear of being smashed in the head in the middle of the night. These guys believed and counted on power from the Holy Spirit, I did not know existed. They come battered and bruised each week hungry for some real meaningful Christ like lesson that goes beyond their group study of 40+hours that week on the same subject, which I could not provide. They mostly helped me with my poor example of Christianity and lack of knowledge and lack of wisdom.

The point is gang members could attend my class without retribution from their gang, but as soon as they committed to emersion baptism they were putting their life on the line, both from their old gang and gangs they had fought in the past.


One example of what I learned from them was: “You do not even try to keep from sinning (be on the defensive), but try to be involved in the next minute, in doing something really good (constantly on the offensive) then the Holy Spirit can be involved with you in doing and you keep doing good stuff all day and night and pick it up the next day. You just do not have time to be involved in any sinning.

Jason0047 said:

Well, the list of sins in the New Testament you gave me is not exactly correct in my opinion. There are no Scriptural references. The following website list would be more accurate (because it leads you to read the actual verse in Scripture).

1,050 New Testament Commands | Christian Assemblies International

There are a few commands that I did not see on CAI’s list (click on the spoiler button to check them out):

Spoiler

• Believe & confess that Jesus is God Almighty in the flesh (John 8:24 cf. John 8:57-59) (1 John 4:3).
• Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. (Mark 16:15)
• Visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction (James 1:27).
• Feed and clothe the poor, welcome the stranger, visit the sick, and those in prison (Matthew 25:35, 36).
• "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor" (Matthew 19:21)
• Thank God without ceasing. (1 Thessalonians 2:13)
• Receive the word of God not as the words of men, but as the very words of God (1 Thessalonians 2:13).
• Give to the poor needy brother; Especially if you wish them well (James 2:15)
• Pray the Lord's prayer (As an outline) (Matthew 6:9-13)
• Pray without ceasing (1 Thessalonians 5:17)
• Bear with them that preach another Jesus (2 Corinthians 11:4)
• Reprove the unfruitful works of darkness (Ephesians 5:11)
• Correct and train others in the Word of God (2 Timothy 3:16).
• Walk in the Spirit: This will result in the 9 fruits of the Spirit (Galatians 5)
• How to love according to 1 Corinthians 13.
• Keep the words of the prophecy of Revelation (Revelation 1:3).
• Live by speaking the Word of God (Which is our daily bread) (Matthew 4:4)
• Study to show yourself approved unto God (2 Timothy 2:15)
• Put on the whole armor of God (Ephesians 6:11-17)
• Be ye Holy as God is Holy (1 Peter 1:16)
• Do not add or take away from God's Word (Revelation 22:18, 19)
• If we as believers sin, we are to confess our sins (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9)
• Do all things thru Christ (Philippians 4:13)

However, the Old Testament Laws were clearly more difficult to follow than the New Testament because it involved many rituals and observances, etc. Just look at the Torah here and it is literally endless.

Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

We do not have that in the New Covenant. The only symbolic acts we perform is baptism (which is a one time event) and the Lord's Supper (which was generally done during fellowship with other believers every week when they met in each other's homes).

Also, there were death penalties attached to certain laws within the Torah, as well. This is not the case for the Commands in the New Testament.

The primary focus in the New is loving God and loving your neighbor (Which is the moral law).

We have many liberties in Christ that we did not have before.

I mean, a person was stoned in the Old Testament for not keeping the Sabbath.

Would you really want to be under that?

Besides, Paul was clearly referencing the Law of Moses.

#1. The word circumcision was the topic mentioned many times (Which surrounded the word “law” either in the previous chapter or the actual chapter itself).

#2. Paul says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

#3. New Testament Scripture was still being formed when Paul was writing his letters. He said that we should regard what he had written as the Lord’s commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37). Obviously there were more commands to come in other letters. So was why would Paul give us more commands or laws after writing about how we are not under any law? It doesn’t add up.​

There is no "supposedly" about it, my friend.
The Bible clearly states it.

Jesus says,
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).

28 "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." (Matthew 5:28-30).

“But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matthew 6:15).

“36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.”
(Matthew 12:36-37).

“It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.” (Matthew 19:24).

Paul says,
“For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.” (1 Timothy 6:10).

Paul says,
19 “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21).

Paul says,
5 “Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.”

John says,
“Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.” (1 John 3:15).

John says,
“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

Jesus says,
“41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”
(Matthew 25:41-46).

“But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death” (Revelation 21:8).



When a person accepts Jesus as their Savior and repents of their sins, and they are asking Jesus to obey Him according to His Word alone and not by what some church says they will have the power to overcome things like greed, covetousness, anger, and lying, etc. For Jesus said, with man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible. Meaning Christ living in you will be able to help you to obey Him.

Also the source link you provided is not exactly what the Bible commands directly. They did not provide any Scriptural references for their command breakdowns. While some of things on their list could be categorized as sin, there are other things that are not stated as sins on their list within the Bible. The Bible is the source of authority for a Christian’s life. It is not in some church and their teachings (that cannot be clearly found in God’s Word).

The best course of action in having a good start with God is just:

(a) You
(b) Your Bible
(c) God.​

Then you will be able to test to see which body of believers you want to decide to have fellowship with. For if we must study [the Word] to show ourselves approved unto God; A workman who is not ashamed (2 Timothy 2:15).



Follow what the Bible says and do not a website list of sins (that cannot provide any Scriptural references for you to check out and read for yourself). Ask God for help. Ask Him to show you the truth on this matter. Don’t give up. Sometimes you may have to keep asking over and over and over again to the Lord to help you to find the truth.

May God bless you on your desire to walk with God.

With loving kindness to you in Christ,

Sincerely,

~ Jason.




...

Click to expand...

The OT laws were more difficult to follow Tha the NT laws?

So it is easier not to commit adultery than it is to look at a woman with lust in your eye?

And the OT laws were more difficult to follow for they concerned rituals and observances.
Are you serious?
That law could be faultlessly obeyed, Pharisees faultlessly obeyed it.
It was the Moral law that could not be faultlessly obeyed, and Christ upped that law.

Your post is way off

bling said:

My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.


Many Christians, when talking about the issue of the sin, do not use the language and meaning of scripture. I hear Christians say things like, we'll always sin, we sin every day, etc. The problem is, that isn't what the scripture says. It doesn't say anywhere in scripture the words "when" we sin. It only says "if" we sin.


When we sin is an attitude that makes allowance for the sin in our lives. It says, this is the way I am and will always be this way. If we sin is an attitude that makes no allowance for sin and says I am not this way, nor do I always have to be.


Please understand, I am not talking about sinless perfectionism. I am simply stating what the scripture says: it is “if” not when. That means we never had to sin, and there is no excuse for any of our sin.

Is it “Good News” to know you cannot blame your sins on: “I am only human”?

This is the truth, but what preacher can preach this sermon and not be asked: “Then why do you sin?”

You have been inundated with Ro. 7 which takes a lot in the way of context to explain:

1. Paul extensively used diatribes (a debate between a made up student (or Paul himself) and the teacher which can be Paul or Go). The support for the wrong answer always come first but it can be before, just after or before and after the diatribe question. Paul’s diatribes are not Greek or Latin diatribes but mimic Diatribes in the Old Testament especially Psalms which a third of all Psalms could be described as Diatribes.
   
   
2. Paul being from Tarsus would have been very familiar with how great victorious Roman battles would described, since on every street corner of Tarsus and Rome there were monuments to battles. Below each monument (some still exist) is the dramatic description of the Battle with the brilliant general pulling the last minute victory in the end. These dramatic written descriptions were all done in “Historic Present Tense”, so that is the way you would dramatically describe a battle to the Romans.
   
   
3. In Ro. 7 Paul is dramatically describing his battle with sin using the historic present tense and going back to when he first understood the meaning of coveting (probably age 10-14). The “victory” comes with Ro. 8 ( the correct answer to the diatribe question).
   
   
4. Most of the Gospel of Mark was also written historic present tense with victory over death coming at the end and yet lots of losing and apparent loss going on to begin with.
   

Back to your subject:

Since the Holy Spirit cannot participate in sinning, would you first have to quench the Spirit to sin?

Have you ever been around a group of Christians that took comfort and joy in the fact they did not have to sin?

I was very happy as a Christian with the belief: “we all had to keep on sinning some, but would get better at not sinning over time.” All Christians sin so it did not really bother me. I did not send anyone on a guilt trip. All this went on wonderfully until I substituted one Sunday to teach a Bible class at the state youth prison (13-21 hard timers).

My experience went like this:

I got thrown into (volunteered if needed) with prisoners program teaching Bible (one hour on Sunday morning to a group of 14 with three other Christians teaching groups of 14) and taught three groups of “Christians”. The first group is guys (going to school it is called) that start out their stay causing trouble getting thrown in the tank. Then they start increasingly attending the services, carrying their Bible, being nice, and say they are Christians. By the time the parole board meets they have this glowing report showing continued improvement tied to their increased spirituality and are released. These guys still carry weapons, are members of a gang, and every prisoner know they just “went to school” to get out. The second group were converted before they went to prison (grandma conversions), but watch raunchy TV, hang with a loss group, laugh at off colored jokes, are not always talking about Jesus and are not trying to convert others. Their first day the snitches see this, the snitches talk to the Bulls that approach these “Christians” saying you are not a Christian and make them a slave (often sexual) or at best gang member. They still come to Bible study on Sunday so they can tell Granny (who visits them Sunday afternoon) what they learned, but they are slaves (sometimes sexually) to some bull. The third group is fanatical, they stick close to each other, they: study, pray, witness to everyone, and avoid even a hint of insincerity that the snitches could see. They carry no weapons, but step between those that are being beaten especially in persecution. They had grown over the last 3 years from just a couple of guys to now 42, but it came at a high price. Each convert had on the day he was baptized given up the protection of his gang membership, turned over his weapons along with all his possessions (the gang owns everything including them), they were beaten if not by the gang they left, then by other gangs looking for payback and then they were watch constantly looking for any sign the snitches might interpret as weakness (anything less than what Christ would do in the situation, would result in a beating with the hope of the gang to make them a slave, since only true Christians would die for the cuase). There is absolutely no privacy and these Christians never wanted to be found alone. They slept in barracks where at least one stayed awake all night praying over them, so they could sleep without the fear of being smashed in the head in the middle of the night. These guys believed and counted on power from the Holy Spirit, I did not know existed. They come battered and bruised each week hungry for some real meaningful Christ like lesson that goes beyond their group study of 40+hours that week on the same subject, which I could not provide. They mostly helped me with my poor example of Christianity and lack of knowledge and lack of wisdom.

The point is gang members could attend my class without retribution from their gang, but as soon as they committed to emersion baptism they were putting their life on the line, both from their old gang and gangs they had fought in the past.


One example of what I learned from them was: “You do not even try to keep from sinning (be on the defensive), but try to be involved in the next minute, in doing something really good (constantly on the offensive) then the Holy Spirit can be involved with you in doing and you keep doing good stuff all day and night and pick it up the next day. You just do not have time to be involved in any sinning.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the testimony, Bling, it was great.

Thanks also for the post. My interpretation of Rom 7 is pretty much the same as yours. It is resolved in Romans 8 and it does not describe the Christian life. (I say that Paul is showing what it's like if you go back to law for righteousness - you will then not be able to do what you want to do, etc.).

No real disagreement with your post. I think you should read my other posts to get a better idea of my position [emoji2] . My concern is a pastoral one. How do you counsel people with an addictive sin? Certainly not by telling them to stop it, but rather by giving them hope in both sides of the Gospel: justification and sanctification. See, I myself had an addictive sin for over a decade and it wasn't until I realised that faith, not trying harder, was how you walk in the Spirit, that I started seeing some victory with it. But I know I was saved during the years of hardest struggle, because I kept faith and believed in Christ for my salvation, and that was the point. Before I used to rely on my own amazing willpower. God, I believe, let me go into the wilderness to learn the hard lesson of my self righteousness and the power of faith in Jesus.