Once Saved Always Saved - Why is it so hard?

[stuart lawrence]

I am quoting my own verses within a post I made.
Please check them out.

If folks do not believe they are under no law, then what in the world do these verses even mean to you?
Are they just non-sense verses?
Explain them.

Anyways, Stuart, I will explain the other three verses you posted later.
I gotta run.
I will be back.

God bless you.


...

You mean you will try and do gymnastics with what those verses plainly state I order to come to a conclusion that contradicts them.
I can quote a lot more if neccessary

 

[stuart lawrence]

For sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law but under grace
Rom6:14

For through the law I died to the law so I might live for God.
Gal2:19

I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law Christ died for nothing
Gal2:21

Not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law but that which I through faith in Christ Phil3:9

Tell me you who want to be under the law...
Gal4:21

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In fact, Paul tell us we have to die to the law, and he uses as an example of this his inability to obey the Ten Commandments

What about people who murder and rape while they quote the Scriptures? Do you think these types of individuals are saved?

If not, then please explain.



....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

When you finally admit you have no scripture Tha states a christian is under law unto righteousness we can move on. As you originally started to this discussion by questioning a christian not being under law Thi point needs to be settled first

I already gave you plenty of verses that say that the Christian are under certain laws of righteousness. Can a Christian murder? No. (1 John 3:15) (Revelation 21:8). Can a Christian steal? No. (John 10:1) (John 10:10) (Revelation 21:8). Can a Christian commit lust in his heart? No. (Matthew 5:28-30). Can a Christian be a liar? No. (Revelation 21:8).

Paul says,

4 "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
(Romans 8:4-8).


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

For sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law but under grace
Rom6:14

Read the next few verses.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness"

Did you become a slave or servant to righteousness?
Paul says we have been freed from sin and we have become servants or slaves to righteousness. Has this happened for you, yet?

For through the law I died to the law so I might live for God.
Gal2:19

"But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law." (Galatians 5:18).
Are you led by the Spirit?

We can tell when a person is led by the Spirit, for they will have the fruits of the Spirit if they are led by the Spirit.

"...the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."
(Galatians 5:22-23).

Also, Galatians 5:24 says that they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts.

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:24).

Have you crucified the affections and lusts?

I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law Christ died for nothing
Gal2:21

Again, this is speaking of the Law of Moses. Try doing a search of how many times the word "circumcision" appears in Galatians 2.

Not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law but that which I through faith in Christ Phil3:9

Philippians 3:2 says beware of evil workers.
Paul also says, if any man speak contrary of the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness he is proud and knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).
James says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble (James 4:6).

Tell me you who want to be under the law...
Gal4:21

According to the context of Paul in his reference to the Law, I am not under the Law because he was referring to the Old Covenant Laws as a whole (i.e. the 613 Commands in the Old Testament). However, I am under the Laws of the New Testament or New Covenant because Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments. Do you love Jesus in this way?


...

 

[stuart lawrence]

I already gave you plenty of verses that say that the Christian are under certain laws of righteousness. Can a Christian murder? No. (1 John 3:15) (Revelation 21:8). Can a Christian steal? No. (John 10:1) (John 10:10) (Revelation 21:8). Can a Christian commit lust in his heart? No. (Matthew 5:28-30). Can a Christian be a liar? No. (Revelation 21:8).

Paul says,

4 "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
(Romans 8:4-8).


...

This is nonsensical. You have given me no scripture whatsoever that states the Christian is under certain laws of righteousness, none!!!

The bible states the christian has righteousness APART from law, NOT apart from SOME law.

The bible is clear on this, you don't understand the covenant, that is why you refuse to accept it

 

[stuart lawrence]

Read the next few verses.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness"

Did you become a slave or servant to righteousness?
Paul says we have been freed from sin and we have become servants or slaves to righteousness. Has this happened for you, yet?



"But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law." (Galatians 5:18).
Are you led by the Spirit?

We can tell when a person is led by the Spirit, for they will have the fruits of the Spirit if they are led by the Spirit.

"...the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."
(Galatians 5:22-23).

Also, Galatians 5:24 says that they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts.

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:24).

Have you crucified the affections and lusts?



Again, this is speaking of the Law of Moses. Try doing a search of how many times the word "circumcision" appears in Galatians 2.



Philippians 3:2 says beware of evil workers.
Paul also says, if any man speak contrary of the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness he is proud and knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).
James says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble (James 4:6).



According to the context of Paul in his reference to the Law, I am not under the Law because he was referring to the Old Covenant Laws as a whole (i.e. the 613 Commands in the Old Testament). However, I am under the Laws of the New Testament or New Covenant because Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments. Do you love Jesus in this way?


...

Do I really yet again have to prove to you Tha when Paul states the christian is not under law he means the WHOLE law, including the ten commandments????

The idea Christ died at Calvary to annul a law of righteousness/ save people from their sins concerning law that could be faultlessly obeyed is ridiculous

 

[stuart lawrence]

What about people who murder and rape while they quote the Scriptures? Do you think these types of individuals are saved?

If not, then please explain.



....

We could also add people who demand of others what they do not try and follow in their own lives. Christ reserved his harshest words for such people and said they did not know God

 

[stuart lawrence]

In romans 7:4-6 Paul states the christian must die to the law so they may live for God.
Sinful passions are aroused in people by the law when they live under it
The christian is released from the law and serves in the new way of the Spirit, not the old way of the written code/ law

WHICH LAW is Paul speaking of in those verses ?

In the next five verses he gives a personal example from his own life as to why he had to die to the law. The example he gave was: Thou shalt not covet, which is one of the Ten Commandments.

You may not understand it, but that is no excuse to dismiss it

 

[stuart lawrence]

Read the next few verses.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness"

Did you become a slave or servant to righteousness?
Paul says we have been freed from sin and we have become servants or slaves to righteousness. Has this happened for you, yet?



"But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law." (Galatians 5:18).
Are you led by the Spirit?

We can tell when a person is led by the Spirit, for they will have the fruits of the Spirit if they are led by the Spirit.

"...the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."
(Galatians 5:22-23).

Also, Galatians 5:24 says that they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts.

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:24).

Have you crucified the affections and lusts?



Again, this is speaking of the Law of Moses. Try doing a search of how many times the word "circumcision" appears in Galatians 2.



Philippians 3:2 says beware of evil workers.
Paul also says, if any man speak contrary of the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness he is proud and knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).
James says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble (James 4:6).



According to the context of Paul in his reference to the Law, I am not under the Law because he was referring to the Old Covenant Laws as a whole (i.e. the 613 Commands in the Old Testament). However, I am under the Laws of the New Testament or New Covenant because Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments. Do you love Jesus in this way?


...

Do you even try to obey each and every literal command of Christ?
If not, does This prove you don't love Jesus?
And if you don't even try to obey each and every literal command of Christ, why insist others must?

 

[ToBeLoved]

"But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law." (Galatians 5:18).
Are you led by the Spirit?

We can tell when a person is led by the Spirit, for they will have the fruits of the Spirit if they are led by the Spirit.

"...the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against this there is no law.
(Galatians 5:22-23).
...

Well I am glad you brought this verse forward today.

The problem with people or as you said "we can tell when a person is led by the Spirit" as your words above say is that we don't know where the person started out.

For instance, if a person biggest struggle is joy which is for many mentally ill people that have acute clinical depression or PTSD or Scruplosity many Christian judge that Christian saying they do not have fruit if the Spirit in say, for instance right now, "Joy".

However if the person once had much less joy, then it is very possible that someone looking at them at this moment could say they do not have 'fruit of the spirit' which would be incorrect if they at one time had much less joy. Not what society considers 'joy' to be, but what the Holy Spirit see's in that person's heart. If through the Holy Spirit they have more 'joy' today than they had two years ago and that Jesus and His power is the reason they have overcome even only part of the joy, than they do have fruit. Good fruit.

Now just because other Christians did not know that person two years back to see the differenence, does not mean that person does not have fruit, what it does mean is it is not for the person or Christian to decide what is fruit, good fruit and/or bad fruit. That is God's to see and to give God glory. Not that one Christian should have to prove the fruit in their own life to anyone else but their Maker and Savior.

This is why I am so against judgement. Because judgement many times only see's where one is now, today, not where they were two years ago or two months ago.

Each of us, as I believe I have shown in the above example of joy, has a different starting place with each fruit of the spirit and that has to be a consideration in looking at the fruit of the spirit.

I could go through each fruit individually if need be but I don't think that is necessary for us to see that fruit is relative to the amount previously of fruit. Not comparing one person to another person.

If you disagree, then please explain the last verse as it says "against this there is no law".

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Do you even try to obey each and every literal command of Christ?
If not, does This prove you don't love Jesus?
And if you don't even try to obey each and every literal command of Christ, why insist others must?

So Jesus was lying?
Did he not say if you love me, keep my commandments?


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well I am glad you brought this verse forward today.

The problem with people or as you said "we can tell when a person is led by the Spirit" as your words above say is that we don't know where the person started out.

For instance, if a person biggest struggle is joy which is for many mentally ill people that have acute clinical depression or PTSD or Scruplosity many Christian judge that Christian saying they do not have fruit if the Spirit in say, for instance right now, "Joy".

However if the person once had much less joy, then it is very possible that someone looking at them at this moment could say they do not have 'fruit of the spirit' which would be incorrect if they at one time had much less joy. Not what society considers 'joy' to be, but what the Holy Spirit see's in that person's heart. If through the Holy Spirit they have more 'joy' today than they had two years ago and that Jesus and His power is the reason they have overcome even only part of the joy, than they do have fruit. Good fruit.

Now just because other Christians did not know that person two years back to see the differenence, does not mean that person does not have fruit, what it does mean is it is not for the person or Christian to decide what is fruit, good fruit and/or bad fruit. That is God's to see and to give God glory. Not that one Christian should have to prove the fruit in their own life to anyone else but their Maker and Savior.

This is why I am so against judgement. Because judgement many times only see's where one is now, today, not where they were two years ago or two months ago.

Each of us, as I believe I have shown in the above example of joy, has a different starting place with each fruit of the spirit and that has to be a consideration in looking at the fruit of the spirit.

I could go through each fruit individually if need be but I don't think that is necessary for us to see that fruit is relative to the amount previously of fruit. Not comparing one person to another person.

If you disagree, then please explain the last verse as it says "against this there is no law".

Again, try researching the Bible on judgment. The Bible does not condemn judgment. In fact, you cannot hold to a standard of morality without judgment. For example, what sin burns you up or gets you mad?

Also, God is not going to ask you to believe something or doing something that would go against His goodness or laws. If one is led by the Spirit, they will be in obedience to God. See Galatians 5:24.


...

 

[stuart lawrence]

So Jesus was lying?
Did he not say if you love me, keep my commandments?


...

Do you even try to obey each and every literal command of Christ?

An honest answer is expected of a Christian

 

[stuart lawrence]

So Jesus was lying?
Did he not say if you love me, keep my commandments?


...

Paul doesn't view it the way you do:

Carry each others burdens( love them) and so FULFILL the law of Christ Gal 6:2.

You say we fulfill the law of Christ by looking to each and every literal command of Christ and striving to obey them. This is how we show we love Jesus.

You are on very dangerous ground indeed If you are not practising what you preach

Are you practising what you preach?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Again, try researching the Bible on judgment. The Bible does not condemn judgment. In fact, you cannot hold to a standard of morality without judgment.

There is some judgement that is righteous, but the person giving the judgement needs to be in agape love with the judgement. Only out of love for another, in NO WAY getting anything back sinful (ie.. pride, feeling superior, lack of humility, ect). Now you find me that person over time, and I will commend them, but it is not most brother. I don't think your judgement constantly is any agape love. Your getting something out of it. I'll stop there.

Do a little study into "agape love". That's the hard, hard love. That's what Jesus did. It was wonderfully miraculous. To love only for another.

 

[stuart lawrence]

When will some people realise the letter kills but the Spirit gives life

 

[ToBeLoved]

Also, God is not going to ask you to believe something or doing something that would go against His goodness or laws. If one is led by the Spirit, they will be in obedience to God. See Galatians 5:24.
...

I just love the way you change little words around that are BIG in matters changing the entire premise. It is eithier very purposefully or very ignorantly. One OR the other, not both, you're too good at it.

I'll start with the first point "God is not going to ask ...". I agree of course, God is never wrong in His judgement but God looks at the indivdual's deeds AND heart. Combination. And each individual. Note that He does not process us in one batch, but each of us is looked at by ourself and lead by the Spirit. That is a personal God. That is a just, righteous God.

Now your next point "If one is led by the Spirit ..." that is ASSUMING that we all PERFECTLY follow ALL of the Spirit's leading. But we do not. We follow some or most, but then some ends in sin to repentence.

So it is an assumption.

 

[ToBeLoved]

When will some people realise the letter kills but the Spirit gives life

When they have enough faith to believe ALL of God's Word, not just the parts they have the faith for.

Sometimes we need to jump off the side of the cliff. We believe things somewhat in faith and then the Spirit works on that faith until it is a complete reality. Not all faith is perfect faith. Christ's perfects faith, not us.

If they had enough faith in ALL God says in reality, they would jump and not be without the faith to jump and find the faith specifically for each thing later.

Can God lie? No, of course not. So we JUMP. Off the cliff.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Paul doesn't view it the way you do:

Carry each others burdens( love them) and so FULFILL the law of Christ Gal 6:2.

You say we fulfill the law of Christ by looking to each and every literal command of Christ and striving to obey them. This is how we show we love Jesus.

You are on very dangerous ground indeed If you are not practising what you preach

Are you practising what you preach?

You are VERY on today. Hitting every point. Love reading this thread today. Keep sharing your God given wisdom.