Once Saved Always Saved: True, False, or Misrepresented?

[Giver]

So, your perfect, and never fall short I guess. Paul said there is nothing good in him, that is in his flesh. We still have a flesh to deal with, and to die to daily. Our struggle daily, is against sin. We do what we do not want to do, and it is sin living in us. We don't go on sinning, as in, we don't continue to sin purposefully. That is the only way all of the scriptures work together. You can't take all of those verses, without all of the other verses as well. We are not good, but only God is good, His Spirit dwelling in and through us, that doesn't mean that we are good, that means He is good through us.

Jesus called us to be perfect, and he made it possible to become perfect.

You seem to be hung up on the verse where Jesus said only God is good. That was an Old Testament teaching, and Jesus used it to let the person he was addressing know that he was God, and good.

No one in the Old Law could be good, because Jesus has not come to defeat Satan/sin.

Jesus defeated Satan, and gave us his Holy Spirit so we could also defeat Satan/sin.

 

[squint]

Jesus called us to be perfect, and he made it possible to become perfect.

You seem to be hung up on the verse where Jesus said only God is good. That was an Old Testament teaching, and Jesus used it to let the person he was addressing know that he was God, and good.

No one in the Old Law could be good, because Jesus has not come to defeat Satan/sin.

Jesus defeated Satan, and gave us his Holy Spirit so we could also defeat Satan/sin.

Is it just me or do some here think that others who claim they are both entirely sinless and entirely perfect a little out of capacity?

?

How can anyone seriously entertain such absurdities?

Does speaking honestly carry any merit whatsoever?

?

 

[sonshine234]

8 If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth. 9 But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we are calling God a liar and showing that his word has no place in our hearts.


1 John 1:8-10

 

[Giver]

8 If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth. 9 But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we are calling God a liar and showing that his word has no place in our hearts.


1 John 1:8-10

Read this, you need to see John was saying: “If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar.” Can’t you see John was telling people everyone has sinned, and one would be a liar if he said they had not? John was not telling people who no longer sinned that they were liars by admitting they no longer sinned.

By not believing that John is telling us we are to live without sinning is calling John a liar. John tells us one who sins has never known God.

(1 John 1: 8-10) “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.”

You need to see John was saying if one says he or she says they have never sinned they are liars.

If one is forgiven of all unrighteousness are they not then sinless? Could they then be liars if they say they are sinless?

John later says:

(1 John 3:3-9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin: anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray’ to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy’ to lead a sinful life is to belong the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”

John told us those who did not know God sinned and asked forgiveness and were forgiven, but once a person comes to know God he or she will not sin.

Scripture goes on to say that if a person who does know God uses their free will to sin there is no repentance for that person.

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

Is it just me or do some here think that others who claim they are both entirely sinless and entirely perfect a little out of capacity?

?

How can anyone seriously entertain such absurdities?

Does speaking honestly carry any merit whatsoever?

Amen. Well said.

8 If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth. 9 But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we are calling God a liar and showing that his word has no place in our hearts.


1 John 1:8-10

This passage has been quoted so many times to Giver, but so far it appears that he's completely ignoring it.

 

[allykelly07]

Jesus called us to be perfect, and he made it possible to become perfect.

You seem to be hung up on the verse where Jesus said only God is good. That was an Old Testament teaching, and Jesus used it to let the person he was addressing know that he was God, and good.

No one in the Old Law could be good, because Jesus has not come to defeat Satan/sin.

Jesus defeated Satan, and gave us his Holy Spirit so we could also defeat Satan/sin.

Scripture says to aim for perfection. Did Christ ever call Himself perfect? Did Paul, or Peter, or any of the apostles ever call themselves perfect? No, they did not. Paul said that sin was living in Him, and everything that He did, sin was right there with Him. There was no point in Christ saying that if we follow Him, we must deny ourselves daily, if we didn't always have sin, and flesh to deal with. Satan will be put down in the end, but now, scripture says that your adversary the devil, goes about seeking anyone whom he may devour.

Hebrews 12:2
Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

He perfects our faith. It doesn't say that He perfects the old man, He perfects the new man, living in us, which is the Spirit. As we sow to the Spirit, and put to death daily, that old man, which is always there, we are being perfected in our faith, not in our flesh, but the Spirit. The flesh, is waging war against the Spirit, and we must sow to the Spirit, rather than the flesh. We can be made perfect, but only in the Spirit, and that in no way means that at times we do not stumble, because we all do, since the flesh is always there, right along the Spirit, and we must choose to put to death the sinful nature.

James 3:2
2 We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to keep his whole body in check.

 

[motherprayer]

Scripture says to aim for perfection. Did Christ ever call Himself perfect?

Good point! Jesus even rebuked the rich man for calling him "Good Master"
Matthew 19:16-17 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

 

[seeingeyes]

Why should we be so skeptical about receiving sinlessness in this life? We have already been brought back from the dead, so why would the idea of a completely healed from sin be so ridiculous? Whatever 'goodness' we do have is straight from our good God, do we have any reason to believe that He won't keep heaping it on us indefinitely?

Our hope is in Him, and He will do whatever pleases Him.

"With man this is impossible, but with God, all things are possible."

So chin up, brothers and sisters.

 

[motherprayer]

Why should we be so skeptical about receiving sinlessness in this life? We have already been brought back from the dead, so why would the idea of a completely healed from sin be so ridiculous? Whatever 'goodness' we do have is straight from our good God, do we have any reason to believe that He won't keep heaping it on us indefinitely?

Our hope is in Him, and He will do whatever pleases Him.

"With man this is impossible, but with God, all things are possible."

So chin up, brothers and sisters.

I do agree with this

I just think that preaching that one MUST be sinless to be saved is dangerous. One should come to Christ out of love for Him, rather than fear of hell. Once that occurs, then we have the process of gaining victory over sin.

 

[seeingeyes]

I do agree with this

I just think that preaching that one MUST be sinless to be saved is dangerous. One should come to Christ out of love for Him, rather than fear of hell. Once that occurs, then we have the process of gaining victory over sin.

That depends on what we believe 'saved' means. If we are saved from hell by being sinless, then, yes, that's quite a hurdle.

But if we are saved from sin then sinlessness is merely the next logical step.

 

[motherprayer]

That depends on what we believe 'saved' means. If we are saved from hell by being sinless, then, yes, that's quite a hurdle.

But if we are saved from sin then sinlessness is merely the next logical step.

Hm. Interesting. Ooh you just put a whole new spin on this. WATCH OUT BELOW!

 

[seeingeyes]

Hm. Interesting. Ooh you just put a whole new spin on this. WATCH OUT BELOW!

I, personally, have no problem with OSAS, and here's why:

The argument against it seems to be that someone could use this particular chunk of theology to cover their own spiritual butt and then go on sinning as usual. And I suppose, in a hypothetical world, that could be true.

But down here in the real world, I have never seen it used that way. (And I was raised Fundamentalist/Evangelical, so it's not like this has been a foreign doctrine.) Not once in all my life have I heard anyone say, "Well, I'm washed in the blood of Christ, so now I'm off to bang hookers".

We have all seen people behave that way, but such folks aren't usually the ones creating theological doctrines. They're too busy banging hookers.

How I have seen this doctrine used, without exception, is in the case of those who have sinned gravely and are convinced that they are cut off irrevocably from God. Their brothers and sisters use this doctrine to strengthen them and remind them of the grace of God.

OSAS is used to encourage and exhort the repentant, not to aid and abet the godless. As such, it bears good fruit, despite the slippery-slope arguments against it.

 

[motherprayer]

I, personally, have no problem with OSAS, and here's why:

The argument against it seems to be that someone could use this particular chunk of theology to cover their own spiritual butt and then go on sinning as usual. And I suppose, in a hypothetical world, that could be true.

But down here in the real world, I have never seen it used that way. (And I was raised Fundamentalist/Evangelical, so it's not like this has been a foreign doctrine.) Not once in all my life have I heard anyone say, "Well, I'm washed in the blood of Christ, so now I'm off to bang hookers".

We have all seen people behave that way, but such folks aren't usually the ones creating theological doctrines. They're too busy banging hookers.

How I have seen this doctrine used, without exception, is in the case of those who have sinned gravely and are convinced that they are cut off irrevocably from God. Their brothers and sisters use this doctrine to strengthen them and remind them of the grace of God.

OSAS is used to encourage and exhort the repentant, not to aid and abet the godless. As such, it bears good fruit, despite the slippery-slope arguments against it.

Amen! I never saw anything wrong with it either. For me it falls under the category of "Does it really matter?" I mean, if you think about it, one's salvation isn't like a set of car keys that can be accidentily misplaced (unless their left in a hooker's car lol sorry couldn't resist). It is a gift, that kinda can't HELP but be cherished, ya know?

I don't understand the whole "lose" one"s salvation doctrine, personally. IF, and that's a big IF, someone's salvation isn't permanant, then wouldn't it take an intentional "act" to undo it?

 

[seeingeyes]

I don't understand the whole "lose" one"s salvation doctrine, personally. IF, and that's a big IF, someone's salvation isn't permanant, then wouldn't it take an intentional "act" to undo it?

I'm not sure that the opposite of OSAS is 'the ability to lose one's salvation'. I don't think I've heard a doctrine that says that if you sin once, your salvation is null and void until you re-repent and get re-saved. (Which is why Christians don't get re-baptized every week. ) It's a bit more nuanced than that. I think it's 'the inability to demonstrate that you are saved if you are out banging hookers'. And it's a solid point.

The children of light should act like children of light.

So OSAS is used to strengthen the weak, and it's opposite (maybe OSGTW: Once Saved, Get To Work?) is used to spur on the strong. Both are a blessing when used with discernment.

Or we could throw 500,000 pages worth of strawmen at each other, instead. That's fun, too.

 

[def]

I, personally, have no problem with OSAS, and here's why:

The argument against it seems to be that someone could use this particular chunk of theology to cover their own spiritual butt and then go on sinning as usual. And I suppose, in a hypothetical world, that could be true.

But down here in the real world, I have never seen it used that way. (And I was raised Fundamentalist/Evangelical, so it's not like this has been a foreign doctrine.) Not once in all my life have I heard anyone say, "Well, I'm washed in the blood of Christ, so now I'm off to bang hookers".

We have all seen people behave that way, but such folks aren't usually the ones creating theological doctrines. They're too busy banging hookers.

How I have seen this doctrine used, without exception, is in the case of those who have sinned gravely and are convinced that they are cut off irrevocably from God. Their brothers and sisters use this doctrine to strengthen them and remind them of the grace of God.

OSAS is used to encourage and exhort the repentant, not to aid and abet the godless. As such, it bears good fruit, despite the slippery-slope arguments against it.

We can't justify a false doctrine even though the false doctrine could be useful at times. We are to handle the word of God accurately (1 Tim 2:15).

 

[Lion King]

Good point! Jesus even rebuked the rich man for calling him "Good Master"
Matthew 19:16-17 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

To be precise, Jesus Christ only rebuked the young rich man for calling Him good because Christ knew that the young man did not believe that Jesus was the LORD, but merely a man. Had the young man, in his heart, believed that Christ was who He said He was, that is the LORD, there would have been no problem whatsoever.

Jesus did not deny He was good (He certainly is because He is God)...

 

[seeingeyes]

We can't justify a false doctrine even though the false doctrine could be useful at times. We are to handle the word of God accurately (1 Tim 2:15).

Did you give the wrong verse reference, or are you telling me that my theology is so flawed that I'll have to rely on my fruitful uterus for salvation?

 

[motherprayer]

Or we could throw 500,000 pages worth of strawmen at each other, instead. That's fun, too.

Can you explain to me what a strawman is? Lol I've never been able to figure that one out

 

[motherprayer]

I'm not sure that the opposite of OSAS is 'the ability to lose one's salvation'. I don't think I've heard a doctrine that says that if you sin once, your salvation is null and void until you re-repent and get re-saved. (Which is why Christians don't get re-baptized every week. ) It's a bit more nuanced than that. I think it's 'the inability to demonstrate that you are saved if you are out banging hookers'. And it's a solid point.

I don't think it is either lol I just see all those "can someone lose their salvation" threads, and it makes me wonder why people use the term "lose." Like you said, things like like banging hookers aren't behaviors that someone who is saved really does. Seems we agree maybe?

 

[Giver]

Jesus told me to give a word, and I do as told. Backing up the word that I was told to give with the written Word of God.

Yet most people will do is voice his or her opinion telling me I am wrong. Most ignore the written word that tells them that their opinion is wrong.

Only a few seem to want to even see how being sinless is possible.

It is a shame people can’t see that God wants his Children to be obedient. I feel so sorry for those who have been convinced that he or she need not be concerned about being spotless.

I think Paul said it well in the following verse.

(Ephesians 2-2) “ As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.”