Once Saved Always Saved: True, False, or Misrepresented?

[Gregory Thompson]

You ignore sin touch it, what sort of illusion is you talking about?

Sin is any wrongdoing. If one sin he or she is of the devil, now how do you ignore that?

(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work”

i have a lot of work to do .. a certain generation before me didn't disciple so i needed to start from scratch . so if what i'm saying doesn't make sense it may have something to do with that disconnect .

 

[Giver]

If we DELIBERATELY, keep on sinning, no sacrifice for sin is left. But if we do not allow it to overtake us, and we hate what we do, and do not want to do it, that is different. Paul said that he did what he did not want to do, and it was sin living in him. Fighting the good fight is to continue to fight this flesh that is so prevalent in us. Sin, still lives in us, but that doesn't mean that we deliberately keep on sinning. I have to fight my flesh daily, "by the Spirit, put to death the misdeeds of the body." That is what we must do. Sin still lives in us, but because we are walking in the light, as He is in the light, we are being cleansed daily. I understand the scriptures that you have given, but it must go with all of the word of God, and not just some.

I am sorry for that comment I said about spitting things out..... I did not realize your age. But I would like to reason the word out with you, so that we might come into agreement on what just the word says.

When Jesus said no one is good only God it was before Jesus gave us his Holy Spirit.

Next you like so many others want to believe Paul were talking about his new self in God, when he said what he said in Romans seven. People don’t seem to understand or want to understand that Paul was just sharing how impossible it is for one to not sin with out the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. In Romans eight Paul explains how it is we can now defeat Satan/sin.

Romans 8:12-13) “So then, my brothers, there is no necessity for us to obey our unspiritual selves or to live unspiritual lives. If you do live in that way, you are doomed to die; but if by the Spirit you put an end to the misdeeds of the body you will live.”

(1 John 3:4-6) “Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.”

You want to believe Paul after receiving the Holy Spirit continued to sin; yet John tells us that if one sins he or she has never seen or knows God. Paul saw Jesus, and came to know him well.

 

[squint]

Satan keeps telling people that they will always sin, and that is a lie. Satan is a liar. Jesus gave us the Holy Spirit. Now people have more power than Satan. People no longer are under the power of Satan.

If one now sins he or she are of the devil.

(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work”

I don't mean to offend you or threaten your 'salvation' Giver but your mindset is not something that just popped up.

A lot of people get into the notion that if they sin they are not and can not be saved.

Then they buy into the notion that they don't sin.

They don't realize that in that they are not even truthful people.

It's a particularly vicious little pit, a landmine, that I've seen more than a few step on in their minds and never come out.

Everyone in the room knows they are not telling the truth except themselves.

s

 

[Giver]

I don't mean to offend you or threaten your 'salvation' Giver but your mindset is not something that just popped up.

A lot of people get into the notion that if they sin they are not and can not be saved.

Then they buy into the notion that they don't sin.

They don't realize that in that they are not even truthful people.

It's a particularly vicious little pit, a landmine, that I've seen more than a few step on in their minds and never come out.

Everyone in the room knows they are not telling the truth except themselves.

s

People might take your posts seriously if you would back up your opinion with some facts.

Thirty some years ago Jesus sat next to me, and had me open the bible to where it tells us a Christian is dead to sin. Jesus explained these verses to me, and has kept me sin free for almost forty years.

John tells us that if one has seen God and knows God he or she does not sin.

(1 John 3:4-6) “Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.”

 

[squint]

People might take your posts seriously if you would back up your opinion with some facts.

It's hard to take anyone who claims they don't sin seriously.

sorry. just a fact.

Thirty some years ago Jesus sat next to me, and had me open the bible to where it tells us a Christian is dead to sin. Jesus explained these verses to me, and has kept me sin free for almost forty years.

Uh, yeah. I heard the story and might expect that Jesus might have not GIVEN you all that accurate of information OR that you missed a piece or two here or there. That's the trouble with visions. Sometimes they have to be held accountable to Word Fact.

John tells us that if one has seen God and knows God he or she does not sin.

(1 John 3:4-6) “Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.”

Yeah, seen it before. I generally distrust delusions.

s

 

[Giver]

It's hard to take anyone who claims they don't sin seriously.

sorry. just a fact.



Uh, yeah. I heard the story and might expect that Jesus might have not GIVEN you all that accurate of information OR that you missed a piece or two here or there. That's the trouble with visions. Sometimes they have to be held accountable to Word Fact.



Yeah, seen it before. I generally distrust delusions.

s

The written Word of God is no delusion. So if you believe it is then we all know you must be the one that is having delusions.

Here is what John says about one who sins.

(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work”


Jesus said he would make a home in one who lives his Word. How can Satan/sin be in the same home as God?

(John 14:23) “Jesus replied: Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”

 

[squint]

The written Word of God is no delusion. So if you believe it is then we all know you must be the one that is having delusions.

I prefer 'truthful' conversations amongst believers.

and...I consider Paul a 'truthful' measure of these things (in addition to the other Apostles, of course.)

Here is what John says about one who sins.

(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work”

Jesus said he would make a home in one who lives his Word. How can Satan/sin be in the same home as God?

John also said that if we say we have NO SIN the Truth is not in us (1 John 1:8.) And that is what you say.

It is not truthful. Sorry.

You have merely been caught up in a scriptural loop that can not compute, is not truthful and was reinforced by what you think you heard from Jesus.

I might suggest to you that there is more going on with this subject than what you might have heard from Jesus and The written Word.

You might want to explore this subject deeper in order to have 'some' credibility in the arena rather than to have nearly everyone know you are not telling the truth.

FOR EXAMPLE (if you even care)

Paul advised us he was the chief of sinners post salvation

Paul advised us he had evil present with him post salvation.

Paul even told us that he had a devil in his flesh.

If that was the 'factual' condition of an Apostle, what makes you think you are exempt from any of those matters being the same for YOU?

And if you DO see them as factual to you, please follow the factual line of Spiritual Reasoning.

Do you think it is conceivable that YOU as a child of God are sinless and the other party NOT?

It's not as simple as you try to see it my friend. But to see it this way also requires us to 'be truthful.'

Those who are not can not enter this arena of understanding and remain purposefully locked out BY JESUS.

s

 

[Giver]

I prefer 'truthful' conversations amongst believers.

and...I consider Paul a 'truthful' measure of these things (in addition to the other Apostles, of course.)



John also said that if we say we have NO SIN the Truth is not in us (1 John 1:8.) And that is what you say.

It is not truthful. Sorry.

You have merely been caught up in a scriptural loop that can not compute, is not truthful and was reinforced by what you think you heard from Jesus.

I might suggest to you that there is more going on with this subject than what you might have heard from Jesus and The written Word.

You might want to explore this subject deeper in order to have 'some' credibility in the arena rather than to have nearly everyone know you are not telling the truth.

FOR EXAMPLE (if you even care)

Paul advised us he was the chief of sinners post salvation

Paul advised us he had evil present with him post salvation.

Paul even told us that he had a devil in his flesh.

If that was the 'factual' condition of an Apostle, what makes you think you are exempt from any of those matters being the same for YOU?

And if you DO see them as factual to you, please follow the factual line of Spiritual Reasoning.

Do you think it is conceivable that YOU as a child of God are sinless and the other party NOT?

It's not as simple as you try to see it my friend. But to see it this way also requires us to 'be truthful.'

Those who are not can not enter this arena of understanding and remain purposefully locked out BY JESUS.

s

Read this, you need to see John was saying: “If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar.” Can’t you see John was telling people everyone has sinned, and one would be a liar if he said they had not? John was not telling people who no longer sinned that they were liars by admitting they no longer sinned.

By not believing that John is telling us we are to live without sinning is calling John a liar. John tells us one who sins has never known God.

(1 John 1: 8-10) “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.”

You need to see John was saying if one says he or she says they have never sinned they are liars.

If one is forgiven of all unrighteousness are they not then sinless? Could they then be liars if they say they are sinless?

John later says:

(1 John 3:3-9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin: anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray’ to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy’ to lead a sinful life is to belong the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”

John told us those who did not know God sinned and asked forgiveness and were forgiven, but once a person comes to know God he or she will not sin.

Scripture goes on to say that if a person who does know God uses their free will to sin there is no repentance for that person.

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”

 

[squint]

Read this, you need to see John was saying: “If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar.” Can’t you see John was telling people everyone has sinned, and one would be a liar if he said they had not? John was not telling people who no longer sinned that they were liars by admitting they no longer sinned.

John by no means told us he never sinned post salvation. There is much more matter to see in his statement.

When you stop seeing yourself alone in the flesh it will clear up immediately.

But believers can NOT get this picture until GOD HIMSELF shows them and INSTILLS honesty within them on this subject matter.

By not believing that John is telling us we are to live without sinning is calling John a liar. John tells us one who sins has never known God.

(1 John 1: 8-10) “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.”

You need to see John was saying if one says he or she says they have never sinned they are liars.

If one is forgiven of all unrighteousness are they not then sinless? Could they then be liars if they say they are sinless?

John later says:

(1 John 3:3-9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin: anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray’ to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy’ to lead a sinful life is to belong the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”

John told us those who did not know God sinned and asked forgiveness and were forgiven, but once a person comes to know God he or she will not sin.

Scripture goes on to say that if a person who does know God uses their free will to sin there is no repentance for that person.

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”

I would note that you entirely bypassed every statement I cited about Paul's representations to us and left those facts from my prior post entirely UNattended.

Why did you do that?

??? For a fact you have been dodging these facts for quite awhile.

IT may be time for you to 'get real?'

s

 

[motherprayer]

My pastor told a story one day in church that the idea of Christians never sinning reminds me of. He said a man walked into a church one day, heart set on learning about Christ and fellowshipping with the people there. But shortly after he arrived, he became disheartened and angry. Why? Because, as he looked around him at the parishioners, who all turned as he walked in and regarded him with wary eyes, and as he listened to the message, he realized that he couldn't ever hope to live up to this standard that "God" had set before him.
He stayed through the service, however, praying that God would give him strength to lead a holy life. At the end of service, a fellowship meal was laid out, and he set out to talk to some of the parishioners. They all boasted of how good they were, and how well they followed God. He felt even more discouraged, but kept pressing on. After exchanging phone numbers with a few people, he went home. "Lord," he prayed. "I'm just not good enough for You."
That night, he thought to call one of the parishioners, and talk to him about how he managed to become so holy. When the parishioner answered the phone, the man was surprised to hear him say hi and then proceed to scream at his wife to shut up and let him have his drink. "Wow, what is going on?" He thought? He asked his question. "How are you able to be so holy?"
The answer shocked him. "Haha holiness is a joke! I dress up on Sundays, so I don't have to hear my wife's mouth. Everyone you saw at church today is a hot mess. We just look nice so that the preacher thinks we are doing good. Keeps the wives off our backs, and God knows the rest of the week we can't live up to that standard."
Huh. The man didn't know quite how to respond. "But, everyone looked at me like there was something wrong with me today!"
Again, the response shocked him. "That is because you aren't like us. Don't worry, a few weeks, and some new clothes, and you'll fit right in!"
But the man wasn't trying to fit in. He was trying to get closer to God, and he said as much. "The only person close to God in that church is the preacher. He tells us all the time that we have to be holy and blameless, but the way I see it, as long as I don't give the appearance of doing the wrong thing, then I have no worries."

The problem that lies in the "sinless" lifestyle that some preachers try to teach, is that they don't teach how to get there. And so what they teach their flock is how to look good, but never focus on the inner man.

 

[Giver]

John by no means told us he never sinned post salvation. There is much more matter to see in his statement.

When you stop seeing yourself alone in the flesh it will clear up immediately.

But believers can NOT get this picture until GOD HIMSELF shows them and INSTILLS honesty within them on this subject matter.

I would note that you entirely bypassed every statement I cited about Paul's representations to us and left those facts from my prior post entirely UNattended.

Why did you do that?

??? For a fact you have been dodging these facts for quite awhile.

IT may be time for you to 'get real?'

s

You totally ignored all the scripture that tells us that your understanding of what Paul said is nonsense.

Paul said: Romans 8:12-13) “So then, my brothers, there is no necessity for us to obey our unspiritual selves or to live unspiritual lives. If you do live in that way, you are doomed to die; but if by the Spirit you put an end to the misdeeds of the body you will live.”

(Ephesians 2-2) “ As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.”

(Galatians 5:16)“Let me put it like this if you are guided by the Spirit you will be in no danger of yielding to self-indulgence....”.

(Romans 6: 1-2) “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

(Romans 6:11) “In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus”

Now lets look at more of what John said this at least can give you more scripture to ignore.

(1 John 3:4-6) “Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.”

(1 John 3:9) “No one, who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

 

[squint]

Giver: You totally ignored all the scripture that tells us that your understanding of what Paul said is nonsense.

Oh?

Let's put your claims next to ONLY PAUL's statements.

See which person is telling the truth?

Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Givers claim?_______________

1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Givers claim?___________


I never expect believers to, you know, match up on these facts.

s

 

[Giver]

Oh?

Let's put your claims next to ONLY PAUL's statements.

See which person is telling the truth?

Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Givers claim?_______________

1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Givers claim?___________


I never expect believers to, you know, match up on these facts.

s

Again you ignored all the scripture that tells us you are wrong.

From my expierance only Calvinists are so ill informed as to believe Paul was saying he was still at that time the chief of sinners. Also to believe that Paul was describing himself, after receiving the Holy Spirit, as having trouble with sin, is in my opinion just plain ignorant. Especially when Paul in the next verse explains just how it is one can defeat Satan/sin.

(8:12-13) “So then, my brothers, there is no necessity for us to obey our unspiritual selves or to live unspiritual lives. If you do live in that way, you are doomed to die; but if by the Spirit you put an end to the misdeeds of the body you will live.”

 

[squint]

Again you ignored all the scripture that tells us you are wrong.

Cited Paul's words about himself.

Looked at your claims for yourself.
Obviously the two are different.

One of them is telling the truth.

s

 

[motherprayer]

Again you ignored all the scripture that tells us you are wrong.

From my expierance only Calvinists are so ill informed as to believe Paul was saying he was still at that time the chief of sinners. Also to believe that Paul was describing himself, after receiving the Holy Spirit, as having trouble with sin, is in my opinion just plain ignorant. Especially when Paul in the next verse explains just how it is one can defeat Satan/sin.

(8:12-13) “So then, my brothers, there is no necessity for us to obey our unspiritual selves or to live unspiritual lives. If you do live in that way, you are doomed to die; but if by the Spirit you put an end to the misdeeds of the body you will live.”

I'm not a Calvinist. I always took the word "am" for what it is?

 

[Giver]

I'm not a Calvinist. I always took the word "am" for what it is?

Read that verse with a little understanding. Paul was just saying that he the Chief of sinners was also forgiven.

Think a bit, do you believe the Chief of sinners would say the following?

(1 Corinthians 5:11) “What I wrote was that you should not associate with a brother Christian who is leading an immoral life, or is a usurer, or idolatrous, or a slander, or a drunkard, or is dishonest; you should not even eat a meal with people like that.”

(1 Corinthians 6:9-19) “You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.”

(Ephesians 2-2) “ As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.”

(Galatians 5:16)“Let me put it like this if you are guided by the Spirit you will be in no danger of yielding to self-indulgence....”.

(Romans 6: 1-2) “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

 

[motherprayer]

The literal definition of sin is to fall short. And we all do, saved or not

 

[squint]

The literal definition of sin is to fall short. And we all do, saved or not

except Giver (cough cough)

 

[Giver]

The literal definition of sin is to fall short. And we all do, saved or not

I quoted James and John telling us what sin is, and I will quote John and Paul telling us that a Christian does not sin.

All you can do is give your opinion. Now why should anyone believe you?

(1 John 3:4-6) “Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.”

(1 John 3:9) “No one, who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

(Galatians 5:16)“Let me put it like this if you are guided by the Spirit you will be in no danger of yielding to self-indulgence....”.

(Romans 6: 1-2) “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

 

[allykelly07]

I quoted James and John telling us what sin is, and I will quote John and Paul telling us that a Christian does not sin.

All you can do is give your opinion. Now why should anyone believe you?

(1 John 3:4-6) “Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.”

(1 John 3:9) “No one, who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

(Galatians 5:16)“Let me put it like this if you are guided by the Spirit you will be in no danger of yielding to self-indulgence....”.

(Romans 6: 1-2) “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

So, your perfect, and never fall short I guess. Paul said there is nothing good in him, that is in his flesh. We still have a flesh to deal with, and to die to daily. Our struggle daily, is against sin. We do what we do not want to do, and it is sin living in us. We don't go on sinning, as in, we don't continue to sin purposefully. That is the only way all of the scriptures work together. You can't take all of those verses, without all of the other verses as well. We are not good, but only God is good, His Spirit dwelling in and through us, that doesn't mean that we are good, that means He is good through us.