Once Saved Always Saved: True, False, or Misrepresented?

[jasonsloss]

(John 14:23) “Jesus replied: Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”

(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work”

(1 John 3:4-6) “Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.”

(1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”

Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

do you sin???

 

[crimsonleaf]

Giving one’s life to Jesus means to me, that one becomes a servant of God’s. A servant does what his or her master tells them to do.

To me being a servant of God means that his will in my life will be done, and not my will.

Jesus told me I would lose everything that was owned by me, and I did. Then for the rest of my life Jesus told me what to do. Jesus told me where to live, and how I was to live, and that included what possessions to have and use.

My possessions were never more then needed to do my work, and maintain my family.

Didn't Jesus tell us to leave our families to follow Him?

 

[squint]

do you sin???

Believers who arrive at conclusions they are entirely sinless may like the drama such statements bring.

Any believer can take Paul's factually stated conclusion, that he was the chief of sinners post salvation and set that next to any sinless claimant and see the sinless ones have honesty issues by any simple comparison OR they are vastly better than an Apostle.

The latter is, uh, unlikely.

s

 

[Giver]

Didn't Jesus tell us to leave our families to follow Him?

When Jesus asked me to give him my life, I was a financially successful Life Insurance agent.

I was married with three small children the oldest was not yet four years old.

The Holy Spirit let me know I would lose everything I owned if I gave my life to Jesus.

A few months later found me along with my family living in a tent.

I not only lost everything I owned. Also was no longer, no matter how much effort given, was able to make a sale in insurance.

Jesus told me to move to another state twelve hundred miles away.

We did this in my wife’s old car that she had in college. We also had only two hundred and forty dollars and that is all the money we had. No credit cards or any help from anyone.

 

[jasonsloss]

Believers who arrive at conclusions they are entirely sinless may like the drama such statements bring.

Any believer can take Paul's factually stated conclusion, that he was the chief of sinners post salvation and set that next to any sinless claimant and see the sinless ones have honesty issues by any simple comparison OR they are vastly better than an Apostle.

The latter is, uh, unlikely.

s

exactly why I asked this question... I have asked the same question to ones who have a hard time with this topic in the bible studies that God allows me to lead...

 

[Jig]

I came across this question while surfing the web on the topic of OSAS and it intrigues me :

"If a Christian is in bed with a prostitute committing adultery, and during the very act of intercourse a stray bullet from the gun of a drive-by shooter strikes him in the head and kills him instantly, will he go to heaven or hell?"

I was wondering what you guys thought .

Nicodemus asked a rather captious question to Jesus.

"How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?" John 3:4

While Nicodemus was talking about physical birth here, one can just as easily ask a similar question to those who believe spiritually born Christians can lose their salvation. If someone undergoes spiritual birth (gain salvation), can he enter a second time into the womb of the world (lose salvation) to be birthed anew (regain salvation)?

Nicodemus was correct on one thing. A birth is a singular event that can never reoccur or be taken back.

Once born always born.

 

[Rick Otto]

Nicodemus asked a rather captious question to Jesus.

"How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?" John 3:4

While Nicodemus was talking about physical birth here, one can just as easily ask a similar question to those who believe spiritually born Christians can lose their salvation. If someone undergoes spiritual birth (gain salvation), can he enter a second time into the womb of the world (lose salvation) to be birthed anew (regain salvation)?

Nicodemus was correct on one thing. A birth is a singular event that can never reoccur or be taken back.

Once born always born.

That's right. And like the gift of physical life, the gift of eternal life isn't presented to you to make a free will decision about. The gospel only makes sense to those who already have been given the faith to believe it.

 

[crimsonleaf]

When Jesus asked me to give him my life, I was a financially successful Life Insurance agent.

I was married with three small children the oldest was not yet four years old.

The Holy Spirit let me know I would lose everything I owned if I gave my life to Jesus.

A few months later found me along with my family living in a tent.

I not only lost everything I owned. Also was no longer, no matter how much effort given, was able to make a sale in insurance.

Jesus told me to move to another state twelve hundred miles away.

We did this in my wife’s old car that she had in college. We also had only two hundred and forty dollars and that is all the money we had. No credit cards or any help from anyone.

Thank you for the information, but you haven't answered my question.

 

[Giver]

Nicodemus asked a rather captious question to Jesus.

"How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?" John 3:4

While Nicodemus was talking about physical birth here, one can just as easily ask a similar question to those who believe spiritually born Christians can lose their salvation. If someone undergoes spiritual birth (gain salvation), can he enter a second time into the womb of the world (lose salvation) to be birthed anew (regain salvation)?

Nicodemus was correct on one thing. A birth is a singular event that can never reoccur or be taken back.

Once born always born.

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

 

[jasonsloss]

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

why are you quoting a passage scripture that was written for unsaved Jews as a warning????

 

[Giver]

why are you quoting a passage scripture that was written for unsaved Jews as a warning????

Calvin and Luther needed to find some lie to make Hebrews not relevant.

Read Hebrews and see that it says insults the Spirit of Grace.

One can’t insult the Spirit of Grace if one has never received the Spirit of Grace.

Hebrews was written to and for Christians.

 

[motherprayer]

One can’t insult the Spirit of Grace if one has never received the Spirit of Grace.

Why not?

(P.S. I'm not a Calvinist or a Lutheran, I just wanna know why not)

 

[bbbbbbb]

You don’t understand do you? Everything I have is not owned by me. The people with whom I live own everything I have. Also everything they have is mine.

I gave my possessions away many years ago.

You don’t want to understand do you?

I have explained that Jesus had me give up all my possessions. Yet you can’t accept that one will give everything to live the Word of God.

I think I do understand. Your situation is not unlike that of a person who enters a religious order in the Roman Catholic Church. When they do, they make a vow of poverty and give all of their possessions to the Church. As a result, they can honestly say that they have given up everything to God. In return, the Church takes care of their physical needs. The result is that many do live in poverty, but there are some who, for a variety of reasons, live in comfort and some who live in luxury (at least by our standards). Jesus has them give up all their possessions to serve Him. The possessions do not disappear into thin air, however, but their use is no longer dictated by their original owner, but by their new owner.

You depend upon the kindness of friends for your sustenance. Catholic religious people depend upon the kindness of the Church for their sustenance. In both cases, it can be said that all depend upon Jesus. Gods does not directly supply their needs as He did with the manna in the wilderness. Rather, He works through human agents to do so.

Am I correct in thinking this?

 

[Giver]

Why not?

(P.S. I'm not a Calvinist or a Lutheran, I just wanna know why not)

How do you insult the Holy Spirit if you don’t have him? Does not one need to believe in the Holy Spirit or at least know of the Holy Spirit to insult him?

Also only God can give one the knowledge of the truth. Hebrews was talking to those who had been given the knowledge of truth.

Paul told us only God could teach one to know God, and to know God is being given the knowledge of the truth.


(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. -----------“

(1 Corinthians 2:10-16) “These are the very things that God has revealed to us through the Spirit, for the Spirit reaches the depts. Of everything, even the depths of God. After all, the depths of a man can only be known by his own spirit, not by any other man, and in the same way the depths of God can only be known by the Spirit of God. Now instead of the spirit of the world, we have received the Spirit that comes from God, to teach us to understand the gifts that he has given us. Therefore we teach, not in the way in which philosophy is taught, but in the way that the Spirit teaches us: we teach spiritual things spiritually. A spiritual man, on the other hand, is able to judge the value of everything and his own value in not to be judged by other men. As scripture says;’ who can know the mind of the Lord, so who can teach him?’ But we are those who have the mind of Christ.”

(1 John 2:27) “But you have not lost the anointing that he gave you, and you do not need anyone to teach you, the anointing he gave teaches you everything; you are anointed with truth, not a lie, and as it has taught you, so you must stay in him.”

 

[PinkSapphire007]

Giver has "given up" everything for the Lord, except his computer apparently!

 

[Giver]

I think I do understand. Your situation is not unlike that of a person who enters a religious order in the Roman Catholic Church. When they do, they make a vow of poverty and give all of their possessions to the Church. As a result, they can honestly say that they have given up everything to God. In return, the Church takes care of their physical needs. The result is that many do live in poverty, but there are some who, for a variety of reasons, live in comfort and some who live in luxury (at least by our standards). Jesus has them give up all their possessions to serve Him. The possessions do not disappear into thin air, however, but their use is no longer dictated by their original owner, but by their new owner.

You depend upon the kindness of friends for your sustenance. Catholic religious people depend upon the kindness of the Church for their sustenance. In both cases, it can be said that all depend upon Jesus. Gods does not directly supply their needs as He did with the manna in the wilderness. Rather, He works through human agents to do so.

Am I correct in thinking this?

I will give you a yes and no answer to your question.

Yes on the surface it looks as if the religious orders are doing what I shared.

Also because I don’t know the individuals in the religious orders I can’t judge where he or she living in the religious orders is with God.

What I share is that one needs to give his or her life to God and then allow God to teach and guide them how and where to live that life.

Personally Jesus never allowed people to provide for me. I had to work hard to earn a living for my family. I worked until age seventy-four, when because my back gave out I had to stop working.

I was very close to a group of priests that were part of a religious order. I can tell you that in no way was I ever allowed to have such a grand stile of living.
Those priests have every thing a person could want. All I could see they gave up was not getting married.

They had their meals cooked for them, table set, and dishes washed. I know this because I ate with them.

They always had a car to drive, and people would seem to always pay for their entertainment.

I had a country club membership and would take them to the club to play golf. They never paid. I was a member of the YMCA and played handball with them, and their membership was free to them, not to me.

Also not once did any of those priests ever say that Jesus teaches him anything. Nor did they ever say that Jesus told them to do any thing.

Now there were one or two that mentioned that Jesus kept them company, but it seemed at the time they were making an excuse for not being social.

What I am saying is being part of a religious order does not necessarily mean the person is a spiritual person.

 

[jasonsloss]

Calvin and Luther needed to find some lie to make Hebrews not relevant.

Read Hebrews and see that it says insults the Spirit of Grace.

One can’t insult the Spirit of Grace if one has never received the Spirit of Grace.

Hebrews was written to and for Christians.

It was written to and for believing and unbelieving Jews... read the OT and the gospels and Romans the Jews were God's chosen people they always were surrounded by the Spirit of Grace so by them coming to the knowledge of truth but never applying it to their lives but remaining under the law they were insulting this grace...

 

[Giver]

It was written to and for believing and unbelieving Jews... read the OT and the gospels and Romans the Jews were God's chosen people they always were surrounded by the Spirit of Grace so by them coming to the knowledge of truth but never applying it to their lives but remaining under the law they were insulting this grace...

People can make the written Word say what he or she wants it to say.

The Holy Spirit decided what Word was to be placed in the book containing the written Word of God.

The Holy Spirit was not giving us a history book. What is in the written Word of God is addressed to us.

Calvin and most of the rest of the so-called Reformers had to find a way to discount Hebrews. Hebrews makes a lie out of the reformers theology.

Much of scripture makes a lie out of the reformers theology, but nothing as direct as Hebrews.

First John does a good job but for some reason people seem to be able to ignore what John said. They get around John by misusing his Words: (1 John 1: 8-10) “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.”

Reformers had to ignore that John said “Will forgive us our sins, and purify us from all unrighteousness” Because if one is purified of all sin the can one be deceived if he or she says they are without sin?
Reformers need to ignore the John said: “If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.”

 

[jasonsloss]

People can make the written Word say what he or she wants it to say.

The Holy Spirit decided what Word was to be placed in the book containing the written Word of God.

The Holy Spirit was not giving us a history book. What is in the written Word of God is addressed to us.

Calvin and most of the rest of the so-called Reformers had to find a way to discount Hebrews. Hebrews makes a lie out of the reformers theology.

Much of scripture makes a lie out of the reformers theology, but nothing as direct as Hebrews.

First John does a good job but for some reason people seem to be able to ignore what John said. They get around John by misusing his Words: (1 John 1: 8-10) “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.”

Reformers had to ignore that John said “Will forgive us our sins, and purify us from all unrighteousness” Because if one is purified of all sin the can one be deceived if he or she says they are without sin?
Reformers need to ignore the John said: “If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.”

first do you sin???
second there is such a thing as reading into scripture...
third I never have said that there is not application out of Hebrews for the believer today, but what I have pointed out is knowing what can be applied by rightly dividing the Word of Truth....

like I know that just because the book of Hebrews was written to both believing and unbelieving Jews does not mean I should ignore it, but as I study it I look at how scripture will apply to my life or others that God allows me to teach...

 

[Giver]

first do you sin???
second there is such a thing as reading into scripture...
third I never have said that there is not application out of Hebrews for the believer today, but what I have pointed out is knowing what can be applied by rightly dividing the Word of Truth....

like I know that just because the book of Hebrews was written to both believing and unbelieving Jews does not mean I should ignore it, but as I study it I look at how scripture will apply to my life or others that God allows me to teach...

No I do not sin.

My witness is that I don’t read scripture and accept my or any other person’s understanding of what it say or means.

My witness is that Jesus/Holy Spirit has taught me what the written Word of God says and means.