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It's actually quite sad that anyone who claims to be a student of Scripture would even think that there are "unsaved Christians".
You obviously missed my point. You are trying to nail a "name" to your kingdoms by who is being referred to.Sorry buddy... referring to GENTILES being included in the "Kingdom of God" is most definitely a prophecy of the
New Testament Kingdom (whether the writer understood the fulfillment or not).
Of course. But so what! It doesn't "name" a kingdom.BECAUSE that prophecy was NEVER fulfilled during the OT...
it was ONLY fulfilled in the NT.
Only very ignorant people claim that the "church age" was prophesied in the OT.The QUESTION was whether the church age (Jews and Gentiles)
was prophesied in the OT... I gave you MANY examples of where
it was prophesied in the OT.
You just keep missing all my points. I can't make it any more simple than I have already.NOW you want to "move the goalposts" (in order to save face)
and PRETEND the question was whether the writer of the prophecy
UNDERSTOOD the fulfillment.
I think readers of this thread know where all the straw is.That is YOUR STRAWMAN... nothing more.
And your childish "warnings" are just laughable.I have warned you several times to NOT ASSUME Biblical Truth
is LIMITED to what YOU understand.
Grow up.This is just (another) example
of how your limited understanding does NOT define Biblical Truth.
Jim
See there? You just PROVED your failure to understand what "Christian" means.Christians are people following Christ.
No, many such people only think they are Christians. The crowd in Matt 7:21-23 thought they would get into the kingdom on the basis of their works FOR Jesus, and they called Him Lord. But so what? What Jesus was speaking about involves the FUTURE day of judgment for unbelievers, at the Great White Throne. There won't be even 1 unbended knee at that judgment, and everyone will call Him Lord, because it will be very obvious to everyone there that He IS.People calling Jesus their "Lord".
Your views are simply ignorant of Scripture. There will be many unsaved people who think they ARE Christians because of their lifestyle of morality. They don't understand the gospel message any more than the Pharisees of Jesus' day.There are MANY unsaved Christians in the church but FEW real saints.
The Scriptures prove what I believe and REFUTE what you believe.It is just too bad you refuse to accept this Biblical Truth... no matter
how many SCRIPTURES prove it.
Hilarious. I haven't found ANY verses that contradict my views. But I have found many verses that do contradict your views.When you accept the verses you LIKE but you REJECT or
intentionally IGNORE the verses you don't like (that contradict)
Please don't transfer your own errors on to me.Then you are not following the Gospel of the Bible, instead, you are
designing your own personal gospel. Good luck with that.
If, however, we take that verse by James in a super-literal way, it would mean not that works count but that they are ALL that matters.
I don't know a single Christian--and certainly not any denomination--who agrees with that proposition.
Since that is NOT what James means (and his epistle takes pains to explain why such a POV is wrong)...,
What, then, can this mean?
The bible speaks of salvation in three tenses: past, present, and future. We work out our salvation. We cannot predict whether or not we'll persevere, which is why we're admonished to persevere. In any case, God, alone, knows with absolute 100% certainty whose names are written in the Book of Life and whose are not.Im confused about salvation. What is the truth about salvation. What do we do? Ive researched lately and many are coming out saying OSAS is an end times heresy that will lead many to fall away. That only if u endure to the end u r saved. So what is true salvation how can someone know they are going to have it? theres always that what if im weak what if i dont endure what if im doing a certain sin,etc etc. im just really confused about this and really worried about where i stand with God
The bible speaks of salvation in three tenses: past, present, and future. We work out our salvation. We cannot predict whether or not we'll persevere, which is why we're admonished to persevere. In any case, God, alone, knows with absolute 100% certainty whose names are written in the Book of Life and whose are not.
This is Jesus paying the price for the sins of the entire world so as to offer mankind the free gift of salvation (if they so choose to accept it);
This is Jesus paying the price for the sins of the entire world
Well, I assume you already know the alternative arguments, that God's election isn't strict determinism but rather, by His sovereign will, incorporates man's choices into the equation, with more expected of those given more. He deems this right and good, according to His wisdom. Obviously, from Eden on man must decide, which is why believers are admonished, warned, exhorted, and encouraged even as grace is required to aid him in this endeavor to choose good over evil, life over death, to strive, to be vigilant, to persevere, to work out our salvation, to make our calling and election sure, to remain in Christ, to live by the Spirit and not the flesh, to refrain from sin, to pray that God's will be done on earth, to wash one's robes, to be perfect, to be holy, to obey the commandments, to feed the hungry and clothe the naked, to love, with not so great consequences for those who fail to do so. Not much need for such instruction if one's salvation is guaranteed.While I do not want to disagree with anything you said above,
I would like to expand the question a little with regard to the
perseverance of the saints.
While there are several ways to ask this question, let me just ask,
is it possible for anyone that God elected to eternal life to NOT
receive what God intended? Can God FAIL in His purpose?
Jim
.
Well, I assume you already know the alternative arguments, that God's election isn't strict determinism but rather, by His sovereign will, incorporates man's choices into the equation, with more expected of those given more.
Obviously, from Eden on man must decide,
which is why believers are admonished, warned, exhorted, and encouraged even as grace is required to aid him in this endeavor to choose good over evil, life over death, to strive, to be vigilant, to persevere, to work out our salvation, to make our calling and election sure, to remain in Christ, to live by the Spirit and not the flesh, to refrain from sin, to pray that God's will be done on earth, to wash one's robes, to be perfect, to be holy, to obey the commandments, to feed the hungry and clothe the naked, to love, with not so great consequences for those who fail to do so. Not much need for such instruction if one's salvation is guaranteed.
Not much need for such instruction if one's salvation is guaranteed.
The elect are....the elect, so of course they will be saved. We just cannot know with absolute, perfect certainty who they are. And Scripture tells us that there will be surprises.Of course I am aware of the gospel of synergism, but I wanted
to get more specific by questioning whether God's "election" of
certain people to become "His Sheep" can ever result in SOME
of those people never being regenerated?
I do not find Biblical support for ANYONE God has "elected"
to become "His sheep" to NEVER be regenerated.... is there
Scripture for such a doctrine?
To be clear, I understand, and hope you understand, that there
is a difference between groups and individuals. For example,
I can find verses that say Israel (as a nation) will be saved...
and other verses that some (individual Jews) are NOT saved.
Likewise, I find some verses saying "the church" will be saved
(meaning all the "wheat/sheep" in the church) but other verses
saying all of the "tares/goats" in the church are destined to hell.
So... is there Biblical support for any INDIVIDUAL that God "elects"
to become "His Sheep"... to NEVER be regenerated?
What chapter/verse?
I don't know WHY you say this is "obvious".
I think it's "obvious" to all that Adam and Eve had true "free will"
but there is much controversy about the will of man after the fall.
I see verses saying all (natural) men are spiritually DEAD.
I see verses saying NO (natural) MAN will seek after God.
I see verses saying NO (natural) MAN can come to Christ
unless the Father first "draws" them... and then, ALL MEN
the Father gives "shall come", and Christ loses NONE of them.
Which is the essence of this question...
Does Christ lose NONE of "His sheep"? Or does He lose SOME?
I assume NONE means NONE... but does it really mean SOME?
Is it BIBLICAL that SOME of "His sheep" are never regenerated?
What chapter/verse?
But, your PREMISE (above) is ONLY on those already regenerated.
You begin your explanation with "which is why BELIEVERS...."
I am aware of the verses encouraging believers to live in the
Spirit - and how God corrects those who do not (ask Jonah).
And I am aware that some believers produce "fruit" thirty-fold
and others sixty-fold and some one hundred-fold.
But here was my original question:
While there are several ways to ask this question, let me just ask,
is it possible for anyone that God elected to eternal life to NOT
receive what God intended? Can God FAIL in His purpose?
So, it may be my fault for not wording the question carefully.
I did not mean to discuss whether once saved, always saved.
I meant can anyone elected to be "His Sheep" not be regenerated?
I wonder if there is any Biblical support teaching that someone
God has elected before the foundation of the world to become
one of "His Sheep"... would NEVER be regenerated?
Will Christ lose NONE of "His sheep"... or SOME of them?
Jim
YesFirst, I apologize for not being more careful in my question
on the last post.
Please let me just follow-up from a different perspective.
One which I suspect will be more favorable to your theology.
Let's assume the synergistic perspective is correct and God
only "elects" people to become "His Sheep" based on His
foreknowledge that they would WANT to become saved.
Can we then say that all God "elected" to become "His Sheep"
will be regenerated? And He will lose NONE of "His Sheep"?
Jim
(For Provisional Atonement verses, see: John 1:29, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6, 2 Corinthians 5:19, Romans 5:6-8.).
This is Jesus paying the price for the sins of the entire world so as to offer mankind the free gift of salvation (if they so choose to accept it);
This is Jesus paying the price for the sins of the entire world so as to offer mankind the free gift of salvation (if they so choose to accept it);
(For Provisional Atonement verses, see: John 1:29, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6, 2 Corinthians 5:19, Romans 5:6-8.).
This is Jesus paying the price for the sins of the entire world so as to offer mankind the free gift of salvation (if they so choose to accept it);
This is Jesus paying the price for the sins of the entire world so as to offer mankind the free gift of salvation (if they so choose to accept it);
Then WHY have you repeatedlhy claimed that Jesus "named" kingdoms?There was no issue about those prophecies NAMING a "church age".... that is just your confusion talking.
Jim
This is just so typical of false doctrines... just ignore the CONTEXT.
Supposedly, Romans 5:6-8 teaches "provisional atonement" for all
the world. But a cursory examination of the passage shows that the
CONTEXT is LIMITED to only the elect. It takes less than 2 minutes
to show this "proof text" teaches the OPPOSITE of what is supposed.
I do not have time to address all your misinterpretations in Scripture, but this one is easy.
As does 2 Cor 5:14,15, Heb 2:9, and 1 Tim 2:3-6.You basically are saying that Romans 5:6-8 is dealing with only the Calvinistic limited saved elect. However, the context of Romans 5:6-8 shows that the gift came upon ALL MEN.
Great suggestion!! Those who do study the word "elect" in Scripture will discover that there are no verses that teach that anyone is saved through election, and that election isn't even about salvation. It's about service, as ALL the examples of those identified as "elect" show quite easily.Side Note:
Oh, and by the way. Israel was God's elected or chosen nation. That does not mean all of Israel was saved throughout time. So you are reading your own Calvinistic biases into the word “elect” instead of deriving the meaning of that word based on what the Bible says. I mean, did you even do a study on the word “elect” before without any biased previous conceived ideas before?
You can say that about the use of the term, the Elect, but not of the verses that describe the Elect or Eternal Security without using the terminology we today use.Great suggestion!! Those who do study the word "elect" in Scripture will discover that there are no verses that teach that anyone is saved through election, and that election isn't even about salvation. It's about service, as ALL the examples of those identified as "elect" show quite easily.
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