Once Saved Always Saved: Fact or Fiction?

[HatGuy]

No it isn't. NT CLEARLY teaches salvation INCLUDES salvation from sin. Yes a believer can get caught in a sin but it won't go on forever.

I agree with this - salvation includes salvation from sin and I'm comfortable with the 1 John scriptures posted that the Christian's life can get to that point. (I am a fan of John Wesley's thoughts in this regard.) However, it seems to me that some Christians can choose to resist God's grace on this point and, at some stage - after a long, long time of stubbornness - God will give them over to their sin and they will lose out on the salvation God wants to do in them with regards to freeing them from the power of sin, although they will not lose out on their initial justification because that has been done already. This is how I read the warnings in scripture - for instance, Hebrews 3,4 warns that we should not have a heart of unbelief otherwise we will not reach God's Rest - which I take to mean to refer (amongst other things) to a life free from the power of sin, a life that lines up to what John describes in 1 John. Hebrews 6 is another version of this, that a person cannot be 'restored to repentance', i.e. God will let them remain in their sin. But this does not mean they are not justified or that they will go to hell, what it means is that they will live in the misery of living under the power of sin. That is a warning indeed!

I don't limit 'salvation' to mean only justification, but see it as a word that encompasses justification, sanctification (a completed sanctification), glorification. The latter two Christians can lose out on if they continue in unbelief, but not the first one. Hence I say "once justified, always justified" but not really "once saved, always fully saved." And so I aim to be faithful to what I see to be a theological thread throughout the church age across different traditions. There might be more agreement amongst you and I than is apparent because we might be using different words to convey the same idea.

He'll repent and fall down and repent and fall down - not just live as some claim is fine and dandy like he never got saved.

Yeah, I never claim that. In fact I think it's worse for the justified person to live in sin than the unjustified person. The book of Hebrews seems to imply this.

Sure believers can sin and will sin - you can see that in the NT but you don't have a single example of a believer in the NT who being called upon to repent and never does being assured of his salvation.

Given that the NT is made up mostly of epistles it is hard to find examples, but I think they are there. Were Ananias and Sapphira believers? If so they seem to have died in their sin without chance of repentance.

Tells me all I want to know that you have to fear me bringing scriptures in. An unbiased person seeing "that which is born of God" knows its talking about being born of God. I think there's a part of you that does too and thats a good thing. Now you just need to think about it more.

Thanks. I have no issue with those scriptures and 1 John is one of my favourite books as it encourages me to believe that God is going to make a real change in my inner life and desires, and that for me is really very good news. i do think about this A LOT. If you've managed to get there, please let me know, as I'd love to hear your testimony.

 

[HatGuy]

Children of God don't sin. I doubt you're perfect. Illiterate maybe but not sinless.

1 John 3:9 English Standard Version
No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

So how can you be a child of God and continue to twist scriptures?

Before you just go ahead and quote your scripture again and accuse me of twisting a scripture when all I did was posted a scripture, please tell me why John says we are ALREADY children of God in verse 1 and 2 before he gets to verse 9, and how these two ideas relate? That's what being an expositor is about - dealing with the whole passage.

 

[Matthew Twentyfour]

There are NO verses that teach that loss of belief equals loss of salvation. That is a fallacy. Unsupported by Scripture.

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For how can those who abandon their faith be brought back to repent again? They were once in God's light; they tasted heaven's gift and received their share of the Holy Spirit;5 they knew from experience that God's word is good, and they had felt the powers of the coming age. 6 And then they abandoned their faith! It is impossible to bring them back to repent again, because they are again crucifying the Son of God and exposing him to public shame.

Rev 2:16 Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.

Rev 2:22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.

Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

 

[JLB777]

that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."…

that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."…


JLB

 

[Matthew Twentyfour]

Before you just go ahead and quote your scripture again and accuse me of twisting a scripture when all I did was posted a scripture, please tell me why John says we are ALREADY children of God in verse 1 and 2 before he gets to verse 9, and how these two ideas relate? That's what being an expositor is about - dealing with the whole passage.

That's because your OSAS belief makes you think Romans 10:9 is all you need to do to be save.

 

[HatGuy]

That's because your OSAS belief makes you think Romans 10:9 is all you need to do to be save.

I've offered no commentary on Rom 10:9 in this thread. That has nothing to do with my question which is: Please explain to me how 1 John 3:1,2 says we are already children of God and how that relates to verse 9.

 

[Matthew Twentyfour]

I've offered no commentary on Rom 10:9 in this thread. That has nothing to do with my question which is: Please explain to me how 1 John 3:1,2 says we are already children of God and how that relates to verse 9.

Than try this. Christ is the author and finisher of your faith. When are you born again? If you can't figure it out, it's because you're not born again.

 

[Matthew Twentyfour]

I've offered no commentary on Rom 10:9 in this thread. That has nothing to do with my question which is: Please explain to me how 1 John 3:1,2 says we are already children of God and how that relates to verse 9.

Or try this one. How many OSASer do you know who can ask Christ for anything and receive it?

John 14:13-14
13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.

Here's the answer. Only when you're born again will Christ give you everything you ask.

How many times have you had unanswered prayers?

 

[gigman7]

Admit OSAS is a false doctrine and I'll post a link to the person that responded. Dare to take the challenge?

Why would I admit that and it not be true? OSAS is a true doctrine. My point was that there is no one who has been saved and lost his salvation. There are people who thought they were saved and weren't. But, that doesn't mean they lost their salvation.

 

[gigman7]

Here's what you don't get. You don't become a child of God by professing Christ as lord and savior and accepting His gift of salvation. Plus you're wrong too. A child of God doesn't practise sin.

You're a child of God after your transformation. You only missed it by the length of a lifetime. Here's proof, have you stopped sinning? Read'em and weep.

1 John 3:9 English Standard Version
No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

You are wrong. I do get it. I have eveon said it many times. But, yes, we do sin after we are saved. None of us go without sinning. But as Christians, we don't sin because we just want to go out and sin all the time. That's the difference. Just because we sin doesn't make us no longer a Christian.

 

[Butch5]

More utter garbage and nonsense. I can see why with thousands of post you have like 4 likes. You interpret the scriptures by the meaning of the Hebrew and greek words and the context not your present world view.

"More utter garbage and nonsense. I can see why with thousands of post you have like 4 likes." This is the fallacy of Appea; to popularity"

More fallacies. You're reasoning is flawed. All evidence is filtered through one's world view. That's why a creationist and an evolutionist can look at the same evidence and draw different conclusions. A little less pride and a little more consideration go a long way.

No because we have people like you who see a verse clearly say something and can't deal with it so they do like you are doing try and run away from truth. Its to be TOTALLY expected since if sinner s didn't resist Bible truth the whole world would be saved

This is the fallacy of Circumstantial Ad Hominem.

So, can we assume that you resist Bible truth?

By that piece of silliness I don't even have to respond to what you say since you typed it and typed words cant speak. See how stupid that logic is??? Its just word games because you can't answer the verses.

This is the fallacy of Avoiding the Issue.

Call it whatever you want but here it is again...try answering it next time

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God."
1 John 3:9

and this

"We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them."
1 john 5:18

Once again you post passages without saying how you understand them. I suspect this is because by not explaining you don't have to worry that someone will prove you wrong. I don't know why you keep posting them. They say nothing at all about OSAS. They don't even speak of being saved. They address the issue of sin.

 

[Butch5]

Too bad. You'll just have to live with it. Just like I have to live with you posting your false gospel

Pride goeth before a fall. It's not I that has a false Gospel. What I believe is found plainly stated in the Scriptures. My doctrines are not drawn from inferences.

 

[gigman7]

I think part of the problem here is that some have a confusion of what being a Christian means. It doesn't necessarily mean being saved. There are three meanings to the word Christian. First, being a Christian means believing that Jesus is the Son of God. The second is that you have accepted Him as your savior. The third meaning is being "Christ like". No, none of us are really "Christ like" but we strive to be. We have Christ like values and goals.

Just because you believe and confess that Jesus is the Son of God doesn't make you saved. Yes, there will be believers who never get saved and do not make it to Heaven. That does not mean they lost their salvation. They never had it. That is what Jesus means when he says some will not enter into Heaven. But, once you are saved by His grace, you have salvation for eternity.

I just can't understand how some on here believe they never sin. We ALL sin. Thank God that doesn't lose my salvation because if it did, we would all be going to Hell.

 

[MikeEnders]

So, you don't think Hebrews was written to Hebrew Christians?

It appears that the author (the evidence suggests Paul) was addressing a particular community of Christians with whom he was personally acquainted. He was aware of their having endured persecution (10:32,33; 12:4), as well as their present situation (5:12; 6:9; 13:17),

If you go by that then your take on the passage would be dead because Paul says he didn't think what he wrote in that passage even applies to the people he was writing it to.

"Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case--the things that have to do with salvation"
Hebrews 6:9

why people shut their eyes after verse 8 I have no idea but yep right there in verse 9 the whole "he was writing this to those who he knew was Christians" dies - he point blank says he was convinced that the general warning did NOT apply to them. further the better things he says he is confident they have has to do with salvation - (which is a clue that he was not talking about salvation before)

Tasting the good word is what anyone does when they have heard enough of it, tasting powers of the age to come is a reference to miracles - its "dunamis" in the greek. the word used for miracles in most places in the NT. their situation in regard to miracles and seeing gifts of the Holy Spirit (people healed, fulfilled prophecy signs and wonders) is spoken of in Hebrews 2

"how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will."

The first century Jerusalem inhabitant had a rich display of the wonders of miracles and signs and wonders (thats why later they are compared to those who were in the wilderness who had seen the signs and wonders while with Moses) . Thats how they tasted the powers of the age to come mentioned in Hebrews 6. So with great revelation comes great responsibility. If you take a step back you will see What Hebrews 6 is saying. If you see it all hear it all taste it all and the only thing happening is

" it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned."

Then its hopeless. After every miracle you had seen and all the glory of God though the gifts of the spirit you had seen or partaken of you don't respond with any real fruit then nothing will bring you to repentance. In essence you have committed the blasphemy of the spirit Jesus said was the only sin no one comes back from. Here's the thing though The pharisee's Jesus spoke to about that sin were never believers!!

So the anti OSAS crew has another HUGE issue here - Hebrew 6 is a dead end. The passage says its impossible for them ever to be forgiven again because its impossible to be brought to repentance. Jesus said every kind of sin will be forgiven with only one sin being as Mark puts it - an eternal (never ending) sin. He does not say two or three kinds of sin - JUST ONE. He says ALL/WHATSOEVER sin beside that one will have people who have been forgiven for doing

So anyone who can count knows that Hebrews 6 HAS TO BE a blasphemy of the spirit like sin. The problem for the anti OSAS crew is we already KNOW from the pharisees that that kind of sin can be committed by some one NEVER SAVED.

I have already shown that the word enlighteneth does not pertain to Christians exclusively by showing it used of the whole world in John 1. Theres only one phrase left anyone could get the meaning Christian out of and I will deal with that in my next post

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

The Faith part isn't different, but the idea that you then have to earn your admission to heaven and can lose it at any time after conversion is a really big deal...and difference.

Sola Fide is the central doctrine of Protestants. It is 'faith alone', but also implicates a sort of personal, untouchable relationship between a person and God where no bishops are necessary.
And it's self-evident.

OSAS really is frivolous to me. Like Infusion, the salvific notion of Catholicism, the theologies are just troublesome to Christianity as a whole.

 

[Albion]

Sola Fide is the central doctrine of Protestants. It is 'faith alone', but also implicates a sort of personal, untouchable relationship between a person and God where no bishops are necessary.

Oh, no, it doesn't.

OSAS really is frivolous to me.

To each his own, I suppose, but how the difference between being saved by a relationship with the one who paid the price for our sins and, on the other hand, thinking we must earn our salvation by our own works...

...seems to me to be ANYTHING BUT a triviality.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

Oh, no, it doesn't.

Read Luther's works. The way church theology goes about it today, treating it as a specific technicality, is very different then how he went about it. It's pretty wonderful, actually, some of the most liberating things I've heard have come from Luther's mouth.. there's a reason, in other words, why he is so venerated. He blew the cap off the entire trap of Catholicism.

 

[Albion]

Read Luther's works.

Thanks. Been there and done that.

 

[AVBunyan]

1. paul spoke of believers in danger and decived if they thought they would enter the kingdom of God 1 Cor 6:9,10.

2.Paul spoke of a great falling away in the end times 2 Thess.

3.But keep in Mind Judas in Matthew 10 and Acts 1. He was a sheep sent to the lost sheep according to Jesus and he fell by transgression and was blotted out of the book of the living.

4. 4. 1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

5. 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

6. 6. "4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." Galatians 5:4
Galatians 4:20

Just don't have time or patience anymore for all of this for you pull passages from Paul and other places that do not deal with the saint in the body of Christ today (Yes, I know you do not undestand this) - so here we go anyway:
1. Ever bother to read the next verse? No? Ok I'll show it to you: 11, And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. Paul said they were those people till they got saved. You see friend God looks at the saint positionally and so does Paul. In God's eyes a saint can do those things but he is not one of those things - he is a saint. You have no understanding of positional truth.

2. Dealing with these truths in the beginning of the tribualtion - the falling away is not a falling a way from truth and I wil not take the time here to expound what it is for you are blinded to those truths.

3. Judas was a devil John 6:70 - devils do not get saved.

4. You privately interpret departing from the faith as losing salvation - who taught you that? You think a saint is free from being seduced, departing, etc.?

5. Again - doctrinally dealing with tribulation times where a faith/works set up is in place - Yes, I know you are clueless here - II Tm. 2:15.

6. Mercy - Paul is saying that if one is seeking to be justified by works then he has fallen from grace - He is not talking about a saint but a lost man seeking the law from justfication.

Bottom line - you want to believe one can to lose your so you can stand before God and tell him what a fine fella you'ved been! If all those verses were dealing with a loss of salvation then they would conflict with the many verses in Paul that clearly support the security of the believer.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"So, I'll ask again, where does Scripture teach that eternal life can be revoked/removed/lost, our new birth can be undoned?

Very much so. Yet, none of the things listed come close to saying that any part of salvation can be undone."

Why do you ignore hebrews 6?

Are you kidding?? Why do you reject Rom 5:5-17 and Rom 6:23 with Rom 11:29???

Unless you accept a total contradiction in Scripture, which I don't.