Once Saved Always Saved: Fact or Fiction?

[AVBunyan]

This issue has been run in the ground for centuries. There are reasons people struggle with eternal security.

1. Because Satan has so many counterfeit bibles a person who is dead set on losing his salvation can always find a bible somewhere that will support his viewpoint. I mean there are 75 or more versions so just find one that supports your heresy. Try sticking with the one God wrote, the King James Bible.

2. Because a person doesn’t know how to rightly divide the word of truth then he goes to passages that doctrinally don’t have anything to do with a saved/blood-bought, redeemed saint in the body of CHrist. Instead of going to the Pauline epistles which deal with the saint today (Rom. – Phil.) he goes running to passages that…

a. deals with Jews under the law (Exo. thru John) where salvation is conditional upon his faith and his adherence to the Mosaic Law and

b. Hebrews thru Revelation which doctrinally deals with the future great tribulation, where again salvation is conditional upon his faith and works.
For example if one wants to go to hell then Matt. 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved is as good as one can find. For here the end does not mean the end of your life but the end of a time period, the 7 year tribulation where it is a faith/works setup. Or he can go to Heb. 3 (written to Hebrews, not the body of Christ) where entering into a rest at the end of the 7 year tribulation where again, you have a faith/works setup. There are many more of these passages like this that folks use to justify losing it but these passages are written to a Jew under the law before the age of grace or to the Jew working his way thru the 7 year tribulation.

3. He often goes to Paul and misinterprets the passage, for ex. Phil. 2:12 where one is told to work out his salvation with fear and trembling and then fails to read the next verse which declares that it is God which will do the work. Or he can go to the famous Rom. 11:22 where the individual is not being discussed but a nation. Or he can butcher I Cor. 9:27 where Paul is not worried about being cast away from God’s grace but being cast out of the ministry. Or he can trip over Gal. 5: 4 where Paul is saying that if you want to try and work your way to heaven then you missed grace.

So there are many passages that teach salvation is conditional just find a Jew under the law or working his way to heave n during the 7 year tribulation.

The “lose it” will search everywhere to lose it while ignoring the clear passages in Paul which clearly teach salvation is secure in Christ, for ex.:

1. Eph. 2:8, 9

2. Eph. 1:13 - In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

3. The Holy Spirit put you in the actual body of Christ II Cor. 5:17, 12:13 and then according to Eph. 2:6 - And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: - Would you mind telling me how you are going to get out of Christ’s body (Eph. 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bone,) and then finally, jump out of heaven under your own power?

4. Works are clearly not a part of one’s salvation today – Tit. 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; and Rom. 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

5. The average saint today has no idea what actually happened to him doctrinally at salvation – He just think she made a commitment to Christ or asked Jesus into his heart, etc. You are redeemed and forgiven Col. 1:14; You are justified by the faith of Christ – Rom. 3:24; You are glorified Rom. 8:30; Sanctified I Cor. 1:30;

Now please tell me how you are going to undo points 3-5 by yourself. I’m listening.

6. You don’t even live by your faith Gal. 2:20

I just scratched the surface on Pauls’ epistles.

Folks real simple – either you are trusting Christ alone or yourself. If you think you can lose it then you are counting on you to do something to keep it or you are counting on you to keep from doing something in order to keep it – either way you are counting on you and you have rejected Christ!

So – instead of spending all your time in the OT, the Gospels and the tribulation spend a little time in the books written by the Paul for today written to saints in the body of Christ.

God bless!

 

[Lucky_Skunk]

You believe wrong.

The Bible is replete with verses that can only be understood as teaching that you can indeed loose your salvation.

Here's some (again!!!)

(1) JN 15:1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit,

15:5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 IF ANYONE DOES NOT REMAIN IN ME, HE IS LIKE A BRANCH THAT IS THROWN AWAY AND WITHERS; SUCH BRANCHES ARE PICKED UP, THROWN INTO THE FIRE AND BURNED.

(2) RO 11:17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For IF GOD DID NOT SPARE THE NATURAL BRANCHES, HE WILL NOT SPARE YOU EITHER.

22 CONSIDER THEREFORE THE KINDNESS AND STERNNESS OF GOD: STERNNESS TO THOSE WHO FELL, BUT KINDNESS TO YOU, PROVIDED THAT YOU CONTINUE IN HIS KINDNESS. OTHERWISE, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF.

(3)1CO 9:27 No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

(4) 1CO 10:12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!

(5) COL 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now HE HAS RECONCILED YOU BY CHRIST'S PHYSICAL BODY THROUGH DEATH TO PRESENT YOU HOLY IN HIS SIGHT, WITHOUT BLEMISH AND FREE FROM ACCUSATION-- 23 IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

(6) HEB 3:12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14 WE HAVE COME TO SHARE IN CHRIST IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST.

(7) HEB 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 IF THEY FALL AWAY, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting himto public disgrace.

(8) PHP 3:7 But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. 10 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.

PHP 3:12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

(9)2PE 1:5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

2PE 1:10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For IFYOU DO THESE THINGS, YOU WILL NEVER FALL,

(10) 2PE 2: 20 IF THEY HAVE ESCAPED THE CORRUPTION OF THE WORLD BY KNOWING OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST AND ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED IN IT AND OVERCOME, THEY ARE WORSE OFF AT THE END THAN THEY WERE AT THE BEGINNING. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

(11) EZE 18:24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.”

Okay, so I'll ask again....At what point are you not Christian enough, or not following Jesus enough, that you can lose your salvation? Are there any verses in the bible that tell us where we need to be at to retain our salvation?

Furthermore, if there isn't a way to "measure" how saved we are in the Bible from day to day, don't you think that is an incredibly cruel thing for God to do to his children?

 

[MikeEnders]

They're idiots, but still born again and still have eternal life. Where's the evidence to oppose this?

Its right here

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
1 john 3:18

Clear and obvious.

 

[Lucky_Skunk]

I like how in John 10:28, Jesus said "I give them eternal life and they shall never perish..".

Notice how Jesus doesn't go on to say "except if....unless....etc."

If we could lose our salvation, don't you think our lord would have put a ginormous disclaimer with that statement?

 

[EmSw]

What we have forgotten is that the Lord and the early church expected the wheat would continue with the tares. Rather than either accepting or rejecting Christ the parable of the sower makes clear you can receive with great Joy but no root and end up lost bearing no fruit. Someone can get a lot of enlightenment and even seem to be a believer but not be.

Where is the security in this statement? This would include any and all who profess Jesus.

 

[MikeEnders]

Where is the security in this statement? This would include any and all who profess Jesus.

No it doesn't. As the parable of the sower goes on to say there are those who accept Christ, persevere, are tested and show fruit and prove that they have roots. Security is not for someone who raised their hands at church or even walked up an aisle. security is for those who have abided with Christ after doing so.

 

[MikeEnders]

ATTENTION

the real problem I see in this thread is that people are taking the idea of once saved always saved without what the bible teaches - that real believers persevere, they hold on, they can have faith wane to almost nothing (nearly eclipsed as Jesus tells peter would happen on the night he is betrayed) but they hang in because their seed remains in them

Once saved always saved IS scriptural but it cannot be taken without the teaching that when you are really saved something changes so deep within you that you will never be able to let go again. It is TOTALLY unbiblical to teach that because someone raised their hands in church or said a prayer they can then go on living like the Devil and can be assured of Eternal Life. You can't not be forever changed when the God of the universe really steps into and owns your being.

its no different from any real deep experience - being a dad has completely changed my life. It altered me in such a way I can never go back to before I was a dad. Salvation is even more powerful than that so if you can come back from that and be the same then it didn't really happen.

Mind you you can find yourself in dark places and there ARE numerous places where Christians are called to repent of sin but a real christian HATES living in sin and no matter how much he falls into it he always fights , gets out and fights and gets out and ultimately overcomes the world

"For a righteous man falls seven times, and rises again"
Proverbs 24;16

 

[Lucky_Skunk]

No it doesn't. As the parable of the sower goes on to say there are those who accept Christ, persevere, are tested and show fruit and prove that they have roots. Security is not for someone who raised their hands at church or even walked up an aisle. security is for those who have abided with Christ after doing so.[/QUOTE]
LOL.....And all this time I thought salvation was a gift from God, not of works, lest any man should boast.

It never ceases to amaze me how we want to insert ourselves into a gift from God. Have you ever why Jesus specifically used the the phrase "Born Again" to Nicodemus, and not another phrase that equated to "Turn over a new leaf.".

I know.....as a sinner with a human nature, and an infused sense of quid pro quo, it's hard to fathom God's Grace. Where once we ask, Jesus gives without provisos.

Maybe this will help explain it better:

 

[gordonhooker]

Love wins....

 

[MikeEnders]

LOL.....And all this time I thought salvation was a gift from God, not of works, lest any man should boast.

It never ceases to amaze me how we want to insert ourselves into a gift from God. Have you ever why Jesus specifically used the the phrase "Born Again" to Nicodemus, and not another phrase that equated to "Turn over a new leaf.".

You can show ten videos but if you don't read what people write you will never learn whats really in the Bible. I said nothing about working to turn over a new leaf. You just made that up in your head to suit yourself . The person who perseveres is not earning salvation by persevering. Its the power of the salvation he already possesses and God in his life that causes him to persevere
.
This idea that salvation isn't salvation from sin but only its consequences is a load of garbage straight from the pit of hell. Christ died for me to be free from being bound by sin not so i would be still bound but on my way to heaven.

Actually Stanley is a good Bible teacher I doubt he would be claiming you can live like the devil and still be saved. But even if he is (don't have time to watch every video someone on the internet says I should watch) I get my bible teachings from the bible not youtube

""No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God."
I john 3:9

 

[Jonathan Lankford]

Hebrews 6
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

 

[MikeEnders]

Hebrews 6
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

People always stop at 8 but should Keep going and they will see this is not a saved and lsot passage for truly born again

"9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way."

That and the fact that the land bears nothing but thorns and thistles instead of fruit that would come from a real believer are two dead give always that the writer is NOT talking about believers he had confidence had things that were connected to salvation

 

[gigman7]

Its right here

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
1 john 3:18

Clear and obvious.

Says nothing about losing your salvation.

 

[MikeEnders]

Says nothing about losing your salvation.

Didn't say it did but it sure does say if you don't believe you are condemned already. People can have doubts which is weak belief. The disciples had that all the time but to reject Christ completely never repent and be going to heaven not trusting in christ at all? Nope the Bible does not teach that and thats a misapplication of Eternal security. A real born again person will never completely renounce his faith and/or repent of it. If anyone dies in that state they were never truly saved.

 

[gigman7]

Didn't say it did but it sure does say if you don't believe you are condemned already. People can have doubts which is weak belief. The disciples had that all the time but to reject Christ completely never repent and be going to heaven not trusting in christ at all? Nope the Bible does not teach that and thats a misapplication of Eternal security. A real born again person will never completely renounce his faith and/or repent of it. If anyone dies in that state they were never truly saved.

Which means you never were saved.

 

[MikeEnders]

Which means you never were saved.

Totally agree. thats what I was saying

 

[greened67]

If we become saved by grace, we stay saved by grace. As there is not anything we can do to become saved but to believe in our hearts and confess with our mouths the Lord Jesus, we can't do anything to reverse it. If you belong to Him, you are secure. When Jesus saves you, you don't become perfect. You become righteous and that is only through His shed blood.

 

[Marvin Knox]

IT'S A FACT

 

[fatherjimparker]

Okay, so I'll ask again....At what point are you not Christian enough, or not following Jesus enough, that you can lose your salvation?

Your question suggests a misunderstanding of "salvation" or just sarcasm. I can't tell which. (one of the shortcomings of reading posts)

There is no such thing as "not Christian enough." Either you are Christian or you aren't.

Neither is there such a thing as "following Jesus enough." Either you are following or you are not.

Dabbling in Christianity is not a degree of "being Christian enough" or of "following Jesus enough." It's being the "lukewarm" believer that Jesus vomits out of His mouth at Rev. 3 in His letter to the church of Laodicea.

[/QUOTE]Are there any verses in the bible that tell us where we need to be at to retain our salvation?[/QUOTE]

Sure, Jesus' own words: "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon." (Luke 16:13; Mat 6:24)

Pick one, God or Mammon, and then be there.

[/QUOTE]Furthermore, if there isn't a way to "measure" how saved we are in the Bible from day to day, don't you think that is an incredibly cruel thing for God to do to his children?[/QUOTE]

Of course there is no such measure. Either you are or you are not saved.

However, the Bible tells us many times that, once saved, a person needs to remain on the course, the "straight and narrow way", or, as Paul put it, "finish the race." Failure to do so because of choice or neglect will result in not reaching the goal. (eternal life, salvation, the kingdom of heaven, etc.)

To be finally saved, when this life is over, one has to stay the course.

A person can be on course (which many mistake as having been saved) and then just quit. Those are the people who are represented by the seed sown on rocky soil in the parable of the sower. They believed but fell away under persecution.

Salvation is not an event. It is a life-long process. And, no, we don't get saved and then start being sanctified. They are the same process with the same goal and it doesn't matter how much "sanctification" you have gathered; the reward is the same. The parable of the man with the vineyard, who hired workers at different times during the day, tells us that we all get the same reward for our work. But we all have to work until the day's work is done. You leave early, you get no pay.

People are finally saved IF....

COL1:21-23 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight —IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

HEB 3:14 WE HAVE COME TO SHARE IN CHRIST IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST.

2PE 1:5-10 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For IF YOU DO THESE THINGS, YOU WILL NEVER FALL,

EZE 18:24 "But IF a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, HE WILL DIE.”


The word "if", in this context, tells us that there are two possible outcomes: (1) salvation and (2) loss of salvation.

 

[fatherjimparker]

If we become saved by grace, we stay saved by grace. As there is not anything we can do to become saved but to believe in our hearts and confess with our mouths the Lord Jesus, we can't do anything to reverse it. If you belong to Him, you are secure. When Jesus saves you, you don't become perfect. You become righteous and that is only through His shed blood.

Grace is what God does for us.

It does not logically follow that we can't do anything to reverse our situation.

Paul is in no way stating that being "saved by grace" creates an irreversible condition. That is going way beyond what the scriptures say.

You most certainly can reverse it. Just walk away; go back to serving mammon.

There is absolutely nothing in that passage that indicates a believer cannot leave the path of salvation.