this thread just gets stranger and stranger. How can an atheist not be continually sinning just for being an atheist?
Weird and its getting tedious and boring
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How does this justify your argument for OSAS?
Your arguments can also be applied to many non-Christians that don't sin because they just want to go out and sin all the time.
Example: Just because an atheist does not sin doesn't make him a Christian either.
A. The quote you posted from me is in the context of Matthew Twentyfour saying we only become children of God when we are "transformed" and this takes a lifetime (it sounded like he was saying it happens when we die). Given that he liked your post, I'd really like for him to clarify what he is saying there. If he agrees with your post here and believes that we become children of God at death, then can we also be disinherited after death? Matthew Twentyfour must mean something else, but he seems to be avoiding being clear about this.Human children are sometimes disinherited by their biological parents for various reasons.
God does indeed disinherit His adopted children for their disobedience.
A. The quote you posted from me is in the context of Matthew Twentyfour saying we only become children of God when we are "transformed" and this takes a lifetime (it sounded like he was saying it happens when we die). Given that he liked your post, I'd really like for him to clarify what he is saying there. If he agrees with your post here and believes that we become children of God at death, then can we also be disinherited after death? Matthew Twentyfour must mean something else, but he seems to be avoiding being clear about this.
B. When fallen human beings with limited authority and power and inability to change hearts disinherit their children it does not follow that the perfect God does too.
C. The Prodigal Son parable says nothing about the father disinheriting the son. I think Jesus must have used the picture of father-son relationship rather deliberately.
D. In Roman adoption you could not disinherit yyours on.
E. Biological parents might be able to disinherit their son, but they can never do anything about biology. A son is still a son.
Your scriptures have to do with inheritance, being perfected, etc. I'm waiting for someone to show where in Matt 7 it indicates the goats were once also sheep. Any ideas where it says that?
When deciding on this issue I realized none of the pictures used in referring to justification are pictures that indicate a reversal can happen. If you subscribe to forensic justification, even that legal picture indicates something that cannot be undone (a judge does not haul you back to court if someone paid your fine already).
a judge does not haul you back to court if someone paid your fine already).
Good scripture. Never thought of that one! Thank you. Requires more study on my part if I go that route.The judge does haul you back to court and reverse's his earlier ruling to forgive you if you yourself do not forgive others...
32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me.33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses. Matthew 18:32-35
JLB
This sounds like a Keswick approach to holiness. I kind of agree but also don't. Romans 7, for example, is about Paul's life under law, and what it's like to go back under law - frustrating. But we rather live in the Spirit as we are dead to law and sin.Our old man or nature is like a pig or goat or any other unclean animal we can think of. When we come to Christ we are clean, but like a pig washed the cleaning is inward not outward. Our old nature , or the old man has to be crucified. We don't live in the old man, but in the new man where Christ dwells in our heart by faith. If a man goes back into sin and the flesh it is like a pig that was washed going back to his old nature.
That's somewhat how I understand it. So each person has the old man and the new man, the old man is the flesh and to live in that is sin. the new man is in the spirit in Christ and to live in that is life. Paul says it like this,
"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin...12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God." (Romans 6:6, 12,13)
and
"13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." (Romans 8:13)
"
Romans 7:18
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing
this thread just gets stranger and stranger. How can an atheist not be continually sinning just for being an atheist?
Weird and its getting tedious and boring
Why don't you believe OSAS but "rely on Christ". How much are you trusting Him to keep you saved? You see, either one's trust is fully IN Christ for salvation, or it's devided between what He did for you and what you must also do for yourself, or Him. Either way, that is not the faith found in the Bible. Either your trust in Him is 100% or you don't have saving faith.Yeah I sin, I'm a sinner. I don't believe in OSAS but I rely on Christ who redeems me through repentance. I walk with and rely on Christ. Can you say the same?
What confusion! No one is perfect, ok? I cited 1 Jn 1:8 so your question was quite out of line. Second, OSAS doesn't mean "never having to recognize our sins". That is absurd. OSAS means we are secure in our relationship with Christ. OSAS ALWAYS teaches that we must continually confess our sins for cleansing (1 Jn 1:9) and fellowship. And third, no one "relies on their own justification". It is God's justification that we rely on, not our own.Do you think you're perfect because you're once saved always save never having to recognize your sins but fully rely on your own justification?
Does this mean that you don't consider yourself saved yet? When will that occur?I can also say I'm not saved till He declares my salvation.
Heavens, no. I'd never say that! I can say with the full confidence of Scripture that I WAS saved WHEN I believed in Jesus Christ for eternal life. And I'm still saved, and will continue to be saved forever. Can you say the same?Can you say the same?
So, you aren't familiar with the meaning of eisegesis, huh? There is no eisegesis in my post about eternal life being irrevocable. Paul defined eternal life as a gift of God BEFORE he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that Rom 11:29 is about what Paul defined as gifts in Romans before that verse.Eisegesis refutes nothing.
Seriously? Here it is again: Paul noted spiritual gifts in 1:11. They are irrevocable because they are from God. Paul defined justification as a gift of God in Rom 5:15-17, and eternal life as a gift of God in 6:23.It only shows your true nature. There's nothing in all of Romans 11 that said eternal life is irrevocable.
The proof is in the pudding: 1:11, 5:15-17 and 6:23. These are the gifts that Paul noted before he wrote 11:29. Nothing else.You've been asked numerous times to prove your argument but has never proven to anyone the gifts in Romans 11:29 implies eternal life.
Please show me in ch 11 where Paul defined blessings promised to the Jews as gifts.You're just rejecting what Paul said the gifts (blessings originally promised to the Jews) are
No, what is truly preposterous is that you think that I think this. No one ever received eternal life under the law. Eternal life is received ONLY through faith in Christ. For the OT Jews, it was faith in the Messiah.Romans 11:1-2
1 I ask, then: Did God reject his own people? Certainly not! I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people, whom he chose from the beginning. You know what the scripture says in the passage where Elijah pleads with God against Israel:
Romans 11:26-29
26 And this is how all Israel will be saved. As the scripture says,
“The Savior will come from Zion28 Because they reject the Good News, the Jews are God's enemies for the sake of you Gentiles. But because of God's choice, they are his friends because of their ancestors. 29 For God does not change his mind about whom he chooses and blesses.
and remove all wickedness from the descendants of Jacob.
27 I will make this covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
FREEGRACE2,
QUESTION: If Romans 11:29 is about eternal life, why would God grant eternal life to the Israelites who are under the law and can't save themselves by their works?
What's preposterous is you thinking the Israelites can have eternal life under the law.
Really quite pathetic. Your post stumps no one, but does reveal how poorly you've understood my posts.And your answer is, Once Stumped Always Stumped.
Here let's do this again. Is your faith not your belief?
It said in Hebrews if you abandon your faith, you cannot come to repentance.
Actually, the childish technique of bolding in red adds nothing.Is it easier to read Hebrews in big bold red letter?
I find it sad that not coming back to repent seems to equal loss of salvation, esp since there is NO mention in this or any other passage about anyone losing their salvation. And there are plenty of people in the Bible who were obviously saved and fell hard before they died. Yet, not any mention of losing salvation. Not even the Exodus generation.Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For how can those who abandon their faith be brought back to repent again? They were once in God's light; they tasted heaven's gift and received their share of the Holy Spirit;5 they knew from experience that God's word is good, and they had felt the powers of the coming age. 6 And then they abandoned their faith! It is impossible to bring them back to repent again, because they are again crucifying the Son of God and exposing him to public shame.
Rev 2:16 Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.
Rev 2:22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.
Please explain.You forgot the 3rd conclusion.
I don't understand your posts. And maybe you don't understand Paul. The jailer directly asked Paul what he MUST DO to be saved. And Paul's answer was just as clear and direct: believe (aorist tense) and you will be saved.You don't understand Paul.
So God created and expanded hell for nothing? Let me guess, you must think God made the book of life and lake of fire for something leisure like a Summer camp-outs?
I'm truly sorry for your naivety, but pick out any liberal protestant church who thinks one is saved by doing "good works" or catholics who think the same.What non-Christian do you know would call Jesus as their lord or perform any acts "In His name?"
Anyone who is demon possessed. Those familiar with the Bible are quite aware of what Acts 19:13-18 is about: unbelievers casting out demons.What non-Christians do you know perform miracles or prophecies in the name of Christ?
Of course I do.Do you not end your prayer in Jesus' name?
1. Do you beleive all the bible is doctrinally for you today? Simple Yes or No will do.You are on shaky ground if you walk in sin and say you are still saved.
It's not I that isn't getting this. When one is born again, we don't lose the old sin nature. But we do get a new spiritual nature. And you've actually made my point. The relationship between birth parent and child cannot be broken. That was my point.Unfortunately you don't even get your own analogy. The child would always have the nature of the parent due to sharing the DNA so he would not be able to shake those inherited characteristics.
John NEVER said that a believer cannot sin. That would be sinless perfection. And John had already noted in 1 Jn 1:8 that we all continue to sin.As john teaches a believer inherits the seed so he cannot sin AND because he is born of God he must overcome.
Why don't you believe OSAS but "rely on Christ". How much are you trusting Him to keep you saved? You see, either one's trust is fully IN Christ for salvation, or it's devided between what He did for you and what you must also do for yourself, or Him. Either way, that is not the faith found in the Bible. Either your trust in Him is 100% or you don't have saving faith.
We are BORN AGAIN and are NEW CREATURES. Your view is sadly mistaken.Believers are adopted children by the way we are not the only begotten of the Father as Jesus.
This is totally confused. The prodigal parable wasn't about salvation but about fellowship.And even if a man is a son he can be dead when left the house as the prodigal son was and alive again when he comes back. If he is dead, then he is not in salavtion.
Apparently your confusion continues, since your claim is 100% false.I'm glad to see you finally understand now why OSAS is a false doctrine.
That they could lose eternal life? Please cite the exact verse to support your opinion.Paul warned the Galatians Christians of this very thing.
Once again, nothing here about loss of savation. When will someone from the insecurity crowd cite a verse that actually says something about loss of salvation?I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-9
JLB
"This needs to be addressed. Disinheriting by parents doesn't change the RELATIONSHIP. The child REMAINS the birth child. The DNA does NOT change. What changes is the FELLOWSHIP between parent and child.
That's what the insecurity crowd seems not to get. ."
We are BORN AGAIN and are NEW CREATURES. Your view is sadly mistaken.
I said this:
"Why don't you believe OSAS but "rely on Christ". How much are you trusting Him to keep you saved? You see, either one's trust is fully IN Christ for salvation, or it's devided between what He did for you and what you must also do for yourself, or Him. Either way, that is not the faith found in the Bible. Either your trust in Him is 100% or you don't have saving faith."
Apparently your confusion continues, since your claim is 100% false.
That they could lose eternal life? Please cite the exact verse to support your opinion.
Once again, nothing here about loss of savation. When will someone from the insecurity crowd cite a verse that actually says something about loss of salvation?
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